Aperture Iris problem

Viramati

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Please view this video and then if possible follow the advice below. thanks

http://www.flickr.com/photos/viramati/5893541507/in/photostreameam

Shows the problem with the X100 in bright light when the Aperture iris open up fully then stops right down before going to the set aperture. Consequently this really slows things down and creates severe shutter lag. I would appreciate it if as many people as possible contacted fuji about this (I have already) as I now find that this is the one thing that really ruins the performance of the camera
Thanks
--
David

http://www.dpsampson.zenfolio.com
http://www.flickr.com/photos/viramati/
 
There is doubtless a technical reason why this is so. Maybe they can change it. Probably not.

If this induced shutter lag ruins the camera for you then you'd best learn to work around it by half-pressing the shutter in anticipation of the moment or ditching the camera - or...

Sell it quick while you can still get your money back.

It has never been the slightest issue for me, but then I don't use it as an action camera where an extra 1/5s shutter lag in bright light is a big deal.

I can see that for a minority of people who are otherwise happy with the X100, as I believe you are, that this is a genuine problem.

Unfortunately it's become the latest rallying cry of the haters.

--
Fuji X100 Fanboy #1
X100 blog -> http://peri.org.uk/wp/?tag=blog
 
You get me totally wrong and I find your tone somewhat aggressive. I think this is a great camera and use it all the time but this is a strange problem that doesn't appear at lower light levels and even happens when you are zone focussing in manual mode and manual exposure. Sometimes it can be important to have an almost instant shutter release especially for street work.My hope is that it can be sorted in a firmware update and just wanted to get as many people who have this as an issue to contact fuji. So please could you be a little more courteous in your tone. Thank you
--
David

http://www.dpsampson.zenfolio.com
http://www.flickr.com/photos/viramati/
 
I don't think this is something that could be fixed in firmware.

I also don't think starting a campaign to petition Fuji to change something that very likely cannot be changed without an expensive recall is the way to reward them for taking the kind of risks they needed to take to make this camera.

I also think that starting a campaign to "fix" what is a non-issue for most users and a very minor one for most of the rest is not a great idea. I think you need to get some perspective.

But of course I do accept that for you and a few others it might be a significant problem. In that case there is a slight workaround (half-press in anticipation), or the nuclear option (get rid of the camera).

You find my tone objectionable? I find your petition objectionable.

I think you are adding fuel to a fire that doesn't need it. I don't know why there are so many people determined to run down this wonderful camera, and I don't think you are one of them usually. However I think you are giving them a thread to dump their poison into and very likely no good can possibly come of it.

Just click on the ignore button if you cannot cope.
--
Fuji X100 Fanboy #1
X100 blog -> http://peri.org.uk/wp/?tag=blog
 
It is in fact a very easy workaround for this.
"gava" told you how and explained why.

By 100+ other cameras. I'm shure you will find a cry for FW-updates or different design to suit you, on every single one.
--
Canon since 1959, a Finepix X100.......and a F10 just in case ;-)
http://www.flickr.com/photos/fujicanon_photo/
 
I really don't understand why people on forums get so aggressive and at the same time defensive. I have had a lot of communication with fuji Uk over this and they have been very helpful and appreciative of some of the input I gave them at the beginning, as I was one of the lucky people to get an early model and made them aware of some the issues. Also I was a pro photographer for many years in Italy and now sell and exhibit some my work so I do know my way around cameras having started back in the mid 70's with the likes of Olympus OM1, Nikon FM's, mamiya 330, Bronica 645 etc so I do have some small experience of the working of a camera. Yes you can work around it in the way pointed out by gava but if a fix can be found all the better and as I have said fuji a really interested in our input so rather than complain here get on to them.

Personally I would and do appreciate people input on all aspects of camera and photography. Anyway I'm out of here if people don't know how to civil.
--
David

http://www.dpsampson.zenfolio.com
http://www.flickr.com/photos/viramati/
 
Listen "Viramati":

You have got the explanation from "gava" why Fuji have made the camera to act like it does.
It is exact what Fuji themselves say about it.

I'm sorry if you don't like the "tone" in the forum. A straight pass always best, or?

I recall an english football player who always yelled at the team mate over the pass.........

NO, I don't look at your work. Why should I? You are just yelling at me......
--
Canon since 1959, a Finepix X100.......and a F10 just in case ;-)
http://www.flickr.com/photos/fujicanon_photo/
 
I really don't understand why people on forums get so aggressive and at the same time defensive.
I do not want to get mixed up in this. I'll just say that I also do not know why, and it is unfortunate.

My guess is that the aperture action in bright light was a conscious design decision. Other cameras do not do it, and I doubt that the Fuji engineers would have designed it the way they did without good reason. I will be surprised if a firmware fix is possible. OTOH, it could have been an easy solution to meet a deadline, and so may be reversible. We will see.

In any case, I have no objection to petitioning Fuji. My guess is that Fuji managers are adults who are interested in feedback from their customers.
Yes you can work around it in the way pointed out by gava but if a fix can be found all the better and as I have said fuji a really interested in our input so rather than complain here get on to them.
My initial reaction to the "aperture dance" was that it is a serious problem. After thinking about it, and about how I shoot, I am less concerned. It really only comes into play in situations that require a quick grab shot, when there isn't time to set up and half press. For shots that will require an immediate shot (after my 1/3 second reaction time, of course), I always half press in anticipation. An example is a candid portrait, when I am waiting for the instant when the subject's eyes turn toward me.

What are the situations that you think would benefit from a change to this behavior? Also, have you figured out exactly how long the lag is? I agree that eliminating the lag would be an improvement, but I'm not convinced that it is critical.
--
Jeff

My cat, who likes to sprawl on my keyboard, gets the credit for anything I write that makes sense.
 
I think the hostility (Which was actually kind of mild compared to some I've seen here!) might be partially attributed to the fact that there is already a fairly long thread dealing with exactly this issue. This forum tends to polarise around "it's a broken design and Fuji need to fix it NOW" or "it's the best camera ever and I will hear no ill spoken of it", and I find both positions pretty boring. I only stay here because every once in a while you come across someone who is actually making photographs with the X100, and I'm keen to learn what it can do in hands more capable than mine.
--
Please check out my photos at:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/drmark/
 
Listen "Viramati":

You have got the explanation from "gava" why Fuji have made the camera to act like it does.
It is exact what Fuji themselves say about it.

I'm sorry if you don't like the "tone" in the forum. A straight pass always best, or?

I recall an english football player who always yelled at the team mate over the pass.........

NO, I don't look at your work. Why should I? You are just yelling at me......
--
Canon since 1959, a Finepix X100.......and a F10 just in case ;-)
http://www.flickr.com/photos/fujicanon_photo/
I never yelled at you I'm afraid you yelled at me and if you bothered to look at my work you might see how much I love and appreciate this camera. but hey never mind

Anyway Gava kindly gave a workaround not an explanation as to why the camera behaves in this way
--
David

http://www.dpsampson.zenfolio.com
http://www.flickr.com/photos/viramati/
 
Hi Jeff and thanks for the sane reply. where this would benefit me is when shooting from the hip in full manual mode and I would like an instant reaction when I press the shutter release. Ok it isn't the end of the world but I have spoken to fuji Uk about this and they say that they are aware of the problem. I am hoping that firmware can sort this out but it might not be possible and I am a reasonable person and don't expect the impossible. Fuji have already done a great job with the latest firmware update but the told me themselves that the more input they get the better so I was just trying to encourage anyone who had a problem with this to contact them (After all thats what they told me to do). So I was just a little surprised by the reaction
--
David

http://www.dpsampson.zenfolio.com
http://www.flickr.com/photos/viramati/
 
What are the situations that you think would benefit from a change to this behavior? Also, have you figured out exactly how long the lag is? I agree that eliminating the lag would be an improvement, but I'm not convinced that it is critical.
I think the full version of the "serenity prayer" you quoted earlier is appropriate here:
"Grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change,
Courage to change the things I can,
And wisdom to know the difference."

People are taking strong positions based on their guesses as to whether aperture lag can be fixed.

Virimati is right to ask Fuji if they can fix it. Gava is right that it can be dealt with in most situations by half pressing the shutter in advance (which I nearly always do anyay when using AF, to get confirmation of focusing)

Clearly if it can be fixed it should be. As near as I can measure it (by the basic means of starting a stop watch as I press the shutter and taking the time of the one where I felt I precisely hit the mark of the aperture blades reaching the set position) I think it takes .5 of a second for the full dance. Note that is not an average of several attempts - most attempts showed a longer time than that, mostly .7 to .9 seconds, because of my reaction time after seeing the aperture in place. The .5 is the time I measured when I anticipated the blades being in place and felt that I had got it spot on). A part of that (probably between .1 and .2 seconds) would be attributable to the blades moving ito their set position at the end of the dance. Whether that can be fixed (by allowing the aperture to be set when the user sets it) is a different question to whether the dance can be fixed.

That .5 seconds affects grab shots. Most of the time of course you have already missed those moments by the time you can press the shutter. But sometimes you haven't, and those are the shots you miss due to aperture lag. Also in situations where you don't want subjects to react to the camera. Again, sometimes they would anyway even with no aperture lag, but other times that .5 seconds makes the difference. With no mirror to raise, it is only aperture lag which prevents the X100 outperforming DSLRs in this area (when using MF).

One odditity when I look at the issue now is that my camera no longer seems to be behaving as it did when GordonL first raised it here two months ago. In intermediate lighting conditions, it now only rarely does a half dance (going to one of the two extreme positions but not the other before going to the set aperture). Sometimes now in light as low as EV 11 it does the full dance. More often, it just goes from its stopped down position to it's set aperture without any fuss, proving that it can.

The change may be an unannounced part of the FW. Or more likely there are many more factors determining what it does in different conditions than I had supposed. Certainly the average EV of the scene is not the only factor determining what it does. The angle to the sun (or other bright light source) seems just as important.

If it can't be fixed - then the X100 is still my favourite camera. Obviously no one camera is best in all circumstances for all purposes. But I'm hoping that it can be fixed so that it will be better yet.

--
Apteryx
 
I think the hostility (Which was actually kind of mild compared to some I've seen here!) might be partially attributed to the fact that there is already a fairly long thread dealing with exactly this issue. This forum tends to polarise around "it's a broken design and Fuji need to fix it NOW" or "it's the best camera ever and I will hear no ill spoken of it", and I find both positions pretty boring. I only stay here because every once in a while you come across someone who is actually making photographs with the X100, and I'm keen to learn what it can do in hands more capable than mine.
--
Please check out my photos at:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/drmark/
Yes, this has been my experience as well on this forum. On one hand, we have people chastising Fuji for unacceptable performance/functionality and demanding an immediate fix (or simply trashing the camera). On the other hand, we have people claiming Fuji can do no wrong. I for one found myself in the middle. It's a great camera, but it does have some issues comparing to other cameras, and if you have experienced those issues done "right" in other cameras, then you wish Fuji has done the same with the X100.

I hope that we can move beyond these two extremities since it's a sure way to drive out the "moderates" in the forum as in politics.
 
What are the situations that you think would benefit from a change to this behavior? Also, have you figured out exactly how long the lag is? I agree that eliminating the lag would be an improvement, but I'm not convinced that it is critical.
I think the full version of the "serenity prayer" you quoted earlier is appropriate here:
"Grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change,
Courage to change the things I can,
And wisdom to know the difference."

People are taking strong positions based on their guesses as to whether aperture lag can be fixed.

Virimati is right to ask Fuji if they can fix it. Gava is right that it can be dealt with in most situations by half pressing the shutter in advance (which I nearly always do anyay when using AF, to get confirmation of focusing)

Clearly if it can be fixed it should be. As near as I can measure it (by the basic means of starting a stop watch as I press the shutter and taking the time of the one where I felt I precisely hit the mark of the aperture blades reaching the set position) I think it takes .5 of a second for the full dance. Note that is not an average of several attempts - most attempts showed a longer time than that, mostly .7 to .9 seconds, because of my reaction time after seeing the aperture in place. The .5 is the time I measured when I anticipated the blades being in place and felt that I had got it spot on). A part of that (probably between .1 and .2 seconds) would be attributable to the blades moving ito their set position at the end of the dance. Whether that can be fixed (by allowing the aperture to be set when the user sets it) is a different question to whether the dance can be fixed.

That .5 seconds affects grab shots. Most of the time of course you have already missed those moments by the time you can press the shutter. But sometimes you haven't, and those are the shots you miss due to aperture lag. Also in situations where you don't want subjects to react to the camera. Again, sometimes they would anyway even with no aperture lag, but other times that .5 seconds makes the difference. With no mirror to raise, it is only aperture lag which prevents the X100 outperforming DSLRs in this area (when using MF).

One odditity when I look at the issue now is that my camera no longer seems to be behaving as it did when GordonL first raised it here two months ago. In intermediate lighting conditions, it now only rarely does a half dance (going to one of the two extreme positions but not the other before going to the set aperture). Sometimes now in light as low as EV 11 it does the full dance. More often, it just goes from its stopped down position to it's set aperture without any fuss, proving that it can.

The change may be an unannounced part of the FW. Or more likely there are many more factors determining what it does in different conditions than I had supposed. Certainly the average EV of the scene is not the only factor determining what it does. The angle to the sun (or other bright light source) seems just as important.

If it can't be fixed - then the X100 is still my favourite camera. Obviously no one camera is best in all circumstances for all purposes. But I'm hoping that it can be fixed so that it will be better yet.

--
Apteryx
Thanks
--
David

http://www.dpsampson.zenfolio.com
http://www.flickr.com/photos/viramati/
 
Don't like being on the other side with you. You're one of the good guys.

My tone was meant to express frustration, not hostility or personal animosity.

For some reason DPReview seems to bring out the worst in me, and others too - perhaps it's because there is a much higher than average number of trolls here.

Anyway, that's not your fault. So please accept my apologies.

http://xkcd.com/386/

--
Fuji X100 Fanboy #1
X100 blog -> http://peri.org.uk/wp/?tag=blog
 
and no hard feelings
Don't like being on the other side with you. You're one of the good guys.

My tone was meant to express frustration, not hostility or personal animosity.

For some reason DPReview seems to bring out the worst in me, and others too - perhaps it's because there is a much higher than average number of trolls here.

Anyway, that's not your fault. So please accept my apologies.

http://xkcd.com/386/

--
Fuji X100 Fanboy #1
X100 blog -> http://peri.org.uk/wp/?tag=blog
--
David

http://www.dpsampson.zenfolio.com
http://www.flickr.com/photos/viramati/
 

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