Comparison insanity must stop !!

What is photography?
Not everybody who visits this website is a legend in their own mind nor thinks of himself as the next Ansel Adams. Photography is many things to many people. Some people want a camera with the features and versatility to allow them to capture important moments, places, and people in their lives, and not just seek to capture award winning photos.

People want a camera that helps them accomplish their goals instead of hindering them. You argue that the hoice of camera is unimportant. Most people are laughing at your so-called insight.

I you want to impress us with your genius and photographic ability as well as with how little you depend on any special camera features or abilities, perhaps you can post some nice rebel flag photos taken with a disposable $15 camera instead of those shot with a camera full of "unnecessary features" like the G2.
It is the study of light, shadow and composition, I don't give a
damn what camera you use. You mentioned that the "Nikon 5700 is
hardly my idea of versatile or convenient". Is that because you own
one or is this just your opinion?
That is my assessment, based on the camera's published specs and reviews as well as my trying one out for a week before returning it. It doesn't mean that the camera cannot capture good images, it only means that it will not give you the same level of convenience and versatility as other cameras unless you have some very narrowly defined needs.

The original poster realized that image quality comparisons between these cameras (G3 & 717) is a pointless exercise in hair splitting, and that the final decision should boil down to price and features instead. He was seeking advice on real world advantages that one camera might have over the other to help him decide which is best for him, so that he could be happy with his decision and not regret it later after discovering some little known issue after the fact.

You essentially mocked his request by insinuating that the skill of the photographer is the ONLY thing that matters and that the choice of which camera to buy is irrelevant. This is pure rubbish and you know it, or else you wouldn't be using a G2.

I used the Nikon as an example of a camera that has many flaws and which I would not recommend to anyone. I have listed them elsewhere (as have others) and I will not post them again just for your convenience. Surely a prodigy such as yourself can use the search function to find them and comment on them specifically if you wish.
If I were in the market for a
camera, I would want to hear advice from a photographer who could
back up what he/she says
I'd prefer the opinons of a well-meaning person who offered some concrete and verifiable facts, arguments, and observations over the simpliified ramblings of some conceited photo snob telling me that camera choice is entirely irrelevant.
This
website is titled "Digital Photography Review" not "Digital Camera
Review".
Hate to break the news to you, but 90% of the discussions and content of this site revolves around camera comparisons. If you think otherwise, you're either dellusional or you haven't really been reading much.
 
But.... if any of you crack dealers out there has that FINAL PIECE
OF UNDISPUTABLE INFOMRATION that will give me the ultimate high of
knowing which of these two cameras is best.... PLEASE, I'll take a
dime bag!
Neither of these two cameras is "best." They're both excellent and very closely mactched in features and capabilities. The final choice boils down to price and your preference for any specific features unique to one camera or the other.

The 717 has a little bit more resolution, a little bit longer zoom, significantly wider aperture at the telephoto setting, a little bit better AF performance in low light.

But it has a bulkier body design that is harder to carry or store, and uses Memory Sticks that are limited to 128 MP capacities.

The G3 has a more compact and more conventional body design, can be operated with one hand if necessary, has a swiveling LCD that is a bit more versatile than the 717's swivelling lens, includes a remote control, uses CF cards and MicroDrives that are cheaper and have much larger capacities than Memory Sticks, somewhat easier access to more controls and functions, the option of saving images in RAW mode, a slightly better selection of flashes and lenses, and has a little bit better battery life.

But it has a little less zoom range, a little bit less resolution, a little bit less aperture at telephoto, and a little bit less capable AF performance in low light.

Both cameras are great. Just pick the one whose exclusive advantages better suit your personal needs.
 
You listed good more criteria for decission. All these will make a
bigger difference than the difference in image quality.
Thanks, although someone here thinks that my observations carry no weight unless I can first prove I can take good pictures. :-P
I always thought thr 717 had a high powered lens ..5x isnt all that
special.
Well it was for a while! But with the G3 having a 4x zoom now, the difference is no longer as dramatic.
The EVF and especially the darn memory stick (joke) would be the
knockouts for me.
I've read (but haven't tested) that the 717 can use night vision in its EVF to let you compose photos in total darkness. If this really works, it could come in handy, especially when the G3's white AF assit lamp may be too disruptive.
 
I think a bright white AF assist lamp might be more disruptive in cases like that.
The review sentence that caught my eye was "The F717 was easily
capable of focusing in complete darkness thanks to its 'Hologram
AF' (laser pattern) focusing mechanism. The laser paints a sharp
pattern on to the subject, this pattern is sharp and bright enough
for the contrast detection auto focus system to adjust the focus
accurately."
 
i think downloading and viewing sample shots is one thing but i can
tell you from first-hand experience that the photos YOU take with
your G2 or F717 will look different from each other. not saying
one is necessarily better than the other but i know i sure have my
preference.
The point of downloading, viewing, and perhaps printing sample photos is to compare image quality of two identical photos taken by two cameras under the same conditions. Can't do this yourself unless you already have access to both cameras.
 
You listed good more criteria for decission. All these will make a
bigger difference than the difference in image quality.
Thanks, although someone here thinks that my observations carry no
weight unless I can first prove I can take good pictures. :-P
this someone here doesnt make much sense ..
I always thought thr 717 had a high powered lens ..5x isnt all that
special.
Well it was for a while! But with the G3 having a 4x zoom now, the
difference is no longer as dramatic.
The EVF and especially the darn memory stick (joke) would be the
knockouts for me.
I've read (but haven't tested) that the 717 can use night vision in
its EVF to let you compose photos in total darkness. If this really
works, it could come in handy, especially when the G3's white AF
assit lamp may be too disruptive.
This would be nice. but seems to be for rare occasions ... you may be able to compose the picutre in totale darkness but if there is total darkness goinf to be in the picture then composing isnt that important ;)

I think the sonys have these low light options .. which gives IR like photos ... no use for me .. maybe for others .... its an interesting think but i would still prefer the optical viewfinder ..
 
Here's what I think overall:

Both cameras are good, so then look at the clear differentiating factors and put a priority to them:

F717 pros:
  • Built in bigger zoom lens - if you don't plan to pay $more$ for G3 extra lenses stick with Sony
  • 5 mega pixels - if you truly think you will use the extra 1 mega pixel go for this
G3 pros:
  • Cheaper memory, can use high capacity compact flash, can use IBM microdrive - if you need tons of photos and/or don't have much cash for ram go for G3
  • Slightly more manual controls - if you are the ultimate photographer from heaven and you need and are picky about having the most control of your camera, go G3
  • About $200 USA cheaper than F717 - if you are more than fine with the 4 mega pixel and quality of G3, and don't need to spend more
  • Size is important to you - the G3 is somewhat slightly smaller
-------------------------------

So pick, prioritize, decide. Both cameras from everything I have read are good, so you can't really go wrong either way.
  • Raist
 
ARGGGHHHH !!!
--To Mike, Walter and all those posting "this verses that" messages let me say thank you. I have used your input, opinions, comparisons, arguments and evaluations to make my buying decision. I own a Canon G3 and have no regrets. Yes, Canon can make improvements and surely will with future models, or you can spend more now and move up to digital SLR. I now have some tools, Canon G3 for pictures, Canon S9000 for printing, Photoshop Elements for editing, Qimage for printing and now I stand at the beginning of an exciting adventure, photography with digital equipment. I can say for myself that more tools and accessories will come down the road, however, for now what I need is experience with what I have and dpreviews forums are one place to learn much. To Mike, Walter, and any others at Canon Talk forum who I "can not" find at the "printers and printing", "retouching", etc., you will find less comparisons and more how to do this and that at these forums. These forums are about using the equipment you have, well "printers and printing" does have some "this verses that", but all in all I think I will spend more time at these forums because I have moved just a little further into the photography with digital equipment adventure. Thanks again for all the "lively" discussions…HDProman
Newbie, having fun.
 
When dealing with two very good cameras with both their strengths and weaknesses, do a "hands on" test. Which one "feels" best to you? Which one would you like best in your hands? For example, I found the Sony 717 in hand much smaller than I thought from its pictures.
 
mike, i understand the point of comparing sample shots under controlled conditions. what i'm saying though is that, in actual practice, each camera produces pictures with it's own "look". if you gave me a bunch of shots taken with the G2, F717, and CP5000, i could probably pretty acurately sort them all into three piles by camera, especially flash shots. exposure and color rendition are the biggest difference i notice between them and each has it's own idea of ideal white balance.

as for the hologram AF assist being less obtrusive than the white focus assist lamp, well, i highly recommend you living with both cameras for a day and seeing for yourself. the holgogram pattern is large, very bright, wraps around the subjects, projects very far and shows up in videos and other people's pictures.

best of luck.
i think downloading and viewing sample shots is one thing but i can
tell you from first-hand experience that the photos YOU take with
your G2 or F717 will look different from each other. not saying
one is necessarily better than the other but i know i sure have my
preference.
The point of downloading, viewing, and perhaps printing sample
photos is to compare image quality of two identical photos taken by
two cameras under the same conditions. Can't do this yourself
unless you already have access to both cameras.
--
-norm
http://www.pbase.com/norm
 
ARGGGHHHH !!! I have spent HOURS comparing the G3 to the 717
trying to decide which to buy. I am like a crack cocaine junkie,
and dpreview.com is my dealer!!! I keep going back to see if I can
get the ultimate satisfaction. FINALLY, I just said the hell with
it. What do I ACTUALLY DO WITH these cameras???

1. I view pictures, full screen on my monitor. SO I called up both
the Sony 717 and the Canon G2 dpreview test picture (the one with
the bottles that Phil always uses to test). I COULD NOT SEE ANY
DIFFERENCE BETWEEN THE TWO... NONE. NOT ACTUALLY VIEWING THE
PICTURES LIKE A REAL PERSON WOULD ON A TYPICAL 17" MONITOR.

2. I print pictures at 4X6 on my photo printer. So, I printed each
shot on glossy premium photo paper. THERE WAS NO DIFFERENCE. BOTH
WERE GREAT. I showed the pictures to 10 people. All said there
was no difference and both were great.

3. I OCCASSIONALLY print at 8X10. So, I printed both shots at 8X10
on premium photo paper.... GUESS WHAT..... NO DIFFERENCE. BOTH
WERE GREAT.

So, why the hell do we go back a forth with these highly zoomed
mini-crops, trying to see some "jaggie", or some "soft" edge. YOU
NEVER FREAKIN SEE ANY OF THIS WHEN YOU ACTUALLY USE THE OUTPUT OF
THE CAMERA FOR ANY REAL PURPOSE (except you professionals who make
60x60 prints... please feel free to continue to debate).

For 95% of the folks on this forum, THERE IS NO DIFFERENCE IN THE
IMAGE QUALITY BETWEEN THE G3 and THE 717. NONE. ONLY IF YOU ZOOM
THINGS UP TO REDICULOUS LEVELS DO YOU SEE A DIFFERENCE. AND NOBODY
BUT US CRACK ADDICTS DOES THAT !!!! PHIL TOLD US BOTH CAMERAS ARE
AWESOME !! HOW SICK ARE WE ???????

I am going to try to kick the habit...... I am going to try to just
buy one or the other (and I guess this makes me lean toward the G3
because it is $200 cheaper, and has more controls).

But.... if any of you crack dealers out there has that FINAL PIECE
OF UNDISPUTABLE INFOMRATION that will give me the ultimate high of
knowing which of these two cameras is best.... PLEASE, I'll take a
dime bag!
--
Jim Tan
 
Mike,
I know how you feel, I've just kicked the habit and bought the Canon G3.

I will give some reviews when it comes in next week, the reviews will be from someone who doesn't really care who's is bigger.
Sign,
Hung low
ARGGGHHHH !!! I have spent HOURS comparing the G3 to the 717
trying to decide which to buy. I am like a crack cocaine junkie,
and dpreview.com is my dealer!!! I keep going back to see if I can
get the ultimate satisfaction. FINALLY, I just said the hell with
it. What do I ACTUALLY DO WITH these cameras???

1. I view pictures, full screen on my monitor. SO I called up both
the Sony 717 and the Canon G2 dpreview test picture (the one with
the bottles that Phil always uses to test). I COULD NOT SEE ANY
DIFFERENCE BETWEEN THE TWO... NONE. NOT ACTUALLY VIEWING THE
PICTURES LIKE A REAL PERSON WOULD ON A TYPICAL 17" MONITOR.

2. I print pictures at 4X6 on my photo printer. So, I printed each
shot on glossy premium photo paper. THERE WAS NO DIFFERENCE. BOTH
WERE GREAT. I showed the pictures to 10 people. All said there
was no difference and both were great.

3. I OCCASSIONALLY print at 8X10. So, I printed both shots at 8X10
on premium photo paper.... GUESS WHAT..... NO DIFFERENCE. BOTH
WERE GREAT.

So, why the hell do we go back a forth with these highly zoomed
mini-crops, trying to see some "jaggie", or some "soft" edge. YOU
NEVER FREAKIN SEE ANY OF THIS WHEN YOU ACTUALLY USE THE OUTPUT OF
THE CAMERA FOR ANY REAL PURPOSE (except you professionals who make
60x60 prints... please feel free to continue to debate).

For 95% of the folks on this forum, THERE IS NO DIFFERENCE IN THE
IMAGE QUALITY BETWEEN THE G3 and THE 717. NONE. ONLY IF YOU ZOOM
THINGS UP TO REDICULOUS LEVELS DO YOU SEE A DIFFERENCE. AND NOBODY
BUT US CRACK ADDICTS DOES THAT !!!! PHIL TOLD US BOTH CAMERAS ARE
AWESOME !! HOW SICK ARE WE ???????

I am going to try to kick the habit...... I am going to try to just
buy one or the other (and I guess this makes me lean toward the G3
because it is $200 cheaper, and has more controls).

But.... if any of you crack dealers out there has that FINAL PIECE
OF UNDISPUTABLE INFOMRATION that will give me the ultimate high of
knowing which of these two cameras is best.... PLEASE, I'll take a
dime bag!
 
I've read (but haven't tested) that the 717 can use night vision in
its EVF to let you compose photos in total darkness. If this really
works, it could come in handy, especially when the G3's white AF
assit lamp may be too disruptive.
This would be nice. but seems to be for rare occasions ... you may
be able to compose the picutre in totale darkness but if there is
total darkness goinf to be in the picture then composing isnt that
important ;)
Well, sometimes lighting is too dim to compose the picture and a white AF assist lamp can spoil the spontaneity more than a subtle red laser hologram. But the flash can still illuminate the finla shot.

Also, sometimes you may have teh camera on a tripod preparing for a very long exposure of a night scene and again, night vision might come in handy.

But no, I wouldn't trade an optical viewfinder for an EVF. :-) Just remember that if Canon ever includes a 5x or larger zoom, we'll probably get an EVF too...
I think the sonys have these low light options .. which gives IR
like photos ... no use for me .. maybe for others .... its an
interesting think but i would still prefer the optical viewfinder ..
No, I meant the IR for composing the image, not to capture it...

It could come in handy at times, but I'd rather have a regular viewfiner.
 
mike, i understand the point of comparing sample shots under
controlled conditions. what i'm saying though is that, in actual
practice, each camera produces pictures with it's own "look". if
you gave me a bunch of shots taken with the G2, F717, and CP5000, i
could probably pretty acurately sort them all into three piles by
camera, especially flash shots. exposure and color rendition are
the biggest difference i notice between them and each has it's own
idea of ideal white balance.
Of course, and all the more reason to compare side by side photos, don't you think?
as for the hologram AF assist being less obtrusive than the white
focus assist lamp, well, i highly recommend you living with both
cameras for a day and seeing for yourself. the holgogram pattern is
large, very bright, wraps around the subjects, projects very far
and shows up in videos and other people's pictures.
I still think it's less attention grabbing in the dark than a bright white light.

But don't get me wrong, I prefer the G3. I just like to be objective about other cameras' features.
 
F717 pros:
  • Built in bigger zoom lens - if you don't plan to pay $more$ for
G3 extra lenses stick with Sony
Not necessarily. Not everyone would agree that getting 5x vs. 4x zoom is worth an extra $200 and a larger, bulkier camera that cannot be operated with one hand.
You left out:

Better ergonomics. Doesn't require two hands to use.

Swivel LCD. Can be used for self portraits, even hand-held.
Remote control. Very handy gadget.

Built-in ND filter. Great for closeup flasf and for using slow shutter speeds in bright daylight.
So pick, prioritize, decide. Both cameras from everything I have
read are good, so you can't really go wrong either way.
I agree. They're both pretty closely matched.
 
You're welcome, HDProman.

I'm already pretty familiar with the basics of photography, digital and otherwise, and I visit this website more to discuss equipment issues than for techniques. Since my technique questions often revolve around the specific features and limitations of a particular camera, I've found that they are usually best answered in the specific forms dedicated to the camera in question. But I agree that there are lots of other useful forums here for every kind of topic.
 
When dealing with two very good cameras with both their strengths
and weaknesses, do a "hands on" test. Which one "feels" best to
you? Which one would you like best in your hands? For example, I
found the Sony 717 in hand much smaller than I thought from its
pictures.
I agree that this is important, but not to the exclusion of a careful review of features, something best done away from the high pressure and distractions of a camera store.

If I'd allowed myself to be overly influenced by how well a camera feels in my hand, I would have jumped on a Nikon 5000 or 5700 - and I almost did. The shock I received when I investigated further is the reason why I hold such strong opinions regarding those two cameras.
 
Mike:

IMHO, the brand of camera is meaningless...it's the study of
photography that makes us photographers. The September/October 2002
issue of the "Charleston" magazine featured a 6-page spread of
local images shot by Marni Rothschild with a $15 dollar plastic
camera! It was the photographer's skill (not the camera's features)
that made the difference.
You have aroused my curiosity.

--
Dilman
Canon Powershot S30-owner
http://www.pbase.com/dilman
 
Mike wrote:
(snip)
For 95% of the folks on this forum, THERE IS NO DIFFERENCE IN THE
IMAGE QUALITY BETWEEN THE G3 and THE 717. NONE. ONLY IF YOU ZOOM
THINGS UP TO REDICULOUS LEVELS DO YOU SEE A DIFFERENCE. AND NOBODY
BUT US CRACK ADDICTS DOES THAT !!!! PHIL TOLD US BOTH CAMERAS ARE
AWESOME !! HOW SICK ARE WE ???????
Your remarks are right on target. The leading cameras these days are ALL quality products. If they weren't the market has become sophisiticated enough and will reject them immediately. It's becoming more of a styling, price, and preferences based on other than pure image production.

Jim
 

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