DPReview/Andy Westlake - Why isn't the shutter dance in the bugs/glitches list?

Hello DPReview/Andy Westlake,

I was wondering if there was a reason why the shutter dance that occurs in bright light is not listed in your bugs/glitches list. Do you not consider this a bug, or have you not come across this in your usage of the X100?

It seems DPReview has some leverage with Fuji so I think many would like to see you add this to the list to at least force Fuji to see it.

Thanks.

This shutter dance is actually a diaphragm dance. At half shutter press, the diaphragm sometimes first closes to what looks like f16 and than settles on selected lens opening. The dance seems to appear more often in spot meter mode than the other two modes. When not in spot meter mode, it does sometimes dance when the left or right side has a bright light source in the frame.

I haven't found it a problem yet, but I suspect that other have.

Nand.

--

Well the shutter lag is a problem for some. It's still not completely clear if this is a design issue or an actual firmware bug. If its a firmware issue we can push to have it fixed. If its a design issue, we at least know we should be resigned to accept it as a permanent quirk.

It especially a problem for people shooting in manual exposure mode. I don't understand why the camera would need to adjust for the light source when you're telling it exactly what you want it to do.

nand said:

This shutter dance is actually a diaphragm dance. At half shutter press, the diaphragm sometimes first closes to what looks like f16 and than settles on selected lens opening. The dance seems to appear more often in spot meter mode than the other two modes. When not in spot meter mode, it does sometimes dance when the left or right side has a bright light source in the frame.

I haven't found it a problem yet, but I suspect that other have.

Nand.

--

Click to expand...

I thought Andy did list it. He mentions the need to hold the shutter at a selected aperture (a modification made to the Leica X1 in its latest firmware) so that MF becomes more usable. It also is the source of lag at times, especially in bright light.
--
John
Visit my web gallery at:
http://www.barjohn.com/My Photographs/index.html
Comments and critiques welcome.

I don't see that in the bugs/glitches list. Did he mention this somewhere else in the review? If he did, I missed it but that would imply this is a design choice and not a bug/glitch.

barjohn said:

I thought Andy did list it. He mentions the need to hold the shutter at a selected aperture (a modification made to the Leica X1 in its latest firmware) so that MF becomes more usable. It also is the source of lag at times, especially in bright light.
--
John
Visit my web gallery at:
http://www.barjohn.com/My Photographs/index.html
Comments and critiques welcome.

Click to expand...

Photohobbyfun said:

I don't see that in the bugs/glitches list. Did he mention this somewhere else in the review? If he did, I missed it but that would imply this is a design choice and not a bug/glitch.

Click to expand...

Bottom of page 6, under the heading "Manual focus aperure bug" - http://forums.dpreview.com/reviews/fujifilmx100/page6.asp

It is also in the bugs list, as something affecting manual focusing in bright light. But it is only about the intial stopping down of the aperture blades, and the fact that that means in bright light you are always trying to focus stopped down. The subsequent aperture dance as the blades get back to their set position, usually detouring through f16 and f2, which is the cause of aperture lag, is not mentioned.

Still, some possible fixes of the problem raised by the review would also have incidentally fixed aperture lag.

--
Apteryx

OK, there's no such thing as 'shutter dance', but the X100 does do interesting things with its aperture. It's not listed as a 'glitch', though, because what the camera does seems perfectly easy to rationalize, and eminently sensible.

The X100's aperture behaviour follows three phases, most easily observed if you set the camera to MF and use AEL to focus, while watching it closely:

1) In live view the aperture constantly and freely adjusts to regulate the light hitting the sensor. Many cameras do this to some degree in live view, and hardly anyone notices because it doesn't really matter.

2) When you initiate AF, the camera sets maximum aperture at the start of the focus cycle. However if you've set the camera to shoot at a smaller aperture, it will often stop down a bit while it fine-tunes focus position, although never to an aperture smaller than is set. This is actually quite clever - it reduces the chances of focus shift errors due to spherical aberration, which probably improves close-range focus accuracy substantially.

(If you're working in MF, the camera will switch back to the previously-described behaviour after AF is completed.)

3) When you half-press the shutter, the camera sets the aperture to the taking position and holds it there.

4) When you then press fully, the shutter fires, and because the aperture has been set this occurs with the mimimum possible lag.

So the 'aperture dance' only really affects AF times, but in the process very likely improves accuracy, especially with close subjects. In MF, it may possibly add a small lag if you don't half-press before shooting, but it seems churlish to complain about this because pretty well every digital camera in the world is slower to shoot if you don't half-press first. If you do learn to half-press before shooting, the X100 is very responsiive indeed.

The take-home message here is quite simple. The X100 is not a mechanical rangefinder and doesn't behave like one - it's still a digital compact. If you want a real RF, you still have to buy an M9.

--
Andy Westlake
dpreview.com

Andy Westlake said:

The take-home message here is quite simple. The X100 is not a mechanical rangefinder and doesn't behave like one - it's still a digital compact. If you want a real RF, you still have to buy an M9.

--

Click to expand...

Andy,

I think this is the key. I can't remember not doing half-pressing shutter to autofocus and then optionally recompose and shoot when I switched over from the manual focus system to the auto focus system in the 90's.

Of course focusing on the hyper-focal distance per given aperture, we can maximally extend the depth of field, but without DOF scale on the lens on modern lenses, this makes it somewhat difficult

We can get away with not half-pressing on most P&S cameras since it has a small sensor and will have greater DOF per aperture using shorter focal length lenses.

Thanks.

Andy,

Where I think the problem lies that some former RF users are complaining is under the following conditions. The camera is set to a shutter speed and an aperture by the user. The focus is set to MF and the AFL is set to lock focus. The button is pressed to focus on a target at a selected distance and the focus is locked. Having a predetermined focus distance and depth of field along with shutter speed selected by the photographer, no 1/2 press should be needed. The camera should just fire with no aperture changes as soon as the button is pressed. Instead, in bright light, the aperture goes through a series of changes and the frame lines have to shift to the preset focus distance. Instead, the frame lines should always be left at the last selected focus distance and only change or move when a new focus distance is selected and the aperture should remain set to the photographer's preset value. The only exception to the latter should occur if the photographer manually rotates the focus ring. If this happens, the lens aperture should shift to the wide open position and, if focus assist was turned on in the menu, the magnified image should appear to assist with manual focusing by eye. The command lever should allow the magnification to be adjusted up or down based on the photographer's eye sight and need and the EVF should have switched on.

The result would be a far more responsive and usable camera; assuming they also fix the horrible servo implementation for focus.
--
John
Visit my web gallery at:
http://www.barjohn.com/My Photographs/index.html
Comments and critiques welcome.

barjohn said:

Andy,

Where I think the problem lies that some former RF users are complaining is under the following conditions. The camera is set to a shutter speed and an aperture by the user. The focus is set to MF and the AFL is set to lock focus. The button is pressed to focus on a target at a selected distance and the focus is locked. Having a predetermined focus distance and depth of field along with shutter speed selected by the photographer, no 1/2 press should be needed. The camera should just fire with no aperture changes as soon as the button is pressed. Instead, in bright light, the aperture goes through a series of changes and the frame lines have to shift to the preset focus distance. Instead, the frame lines should always be left at the last selected focus distance and only change or move when a new focus distance is selected and the aperture should remain set to the photographer's preset value. The only exception to the latter should occur if the photographer manually rotates the focus ring. If this happens, the lens aperture should shift to the wide open position and, if focus assist was turned on in the menu, the magnified image should appear to assist with manual focusing by eye. The command lever should allow the magnification to be adjusted up or down based on the photographer's eye sight and need and the EVF should have switched on.

The result would be a far more responsive and usable camera; assuming they also fix the horrible servo implementation for focus.
--
John
Visit my web gallery at:
http://www.barjohn.com/My Photographs/index.html
Comments and critiques welcome.

Click to expand...

John,

I think you are still missing Andy's point. The X100 is NOT a manual camera or a rangefinder camera. As such, its implementation leave much to be desired under manual focusing. For instance, due to aperture shifting, it's hard for me to focus anything manually.

If you press AF-L to focus in the manual mode, while pressing down the button you can click the shutter, and you will notice no lag at all I believe the X100 treats this as equivalent to the half press shutter.

I wonder if Fuji disables AF function under manual if there won't be any shutter lag, but given its dismal manual focusing capability, I'm not sure that's what I want.

polymath said:

If you press AF-L to focus in the manual mode, while pressing down the button you can click the shutter, and you will notice no lag at all I believe the X100 treats this as equivalent to the half press shutter.

Click to expand...

Holding down the AFL AEL button in manual focus mode does not eliminate the shutter lag in bright light. You still have to half press.
--
Jeff

My cat, who likes to sprawl on my keyboard, gets credit for anything I write that makes sense.

Andy Westlake said:

The take-home message here is quite simple. The X100 is not a mechanical rangefinder and doesn't behave like one - it's still a digital compact. If you want a real RF, you still have to buy an M9.

Click to expand...

Do other large-sensor cameras that use contrast detection AF, such as the NEX and the MFT cameras, behave like the X100?

--
Jeff

My cat, who likes to sprawl on my keyboard, gets the credit for anything I write that makes sense.

Andy, this is your #3:

"3) When you half-press the shutter, the camera sets the aperture to the taking position and holds it there."

This is my #3 in some bright light conditions:

At half press, the diaphragm sometimes goes wide open than closes to what looks like f11 and than settles on the selected lens opening and holds it there.

This happens under the same settings you described (MF with AFL button focussing and lock). Even when the selected lens opening is f2, the lens may first close down to something like f11 at half press.

It seems to happen more often in spot metering but does it in the other two exposure modes as well.

Nand.

--

Jeff Charles said:

polymath said:

If you press AF-L to focus in the manual mode, while pressing down the button you can click the shutter, and you will notice no lag at all I believe the X100 treats this as equivalent to the half press shutter.

Click to expand...

Holding down the AFL AEL button in manual focus mode does not eliminate the shutter lag in bright light. You still have to half press.
--
Jeff

My cat, who likes to sprawl on my keyboard, gets credit for anything I write that makes sense.

Click to expand...

What conditions are you talking about? I just tried it, and it didn't happen for me. Are you operating the camera in the entire manual mode?

Having owned manual range finders (RD-1s and M8) I am fully aware that it is not a manual RF. On the other hand, manual mode should work "manually." The GXR has the same issues and the M8 used to have the issue but it was fixed in the latest firmware. I can't recall how the NEX operated though I owned one and my vague recollection is that the G1 and GF-1 did not.
--
John
Visit my web gallery at:
http://www.barjohn.com/My Photographs/index.html
Comments and critiques welcome.

This behavior is not consistent, which is a further frustration. Sometimes you will see no lag in bright light and other times you do. More often than not, you do not see it indoors but you will occasionally. Because the behavior is erratic, I suspect that it is a bug or it may just mean I haven't figured out the algorithm the camera uses.
--
John
Visit my web gallery at:
http://www.barjohn.com/My Photographs/index.html
Comments and critiques welcome.

barjohn said:

Having owned manual range finders (RD-1s and M8) I am fully aware that it is not a manual RF. On the other hand, manual mode should work "manually." The GXR has the same issues and the M8 used to have the issue but it was fixed in the latest firmware. I can't recall how the NEX operated though I owned one and my vague recollection is that the G1 and GF-1 did not.
--
John
Visit my web gallery at:
http://www.barjohn.com/My Photographs/index.html
Comments and critiques welcome.

Click to expand...

I can confirm G1 or GF1 doesn't. I have often manual focus on GF1 and G1, but I wouldn't even try it in the X100 or GXR. Can it be done, yes, but it's not worth the hassle, and the result is often not as good as AF anyway given current implementation in my book.

barjohn said:

Andy,

Where I think the problem lies that some former RF users are complaining is under the following conditions. The camera is set to a shutter speed and an aperture by the user. The focus is set to MF and the AFL is set to lock focus. The button is pressed to focus on a target at a selected distance and the focus is locked. Having a predetermined focus distance and depth of field along with shutter speed selected by the photographer, no 1/2 press should be needed. The camera should just fire with no aperture changes as soon as the button is pressed. Instead, in bright light, the aperture goes through a series of changes and the frame lines have to shift to the preset focus distance. Instead, the frame lines should always be left at the last selected focus distance and only change or move when a new focus distance is selected and the aperture should remain set to the photographer's preset value. The only exception to the latter should occur if the photographer manually rotates the focus ring. If this happens, the lens aperture should shift to the wide open position and, if focus assist was turned on in the menu, the magnified image should appear to assist with manual focusing by eye. The command lever should allow the magnification to be adjusted up or down based on the photographer's eye sight and need and the EVF should have switched on.

The result would be a far more responsive and usable camera; assuming they also fix the horrible servo implementation for focus.

Click to expand...

I agree with just about everything in your post. Moving the frame lines and keeping them in position when focus is preset is obvious. Whether or not the full-press lag in bright light can be eliminated is an engineering problem. It is a reasonable assumption that it works the way it does now for a reason. I hope to see a firmware fix, but I am not counting on it.
--
Jeff

My cat, who likes to sprawl on my keyboard, gets the credit for anything I write that makes sense.

polymath said:

Jeff Charles said:

polymath said:

If you press AF-L to focus in the manual mode, while pressing down the button you can click the shutter, and you will notice no lag at all I believe the X100 treats this as equivalent to the half press shutter.

Click to expand...

Holding down the AFL AEL button in manual focus mode does not eliminate the shutter lag in bright light. You still have to half press.
--
Jeff

My cat, who likes to sprawl on my keyboard, gets credit for anything I write that makes sense.

Click to expand...

What conditions are you talking about? I just tried it, and it didn't happen for me. Are you operating the camera in the entire manual mode?

Click to expand...

Bright scene. Manual focus, with manual ISO, aperture, and shutter speed. The camera does its "tatata" routine on half press. In dimmer conditions, it does not.
--
Jeff

My cat, who likes to sprawl on my keyboard, gets credit for anything I write that makes sense.

Jeff Charles said:

Bright scene. Manual focus, with manual ISO, aperture, and shutter speed. The camera does its "tatata" routine on half press. In dimmer conditions, it does not.
--
Jeff

Click to expand...

I just tried it again. It's sunny hot Summer, and you can't get any brighter than today. Everything manual, and there is no shutter delay under various shutter and aperture combination.

As long as I press the AF/AE-L down when I press the shutter, there is no delay. If I only press once to focus release it, then there is discernible shutter delay when the shutter is pressed.