Sigma no inventor nor business savvy, only has guts

Bill Force said:

Lin, I went into the Rolls dealership in San Francisco looking at a new Rolls in the showroom. After walking around the car a couple times I glanced underneath and there was a large shallow pan under it. I called the salesman over and asked what the pan was for on a brand new car, he stated "It's to keep the dripping oil from ruining the tile floor". Same with my XKE Jag, great looking "parked car", every darned belt and hose broke on it the first year I had it and none of the electrics worked unless you call shorting out working.

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Bill Force said:

Lin, I went into the Rolls dealership in San Francisco looking at a new Rolls in the showroom. After walking around the car a couple times I glanced underneath and there was a large shallow pan under it. I called the salesman over and asked what the pan was for on a brand new car, he stated "It's to keep the dripping oil from ruining the tile floor". Same with my XKE Jag, great looking "parked car", every darned belt and hose broke on it the first year I had it and none of the electrics worked unless you call shorting out working. I have owned and even raced 6 different Corvettes and I would suggest that Dicky look up who set the pole time for Trans Am this weekend, a Corvette.
--

' You don't have to have the best of everything to get the best out of what you do have'.

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Everlast66 said:

I think that the idea that maerican companies make the best cars is somewhat ridiculous keeping in mind that just a year or two ago they had to be saved by the american taxpayer by tens of billions of dollars.

You can find japanese cars both in Europe and the US, and european cars in both the US and Asia. However, there are hardly any american cars in Europe and Asia, which by itself testifies of their quality.

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Marty4650 said:

We take a standard Corvette ZR1, give it an Italian name... perhaps "Corvetelli"or "Corvetteratti".... then double the price.... and sell it to Brits, who would love it as long as they thought it was made in Italy...

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Marty4650 said:

--
Marty
http://www.fluidr.com/photos/marty4650/sets/72157606210120132
http://www.flickr.com/photos/marty4650/sets/72157606210120132/show/
my blog: http://marty4650.blogspot.com/
Olympus E-30
Olympus E-P1

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Lin Evans said:

I don't know Keith - maybe "build quality" and value is in the eye of the beholder - LOL.

Here's a couple examples - Used low mileage Rolls Royce - epitome of "build quality" in the U.K., right? The "flagship" of British fine luxury cars and engineering in 1994 (O.K., I'll ignore Bentley)... Add for one here in the U.S.

Chevy Corvette - cheap plastic U.S. toy car. Not even in same class with that "You can see the build quality from a mile away" look, right? 1994.

Hmmmm.. $50 difference in resale value here - guess we don't see that added value for the $300,000 difference in their "original" perceived values? ;-)

All in fun Keith....

Best regards,

Lin
--
learntomakeslidshows.net

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Jon Rty said:

http://www.lemonfree.com/WBSHD9318MBK06041.html-1

1991 BMW M5 with 82000 miles selling for 26 000$.

Aren't Cadillacs the finest in US luxury motoring?

http://www.carsforsale.com/used_cars_for_sale/1993_Cadillac_Deville_134161900

1993 Cadillac DeVille with 123 miles going for a grand total of 2500$.

Lin Evans said:

I don't know Keith - maybe "build quality" and value is in the eye of the beholder - LOL.

Here's a couple examples - Used low mileage Rolls Royce - epitome of "build quality" in the U.K., right? The "flagship" of British fine luxury cars and engineering in 1994 (O.K., I'll ignore Bentley)... Add for one here in the U.S.

Chevy Corvette - cheap plastic U.S. toy car. Not even in same class with that "You can see the build quality from a mile away" look, right? 1994.

Hmmmm.. $50 difference in resale value here - guess we don't see that added value for the $300,000 difference in their "original" perceived values? ;-)

All in fun Keith....

Best regards,

Lin
--
learntomakeslidshows.net

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Everlast66 said:

I think that the idea that maerican companies make the best cars is somewhat ridiculous keeping in mind that just a year or two ago they had to be saved by the american taxpayer by tens of billions of dollars.

You can find japanese cars both in Europe and the US, and european cars in both the US and Asia. However, there are hardly any american cars in Europe and Asia, which by itself testifies of their quality.

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Lin Evans said:

We were discussing "Corvette" and other exotic cars and the post above was comparing "British" and "US" so I don't see the relevance of these??

But in answer to your question, no. A 1993 Cadillac DeVille is not the "finest" in US luxury motoring in my opinion nor in the opinion of "most."

As far as comparisons with Bavarian autos, BMW, would be a reasonably valid one though the "market" for Corvettes is far larger here than the market for M5 sedans. A more precise comparison would be with a Z series two passenger BMW.

Best regards,

Lin

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Lin Evans said:

The issue seems to be that you apparently really don't know what an "American" car is. There are plenty of "American" cars in Europe and Asia. Here's some factoids for you:

Jaguar, Land Rover, Aston Martin and Volvo have all been "American" cars at one time or another. Lots of "Japanese" cars are built in America.

The issue of tax payers bailing out "Detroit" auto makers has little to do with the "quality" of the automobiles, but much to do with the overhead of labor costs which have been controlled by AF of L and CIO unions. The fact that you find few cars "manufactured" in the USA in Europe and Asia has primarily to do with costs, tariffs, etc., and almost nothing to do with "quality."

American car "quality" has varied over the years just as European and Asian car "quality." Today, there are few automobiles actually being totally manufactured in a single country anywhere in the world. Parts come from all over the world and "assembly" is done wherever labor is cheap. Mexico builds lots of so called "American" and so called "Japanese" cars. How about "German" vehicles? Jetta, Golf Variant, Volkswagen's New Beetle, Cabrio, Volkswagen Bus and Volkswagen Truck are built in Mexico.

Here are a few assembled in Mexico:
Cadillac Escalade EXT
Cadillac SRX
Chevrolet Avalanche
Chevrolet Aveo
Chevrolet HHR
Chevrolet Silverado and Silverado Hybrid
Dodge Journey
Fiat 500
Ford Fiesta
Ford Fusion and Fusion Hybrid
GMC Sierra, Sierra Hybrid and Sierra Crew Cab
Honda CR-V
Lincoln MKZ and MKZ Hybrid
Nissan Sentra
Nissan Versa
Ram 2500/3500/4500/5500
Toyota Tacoma
Saab 9-4X
Volkswagen Jetta/Jetta SportWagen

Another 22 are assembled in Canada...... It's not so simple as you think...

Best regards,

Lin

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Jon Rty said:

I don't think anyone is focusing on where a car is made, but where it's designed and to who's specifications it's built. Focusing on the country of manufacture would mean saying that Apple products are Chinese. It's also not very fruitful to concentrate on where the umbrella-company is based unless they affect the design and engineering of the car. Where the headquarters of the actual company is located is of much higher value.

For Volvo, it's still Göteborg
For Aston Marton, it's still Warwickshire
For Land Rover, it's still Gaydon
For Jaguar, it's still Coventry

When I at least talk about European cars I talk about cars that are designed in Europe. It doesn't really matter where it's manufactured, as it's the designer that sets the specifications for the construction and QC.

A good measure of the perceived quality of American cars outside the US is to look at the segment they occupy. American cars are as good as non-existent from the executive car segment upwards.

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Marty4650 said:

A Japanese car built in Mexico.... or an American car built in Canada, or a German car built anywhere.... will still be a better car than a French car built in France.

You can count on it.
--
Marty
http://www.fluidr.com/photos/marty4650/sets/72157606210120132
http://www.flickr.com/photos/marty4650/sets/72157606210120132/show/
my blog: http://marty4650.blogspot.com/
Olympus E-30
Olympus E-P1

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Lin Evans said:

The problem is with your reasoning is that the "owner" of the company or corporation has a very large input on the design and engineering. If you think for a moment that Ford Motor Company gave free reign to Volvo or Jaguar as far as engineering, design and QC, you know little about the automotive business.

It's "marketing" that sets specifications for design and it's engineering who must find a way to build the vehicle within the parameters as desired by the market and specified and defined by product management.

Yes, many Apple products "are" Chinese as many IBM products were assembled in the U.S.A. but of components totally manufactured in Taiwan. Now does that make them Taiwanese or American? This is exactly my point. There are few automobiles which can be said to be of any particular "origin." Regardless of "perceived" quality, there are few differences in "actual" quality among the better engineered and built vehicles regardless of whether American, European, British or Asian. Many Ford Motor products today, are the equal in "quality" of "any" other vehicles, regardless of where they are manufactured or their "perceived" quality. I've owned a sizable number European, British, American and Asian vehicles in my life and the American made were just as good and just as bad as any of the others. I've had to replace the trunk latch and right front shock on a two week old V70R Volvo. I've had cracked heads from bad engineering on a 5 series BMW, I've had to replace 3rd/4th shifter forks on a relatively new Subaru. I've had total failures from Lucas electrical systems on numerous British vehicles. I've had nothing but problems with air conditioners on 5 series BMW's and I've had alternator failures on new Volkswagen's. I've had Ferrari's which spent more time on trailers than on the road and Jaguars you couldn't drive anywhere without a tool kit close at hand. I've had sheared lug nuts on a Dodge pickup and the transmission fail on a Capri. My experience? Good and bad from every manufacturer and no better nor worse from American vehicles.

Lin

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Jon Rty said:

So you're saying you know how much Ford affected the design of Volvos or Jaguars? Could you point to something specific that changed with the cars during the 10 years Ford owned Volvo? If Ford did indeed tightly control the design of Volvos there should be a clear difference between cars made before 1999 and those made after.

Marketing doesn't set any specifications for manufacturing. They might affect the design of the car itself, but once it's off to production marketing has very little to do with the process itself.

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Jon Rty said:

It's interesting that you give the least demanding part of the whole process of making a product, manufacturing, such weight. There's a reason why production has moved to countries of cheap labor. It's because it's possible to do so. If R&D and design weren't the deciding factors of a product, then western firms would've been outpaced decades ago.

Anecdotal evidence aside, there's no question that Audi, BMW or Mercedes are all of higher quality than GM, Chevrolet or Ford. It might not be reliability, but they all posses quality that makes hundreds of thousands of people each year pay manyfold the price of anything the Detroit three produces.

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• American brand cars are getting much better. They really had no other choice
• Japanese brand cars are still the best, though slipping somewhat
• South Korean brand cars have significantly ratcheted up their quality
• There may be absolutely no hope for the British, Italian or French brands
• Scandinavian brand cars still have the best heaters. By necessity.
• I would buy a Lexus sight unseen, over the phone. They are that well made.
• German brand cars are still good, but way overpriced, and are having too many quality problems

1. Power: • 1,021 bhp @ 6,400 rpm
2. • 967 lb-ft torque @ 3,700 rpm

1. • 0-60 mph: 2.9 sec.
2. • 1/4 Mile: 10.3 @ 139 mph
3. • Top Speed: 228 mph

Jon Rty said:

The Corvette is a sports-car made by a large manufacturer. It's peers are the likes of the Nissan GT-R. Both very fast, very well handling cars offering very good performance for the money. But both are also designed to appeal more to the 15 year old than the 35 year old, and both have invested much more in performance than design, interior materials or fit and finish.

A Maserati, Aston Martin or Porsche won't be faster, but they'll look and feel ike this:

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Jon Rty said:

Marty4650 said:

We take a standard Corvette ZR1, give it an Italian name... perhaps "Corvetelli"or "Corvetteratti".... then double the price.... and sell it to Brits, who would love it as long as they thought it was made in Italy...

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Jon Rty said:

--
Marty
http://www.fluidr.com/photos/marty4650/sets/72157606210120132
http://www.flickr.com/photos/marty4650/sets/72157606210120132/show/
my blog: http://marty4650.blogspot.com/
Olympus E-30
Olympus E-P1

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