Outdoor lighting

Stanton,

Forgive me for saying so, but I think you are being a little naive.
I can see how you might say that, but I see it in a different way. If you choose to refute something someone says, it is much more effective if you address the points of contention rather than addressing the poster himself.

I didn't read all the other stuff into Paul's post that you did. Here's what I read:
I'm far from an expert when it comes to outdoor portraiture but I can give you a tip or two. IME, it's far harder to get really good portraits
outdoors because you don't have as much control over the lighting. The main thing is to get your subjects under cover. You don't want natural light hitting them from the top. The ideal location would have light blocked from all sides but the front. You can use panels and reflectors to do this and it's referred to as subtractive lighting.> >

He states up front that he's not an expert in outdoor photography. Then he goes on to give a cursory introduction to his approach to subtractive lighting. I don't see anything technically wrong...What's wrong with what he said from a technical standpoint? I use that technique all the time.

I WOULD, however, disagree with Paul's statement about it being harder to get really good portraits outdoors. With a little training, that just isn't so. But I'm not going to beat him to a pulp for that. And he might have installed a disclaimer that his explanation is but one technique for some, but not all cirucumstances. But this is the internet and we all forget to dot our i's and cross our t's.

Yes, I know that almost all topics on all forums suffer from some topic drift. But inflamatory responses are largely unnecessary. Again, I think that the thread and the forum would be better served if we addressed the issues, even correcting a response that we think missed the mark. If Paul, or I say something that needs to be challenged, there is a way that we ALL can learn from a pleasant, well meaning response. No one is open to remarks when they're given with a frown and a finger.

Sincerely,
Stanton
 
I must apologize to everyone. In the middle of this post I changed my display name ( I have been putting it off for a while now) and I don't think most of you were aware of that. Again, apologies to all. I changed my display name to GH.

Most importantly, I want to thank everyone who has taken the time to share the knowledge they have acquired and it is incredible. There is a wealth of information from all of you and everything will be of great help to anyone taking outdoor portraits. This is a great forum and I'm glad to be a part of it. I hope one day I can help others as you have helped me here.

Thanks again,
George H
 
As thouroughly as this original post has been covered I thought I
It seems they can sometimes explain things in a
way I can better understand it wheras a naturally gifted person may
not be able to break things down to my level.
Robert,

It was 1988. I sat in an all day seminar with Barry Rankin, who was at that time PPA top Master of the year (I think it was that year). His seminar was on subtractive lighting. I loved his work, but was confused, still after sitting in a class all day.

At the end of the day, I saw him as he was loading his car and approached him. I said "excuse me Barry, but I was at the seminar all day, and I'm still confused at how you do the lighting...

With that, he grabbed me by my collar and dragged me to the edge of the overhang covering the hotel entrance area. "You see what the light is doing?" he asked. "The overhang and the building block all the directions of light except that one". "You can't move the light, so move the subject to get the modeling you want. Then just take the picture". The lightbulb in my head went off... and I understood... and can now apply it not only to outdoor photography, but it affects my indoor work too.

Sometimes it just takes that ONE thing, said the right way.

Regards,
Stanton
 
Hi Guys,

it's so much more fun and confusing to call "subtractive lighting" negative fill, which is what we in the show biz industry refer to it as. just a fun thought to brighten the day

on another note, I can shoot just about anything I need with strobes or quartz however outside lighting is my current learning curve. I’ve been really lucky so far after a few disasters.

Some of the concepts put forth here about tenting and so forth are out of my budget, I work alone 90% of the time and only hire a gaffer when the job is over my head so right now I’m using an SB_80 Dx on my Fuji S2 . . . I can not put up examples of my work because I shoot nudes.

After reading these post I have decided to put the fill flash on a tripod and see how I like that at some point. Should be fun . . . thanks for all the info . . .

--
bm bradley
 
"Negative fill" is a term I picked up from the West Coast film industry also & is the way I descibe it at work. "Subtractive lighting" is a term I picked up in these forums & I don't know who coined it.

Understanding "negative fill" is as equally important as "positive fill".

Regards,
CLTHRS
 
CLTHRS

my training is west coast film, negative fill is much more fun to say than subtractive lighting. sorta like transient aboration is more fun than intermitent . . . can't be all work and no play . . .

Brian
 
A great speaker, teacher, photographer named Leon Kennamer developed the language and techniques of "Subtractive Lighting". He worked with the Larson Company to develop a set of black umbrella flats that he used in his work. A long time ago I attended a workshop at the Lake Ozarks with him and I have taught my students subtractive lighting ever since.

The main points of his technique are controlling the angle of incidence and enhancing a directional quality.

As he described it the ideal angle of incidence for commercial portraits is 45 degrees. This can be accomplished by moving your subject under a tree, porch, or any structure until the angle of incidence on the subject is 45 degrees. This is light from the sky and not direct sun. The second part of this technique is to subtract light from one side to enhance a directional quality of the lighting. I have given my students an assignment called “Edge of the Forest” this title actually describes an ideal subtractive lighting situation. To demonstrate we would walk around a lake surrounded by a dense forest and photograph our subjects under the trees. The overhead trees subtract from above (45 degrees) and the dense forest subtracts from the side to enhance directional quality.
"Negative fill" is a term I picked up from the West Coast film
industry also & is the way I descibe it at work. "Subtractive
lighting" is a term I picked up in these forums & I don't know who
coined it.

Understanding "negative fill" is as equally important as "positive
fill".

Regards,
CLTHRS
--
Jerry S
 
Negative fill is simply removing light & as such, has little in common with fomulaic lighting. I will be careful to avoid using the term "subtrative lighting" if it's been coined to describe the technique mentioned in the previous post.
As he described it the ideal angle of incidence for commercial
portraits is 45 degrees.
There is no "ideal angle" of lighting for portraits, just as there is no "ideal face". Each subject is unique & should not be treated as such. Formulaic lighting is boring & the results are usually boring. A "cookie cutter" approach will result in "cookie cutter" results.

The greatest portrait photographers have always experimented & they always will.

Regards,
CLTHRS
 
Man, Ron, you have really shown me it's lonely a sad at the top, Im glad I dont have your incredible expertise, I enjoy having friends, and I can look at myself in the mirror and not se some arsh hole who thinks he walks on water and no one else but he as an opinion.

Thanks for your words from the book of, "the world according to ron"
And all the other sheep can pack a tent along with their camera
gear, just in case any of that nasty uncontrollable ambient light
stuff threatens their guru's engraved-in-stone lighting ratios.

ron
To answer the original post, I would study some of the best
examples of what you want to do and try to work out how they were
done. It will be impossible to copy them, so get out there and
improve on them. Get the flash off camera at every opportunity, use
a sto-fen as a softener rather than a bounce aid if you can and
most importantly experiment constantly.

Good luck, I'm getting off this fence now - it's a pain in the a* e!!!

Neil
--
http://www.dg28.com
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there is theory, and then there are faces
--
bm bradley
 
I'm getting tired of your personal attacks. You're like a kid; you
can't refute what I said so you attack me personally.
What you said about outdoor lighting is profoundly stupid. Just
about any professional who has ever taken a photo outdoors would
agree. Faced with nasty natural light? Put your subject in a tent!!
duuuuuh
Monte Zucker
and JJ Allen both teach what I explained, and Ron Kramer has shown
MANY of his outdoor lighting setups where he's used huge panels to
block light and reflectors to add it. There are probably a dozen
lessons on zuga on how to accomplish this.
So that's the ONLY way to do it? OK, so you are a zuga follower.
Does that mean we all have to fall into line? From what I've seen
on the zuga website, the photography is anything but exciting. I
haven't read what he's said about outdoor lighting, but if your
summary of it is anything to go by, I've not missed much.
If you think you have a
better method, SHOW US SOME PICS!
THERE you go again. But, as you prove with mind-numbing fequency,
having pictures to post doesn't mean you have anything worth saying.

I don't post pictures? So what? I know what I'm talking about --
and the pictures YOU post prove just how LITTLE you know. You are a
hack. A hack with lots to say, but still a hack.

rm
--
Oly E-20's? -- Aint no doubt about it!
http://mywebpages.comcast.net/mackey135/njdigitalservices.htm
http://www.pbase.com/mackey
http://www.photosig.com/userphotos.php?id=3459
 
.....over at Walter Mitty's site, where you can gush with praise over turgid amateur-hour 'photography'. I know you'll be made very welcome there -- hapless amateurs always are.
 
As I have told Mitty many times already, his frequent posts supply ample evidence of the non-existence of any link between the quantity of photographs posted and knowledge and expertise acquired by the poster.
I'm getting tired of your personal attacks. You're like a kid; you
can't refute what I said so you attack me personally.
What you said about outdoor lighting is profoundly stupid. Just
about any professional who has ever taken a photo outdoors would
agree. Faced with nasty natural light? Put your subject in a tent!!
duuuuuh
Monte Zucker
and JJ Allen both teach what I explained, and Ron Kramer has shown
MANY of his outdoor lighting setups where he's used huge panels to
block light and reflectors to add it. There are probably a dozen
lessons on zuga on how to accomplish this.
So that's the ONLY way to do it? OK, so you are a zuga follower.
Does that mean we all have to fall into line? From what I've seen
on the zuga website, the photography is anything but exciting. I
haven't read what he's said about outdoor lighting, but if your
summary of it is anything to go by, I've not missed much.
If you think you have a
better method, SHOW US SOME PICS!
THERE you go again. But, as you prove with mind-numbing fequency,
having pictures to post doesn't mean you have anything worth saying.

I don't post pictures? So what? I know what I'm talking about --
and the pictures YOU post prove just how LITTLE you know. You are a
hack. A hack with lots to say, but still a hack.

rm
--
Oly E-20's? -- Aint no doubt about it!
http://mywebpages.comcast.net/mackey135/njdigitalservices.htm
http://www.pbase.com/mackey
http://www.photosig.com/userphotos.php?id=3459
 
CLTHRS I do appreciate your careful, insightful and accurate contributions to this forum as I am sure many do. I do however think that you have misinterpreted my comment. I mentioned Leon Kennamer and his teaching as an informative item as you were not aware of the origin of the term. I am sure from the level of integrity of you previous posts that you are a sophisticated and intellectual photographer.

I wonder what is the intent of a response as you have made here. I visit this site daily and only venture a comment when I feel that can make a contribution. I do observe several contributors who feel compelled to comment on every post. This is not the case for me. I felt like I made a reasonable and intelligent contribution to the discussion. The net effect of your comment was to erase and trivialize my post. Was your intent to silence and embarrass me???

I was hoping that I was contributing a historical perspective to the discussion and perhaps a simple starting point for outdoors lighting that could be helpful to a beginning photographer.

I do know how to get people started in photography, as I have been a humble professor of photography for twenty years. Beginning photographers like an understandable starting point. For example I have taught hundreds of students how to use the view camera. I am wondering now how many would have ever been successful if I simply suggest that they experiment with the camera, ”great photographers always experiment.” Isn’t it better to say, “let’s start using the front swing and tilt to place the plane of sharp focus and adjust the shape and perspective with the rear swings and tilts.

I am offended that you think I am so simple that I believe that great photographers would be satisfied with a starting point as I described.

The notion that great portrait photographers or great fashion photographers do not use formulas is naïve and makes me believe that you have not done your study of art and photography. You would like us to believe that Avedon or Penn had no formula to their lighting, or their style was pure and without influence. Avedon produced thousands of images from essentially the same impeccable lighting, talk about cookie cutter. A mature study of the history of art will reveal how rarely original ideas occur and how nearly all artists stand on the shoulders of their influences.

I know enough about how photography happens to be confident that you have some techniques in your bag of tricks that are like old friends that provide a basic starting point for a solution to lighting problems. And if this is not the case, I wish I could be on set with you when the heavens open and great light is revealed to you and your photographers. You are correct in thinking that these moments of revelation do not happen in the Midwest, and certainly not to a portrait photographer taking wedding photographs.

CLTHRS, be informed that “negative fill” as enlightened as it may be in your hands, is precisely the same as “subtractive lighting”. For a student, the important concept here is that lighting can be accomplished by removing light!!! Once the photographer gets the concept of creating light by taking away parts of what light is available, a world of possibilities open up.

CLTHRS, I came to this thread as I was in the process of reading all your post. It is obvious to me that you offer a window to high level of photography. It is important for me to follow all avenues to learn so that I give my students the best that I can. I just did not expect to get a kick in the teeth with my morning coffee; I guess this is the beauty of the Internet.

Jerry
As he described it the ideal angle of incidence for commercial
portraits is 45 degrees.
There is no "ideal angle" of lighting for portraits, just as there
is no "ideal face". Each subject is unique & should not be treated
as such. Formulaic lighting is boring & the results are usually
boring. A "cookie cutter" approach will result in "cookie cutter"
results.

The greatest portrait photographers have always experimented & they
always will.

Regards,
CLTHRS
--
Jerry S
 
I find the comment about 45* angle of lighting foolish. It has it's application, as does every other angle.

There is a debate brewing in this forum between some of the pros & others about formulaic lighting. Some of it is getting nasty. While I do have some formulas, they are free floating & I do not adhere to any of them for all subjects. I am obviously against the preachings of "ideal" lighting derived from a "formulaic" technique exposed by many of the so-called "lighting gurus".

No insult was meant towards you. But the "ideal" bit gets my hair up.

Regards,
CLTHRS
 
Flash can be a great option for improving your outdoor photography. Both of the following examples were taken in the late afternoon with a single off-camera flash triggered by a radio slave.

In this first example the flash comes in from behind and to the right of the subjects, and the setting sun comes from behind the camera This gives nice profile lighting on the male subject and a rimlight on the female's hair.



Now turning everything in the other direction, the natural sun provides the backlight and the flash, set a couple stops under, is providing a fill. The color balance is very different, but you could get a similar effect to #1 with an amber gel on the flashhead.



These photos were taken in front of a Savings & Loan on a busy boulevard. A relatively long focal length helps isolate the subjects and remove distractions. Having some overhead cover to help create split lighting can be very helpful, but the same concepts apply. Learning to "read the scene" will be helpful in determining how to work with the available light.

Regards,

Matt
 
Great to see someone make their point with examples instead of hyperbole.

Paul
http://www.paulsportraits.com
Flash can be a great option for improving your outdoor photography.
Both of the following examples were taken in the late afternoon
with a single off-camera flash triggered by a radio slave.

In this first example the flash comes in from behind and to the
right of the subjects, and the setting sun comes from behind the
camera This gives nice profile lighting on the male subject and a
rimlight on the female's hair.



Now turning everything in the other direction, the natural sun
provides the backlight and the flash, set a couple stops under, is
providing a fill. The color balance is very different, but you
could get a similar effect to #1 with an amber gel on the flashhead.



These photos were taken in front of a Savings & Loan on a busy
boulevard. A relatively long focal length helps isolate the
subjects and remove distractions. Having some overhead cover to
help create split lighting can be very helpful, but the same
concepts apply. Learning to "read the scene" will be helpful in
determining how to work with the available light.

Regards,

Matt
 
Hi George,

Try this link to some of my most recent shots. I have been shooting for about a year and so far everything is outside using one or two reflectors.

I have a 42" multidisk from adorama and a homemade 4'x5' foot pvc frame and gold foil tablecloth reflector. I usually work alone, so i needed to make a pvc stand that stands up by itself.

I have found that putting the subject in the shade and reflecting light onto them works very easily. However, if you position the model so that the sun is behind them and reflect light onto the front, it also works well. Be careful with the sun behind method that you watch the sun hitting the nose. A slight tilt to the head fixes this.

Using a polarizer is not only good for skies and greenery, but geting rid of reflections on the skin from direct sunlight and reflectors.

Using a long lens or a wide open short lens makes the subject stand out from the resulting blurry backround, but don't get stuck in that style as i seem to have done :)
Good luck and post em when you get them done.

http://www.pbase.com/roger_kea
 
Hi George,

Try this link to some of my most recent shots. I have been shooting
for about a year and so far everything is outside using one or two
reflectors.
I have a 42" multidisk from adorama and a homemade 4'x5' foot pvc
frame and gold foil tablecloth reflector. I usually work alone, so
i needed to make a pvc stand that stands up by itself.
I have found that putting the subject in the shade and reflecting
light onto them works very easily. However, if you position the
model so that the sun is behind them and reflect light onto the
front, it also works well. Be careful with the sun behind method
that you watch the sun hitting the nose. A slight tilt to the head
fixes this.
Using a polarizer is not only good for skies and greenery, but
geting rid of reflections on the skin from direct sunlight and
reflectors.
Using a long lens or a wide open short lens makes the subject stand
out from the resulting blurry backround, but don't get stuck in
that style as i seem to have done :)
Good luck and post em when you get them done.

http://www.pbase.com/roger_kea
--
Tom

'The opportunity to catch your images and fulfill your visions is today, not tomorrow.' (quote from Bjørn Rørslett)

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pbase supporter
 

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