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Ready to cancel me HS20 order because of video quality.

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jungleexplorer said:
Why do you think video is such a problem for fujifilm? I have used many P&S digital cameras from Sony and Canon that take usable video. If the HS20 could stay in focus, I think the video would be quite usable, color and sharpness wise. Honest, I would rather have lower quality video that was in focus, then the highest quality video that is out of focus.
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Its a problem for all cameras including SLR's. Thom Hogan has spoken about this at length and cameras right up to the full frame Canon D5 disappoint at some level. Amongst compacts Panasonic has had the edge for a long time now and Sony is making a showing but its all relative.

For what its worth, I have found the following really helps when using in camera video.

Set the zoom before you start, keep the view as wide as is possible in terms of the composition, keep as still as possible when recording and pan the camera slowly if you have to pan. Nothing is more off putting to watch than video that darts around and zooms in and out even though its fun to make. If the main problem with the HS20 is focusing when zooming but other than that the video is acceptable, then just compromise on the zooming, which is usually annoying to watch anyway from small cameras.

I learned this by watching a BBC cameraman shoot some home video at a function with someone elses crappy camera. He never zoomed, he stayed at the wider end and he moved sooo slowly and it came out very well. Best of all no one minded watching it afterwards as it was all so easy on the eye.

The HS20 video should be fine for many such applications but if you want to record challenging scenes with motion and variable distances, you will run into the same sorts of limitations that compacts have when compared with pro slr kit.
 
jungleexplorer said:
My point is this. Fujifilm users should scream loud and unceasingly until fujifilm gets the message. They should not boast about the video capabilities of a camera that can't even stay in focus. It is false advertising at best. Buyers should stop giving them a pass on this.
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I wonder if you are overreacting. The bigger picture is looking rather good for the HS20. If this is a make or break issue for you then yes its the wrong camera, otherwise look at all the camera's pluses and minuses and explore whether you can work around this particular limitation, which is half the fun of buying budget gear in the first place.
 
jungleexplorer said:
It is the advertised video capabilities of the HS20 that make even worth looking at, especially at the price they are asking.
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I have to disagree, its a budget camera, look at the price of the just released Nikon D5100.

Here is the link to the HS20 page, I don't think Fuji have been misleading in the overview or the specifications about the video.

http://www.fujifilm.com/products/digital_cameras/s/finepix_hs20exr/

They focus on its HI Def and low light capability not its ability to zoom around its 30X range. Even the example they show has no panning or zoom.
 
Wellington100 said:
Set the zoom before you start, keep the view as wide as is possible in terms of the composition, keep as still as possible when recording and pan the camera slowly if you have to pan. Nothing is more off putting to watch than video that darts around and zooms in and out even though its fun to make. If the main problem with the HS20 is focusing when zooming but...
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I really feel the need to mention this again because we seem to keep coming back to the zooming focus issue and ignoring a more serious focus issue. This isn't simply about poor focus while zooming. This is also about Fuji auto-focus not being able to keep up with action without constantly hunting for focus which in turn creates far too much out-of-focus video footage.

Technically speaking, I could not agree more with the technique of avoiding zooming while recording. Constant zooming while recording is annoying to watch. Fast, jerky panning is not only annoying but it makes me dizzy. So, I have always avoided doing these things when shooting video unless I was hoping for some sort of artistic effect with zooming... or zooming in on a small detail. Using this effect should be rare, but it occurs at times for artistic reasons. Other than that, I prefer to avoid zooming while recording. And there is never a good time for fast, jerky panning so I will concede that we should minimize (not throw out) the complaints about focus problems related to this.

That being said, I still expect any camera which is advertised to record video to be able to accurately focus on kids playing at the playground... kids swimming... kids playing sports... or any of a million family/kid activities. This is why families want video capabilities. Unfortunately, the Fuji cameras have great difficulties with keeping fast, accurate focus on moving subjects and this not only is problematic for most people, but it seems to mostly be problematic for only Fuji camera consumers.

Fuji actually advertises "Super High Quality" video and "high sensitivity to capture exceptionally crisp and colorful full HD video". "Super High Quality"? "Exceptionally crisp"? When Fuji advertises something such as this, I believe it is very reasonable that the consumer expects a certain level of quality video. Once a manufacturer advertises 'super high quality HD video' it is no longer just a 'freebie' addon feature that the consumer should just accept at any quality, or lack thereof. Fuji is advertising exceptional video and trying to sell their cameras as functional 'Super high quality HD video"... end of story. This claim of these Fuji cams being functional HD video cameras comes right from Fuji. So, the consumer should have a reasonable expectation of the advertised camera providing 'acceptable high quality' video.

A camera which is advertised to provide 'super high quality HD video' should do just that when I buy it to record the precious moments with my children playing. It should not provide footage of in and out and in and out and in and out auto-focus hunting.

A camera which is advertised to provide 'exceptionally crisp and colorful full HD video' should indeed be crisp and colorful and in obvious HD. It cannot be 'crisp' if it is hunting for focus because my kids are in motion... or because the dog is running... or because of a million other things that move in a video, hence shooting video and not a still image. And, if it is 'super high quality HD video', as the manufacturer claims, I should not see blotchy compression artifacting on my television screen during playback.

Fuji has made claims about their cameras being high quality HD video cameras. Now, the users want to see the 'high quality' Fuji claims in order to sell these cameras. I do not feel this is an unreasonable request. Especially since other manufacturers do indeed provide reasonable and acceptable quality.

Patrick
 
Very well said, Patrick. I couldn't have said this any better even if I wanted to.

I remember my good ol' Canon S5IS superzoom a few years ago which offered a 12x optical (max range during its time) and allowed us to zoom slowly and silently. It also had a 2-speed variable zooming option - very slow and a bit faster. It was great at maintaining center focus while we zoomed in an out.

And, to top it all off, even the audio zoomed with the frame ... i.e. at full zoom the microphone amplified the sounds emanating from the zoomed frame accordingly.

All this was offered by Canon several years ago. Fuji simply has no excuse not to correct the auto-focus capability during video to, at least, the same standard which was offered several years ago.

......
Click

 
Wellington100 said:
For what its worth, I have found the following really helps when using in camera video.

Set the zoom before you start, keep the view as wide as is possible in terms of the composition, keep as still as possible when recording and pan the camera slowly if you have to pan. Nothing is more off putting to watch than video that darts around and zooms in and out even though its fun to make. If the main problem with the HS20 is focusing when zooming but other than that the video is acceptable, then just compromise on the zooming, which is usually annoying to watch anyway from small cameras.

I learned this by watching a BBC cameraman shoot some home video at a function with someone elses crappy camera. He never zoomed, he stayed at the wider end and he moved sooo slowly and it came out very well. Best of all no one minded watching it afterwards as it was all so easy on the eye.

The HS20 video should be fine for many such applications but if you want to record challenging scenes with motion and variable distances, you will run into the same sorts of limitations that compacts have when compared with pro slr kit.
Click to expand...
I totally agree with the filming technique you are talking about. I learned this long ago. I normally only shoot video from a tripod in situations where I will be zooming a lot. But that said, the samples I have seen of HS20 demonstrate a focus problem at all levels of zoom when it is full auto focus mode. It does not do this in center focus mode and if I do end up with this camera, that is the only mode that I see as usable for video.
 
Right on Patrick.

These detailed explanations make so much sense.

After reading your post, those who keep coming back trying to descredit the uproar about video should really pause for a second and evaluate their reasons for trying to protect a company that does not deliver on its promises. Since the video is so lame (many have recognised this fact), and they don't see much use for it, they should call on Fuji to completely eliminate video from their cameras because in its present incarnation, it's shameful and shows their engineer's as being unable to compete with the other big names. By so doing, Fuji buyers would not be deceived and should even expect to pay less for their digital stills cameras. But wouldn't that be a recognition of incapacity on the part of Fuji on the issue of video?

Despite the hard stand that I have taken about Fuji's advertisements of their Full HD video, I applaud Fuji for the improvements made to the IQ of stills photography. Now if they could just hire some Sony engineers, the video problem would probably be resolved quickly and Fuji could at last bring about a bridge camera that would outclass the top brands such as Sony and Panasonic. I would be delighted and would buy such a competent Fuji bridge camera without hesitation.

I think that in order for Fuji to gets its act together, we the potential buyers must keep the pressure on Fuji to face this obvious problem and to solve it once and for all.
 
Wellington100 said:
I wonder if you are overreacting. The bigger picture is looking rather good for the HS20. If this is a make or break issue for you then yes its the wrong camera, otherwise look at all the camera's pluses and minuses and explore whether you can work around this particular limitation, which is half the fun of buying budget gear in the first place.
Click to expand...
First off, this is not a budget camera from my economic position. To me a $99 wal-mart P&S is a budget camera like I bought for my daughter for her birthday. And it has no problem staying in focus. My canon SD1100IS has no problem staying in focus either. My Sony V1 has no problem staying in focus. Shall I continue? The list is quite long. There is no reason the HS20 at $500 should not be able to do what these $99 budget cameras can do. End of argument. I am one of those few people that believe that technology is moving way to fast and we all need to stop and take the time to refine the technology that already exist instead on jumping on the latest "theoretical" advancement.

If you want to get down to the real problem, it is the "waste and churn" economy model that governs the value of the US dollar. In the old days, manufacturers built refined equipment that would last for generations, because people would not buy it unless it was a refined quality product. But the the US switch from the gold standard to the economy model which requires and ever growing consumer base to keep the dollar strong. But as the US has become more prosperous, vain and self centered, people have started to have less children. This along with abortion has resulted in a population growth stagnation, or recession if you take out immigration. And since the US exports very little manufactured goods, that means the US has a limited market base and once that market base is glutted, there is no one left to buy anything. The death of the Atari corporation is a prime example of a company that glutted the market and went down because they had no marketing plan to force people to keep buying new equipment. In a limited market base situation, there is only one way to keep the economy growing. You must keep selling the same products to the same people over and over again. You do this by manufacturing junk that won't last, or by designed obsolescence, or by inciting consumers to buy new stuff on the promise of improvements in new technology that claim to fix the defects with the last model. If you don't believe me, ask yourself this question: Why is it that every time there is a economic downturn, the government lowers the interest rate to encourage people to barrow more money? You see, if Americans are not spending money hand over fist, the economy starts to crash and the dollars starts to lose value.

Lets just pretend for a moment that Fujifilm made the HS20, perfect in every way and that it would last for the next hundred years. Well, there would be a lot less camera buyers that would ever return to the market. Maybe now you are getting a DSLR quality picture of what's really going on.
 
Simply put, if folks stop buying stuff they don't need with money they don't have, manufacturers will be forced to give up the planned obsolescence model. Consumers are the weak link in the chain because they've had the privilege of borrowed money for these last several decades. Oh, and they're also being forced to pay usury (read "loanshark") rates on that credit. It's called self-inflicted indentured servitude. :D
 
jungleexplorer said:
Wellington100 said:
I wonder if you are overreacting. The bigger picture is looking rather good for the HS20. If this is a make or break issue for you then yes its the wrong camera, otherwise look at all the camera's pluses and minuses and explore whether you can work around this particular limitation, which is half the fun of buying budget gear in the first place.
Click to expand...
First off, this is not a budget camera from my economic position. To me a $99 wal-mart P&S is a budget camera like I bought for my daughter for her birthday. And it has no problem staying in focus. My canon SD1100IS has no problem staying in focus either. My Sony V1 has no problem staying in focus. Shall I continue? The list is quite long. There is no reason the HS20 at $500 should not be able to do what these $99 budget cameras can do. End of argument. I am one of those few people that believe that technology is moving way to fast and we all need to stop and take the time to refine the technology that already exist instead on jumping on the latest "theoretical" advancement.
Click to expand...
I find the top end Fuji cameras pretty pricey. I have developed a strategy of waiting until the prices fall before I commit to a camera and as you point out below, they are designed to be disposable these days.
jungleexplorer said:
If you want to get down to the real problem, it is the "waste and churn" economy model that governs the value of the US dollar. In the old days, manufacturers built refined equipment that would last for generations, because people would not buy it unless it was a refined quality product. But the the US switch from the gold standard to the economy model which requires and ever growing consumer base to keep the dollar strong. But as the US has become more prosperous, vain and self centered, people have started to have less children. This along with abortion has resulted in a population growth stagnation, or recession if you take out immigration. And since the US exports very little manufactured goods, that means the US has a limited market base and once that market base is glutted, there is no one left to buy anything. The death of the Atari corporation is a prime example of a company that glutted the market and went down because they had no marketing plan to force people to keep buying new equipment. In a limited market base situation, there is only one way to keep the economy growing. You must keep selling the same products to the same people over and over again. You do this by manufacturing junk that won't last, or by designed obsolescence, or by inciting consumers to buy new stuff on the promise of improvements in new technology that claim to fix the defects with the last model. If you don't believe me, ask yourself this question: Why is it that every time there is a economic downturn, the government lowers the interest rate to encourage people to barrow more money? You see, if Americans are not spending money hand over fist, the economy starts to crash and the dollars starts to lose value.
Click to expand...
With all due respect to the very clever and enterprising Chinese, it also looks like the WTO never imagined that under a free trade system a country like China would be choose to manage its currency in such a way that American and other Western jobs, can never be competitive again. I don't think this is true free trade or globalisation, I think that China now has a built in bias favouring its export prices across the board that is the equivalent of dumping, simply because its currency is being held down artificially year after year. The loss of jobs and the loss of skills in the West as a result of this has been heartbreaking.
jungleexplorer said:
Lets just pretend for a moment that Fujifilm made the HS20, perfect in every way and that it would last for the next hundred years. Well, there would be a lot less camera buyers that would ever return to the market. Maybe now you are getting a DSLR quality picture of what's really going on.
Click to expand...
One thing that you have take into account though is that the day the camera went digital, it stopped being a category in its own right and became a computer accessory. Mechanical technology like film cameras measured advances in decades and as you say were built to last, a camera was an investment when I was young. Nowadays when most of the value in a digital camera is firmware, sensors, software, algorithms and accompanying PC and Mac software, camera technology is being improved on a daily basis by geeks all over the world and software based features are just an algorithm away. Obsolescence is being driven by continuous changes to software.

It looks like this has happened with the focusing of the HS20. In order to give the camera a feature where the user can snap an 8mb still image while recording, some software was changed that disabled the centre focusing setting from autofocusing after a zoom so the user could press the shutter button to refocus and take a picture while recording. The F550 does autofocus after zooming making the F550 video much more normal and usable but it cannot take the still photo.

I suspect Fuji will have to fix this in a firmware upgrade as its quite a big issue but the alternative is to try the F550 out.
 
expressivecanvas said:
expressivecanvas said:
Set the zoom before you start, keep the view as wide as is possible in terms of the composition, keep as still as possible when recording and pan the camera slowly if you have to pan. Nothing is more off putting to watch than video that darts around and zooms in and out even though its fun to make. If the main problem with the HS20 is focusing when zooming but...
Click to expand...
I really feel the need to mention this again because we seem to keep coming back to the zooming focus issue and ignoring a more serious focus issue. This isn't simply about poor focus while zooming. This is also about Fuji auto-focus not being able to keep up with action without constantly hunting for focus which in turn creates far too much out-of-focus video footage.

Technically speaking, I could not agree more with the technique of avoiding zooming while recording. Constant zooming while recording is annoying to watch. Fast, jerky panning is not only annoying but it makes me dizzy. So, I have always avoided doing these things when shooting video unless I was hoping for some sort of artistic effect with zooming... or zooming in on a small detail. Using this effect should be rare, but it occurs at times for artistic reasons. Other than that, I prefer to avoid zooming while recording. And there is never a good time for fast, jerky panning so I will concede that we should minimize (not throw out) the complaints about focus problems related to this.

That being said, I still expect any camera which is advertised to record video to be able to accurately focus on kids playing at the playground... kids swimming... kids playing sports... or any of a million family/kid activities. This is why families want video capabilities. Unfortunately, the Fuji cameras have great difficulties with keeping fast, accurate focus on moving subjects and this not only is problematic for most people, but it seems to mostly be problematic for only Fuji camera consumers.

Fuji actually advertises "Super High Quality" video and "high sensitivity to capture exceptionally crisp and colorful full HD video". "Super High Quality"? "Exceptionally crisp"? When Fuji advertises something such as this, I believe it is very reasonable that the consumer expects a certain level of quality video. Once a manufacturer advertises 'super high quality HD video' it is no longer just a 'freebie' addon feature that the consumer should just accept at any quality, or lack thereof. Fuji is advertising exceptional video and trying to sell their cameras as functional 'Super high quality HD video"... end of story. This claim of these Fuji cams being functional HD video cameras comes right from Fuji. So, the consumer should have a reasonable expectation of the advertised camera providing 'acceptable high quality' video.

A camera which is advertised to provide 'super high quality HD video' should do just that when I buy it to record the precious moments with my children playing. It should not provide footage of in and out and in and out and in and out auto-focus hunting.

A camera which is advertised to provide 'exceptionally crisp and colorful full HD video' should indeed be crisp and colorful and in obvious HD. It cannot be 'crisp' if it is hunting for focus because my kids are in motion... or because the dog is running... or because of a million other things that move in a video, hence shooting video and not a still image. And, if it is 'super high quality HD video', as the manufacturer claims, I should not see blotchy compression artifacting on my television screen during playback.

Fuji has made claims about their cameras being high quality HD video cameras. Now, the users want to see the 'high quality' Fuji claims in order to sell these cameras. I do not feel this is an unreasonable request. Especially since other manufacturers do indeed provide reasonable and acceptable quality.

Patrick
Click to expand...
I understand the issue more clearly now. Thank you for explaining it again. It certainly looks like a major weakness and not what was promised on the tin. As an experienced video user, you obviously know what is acceptable and what is not.

I think in their desire to provide a Swiss Army knife experience that ticks every conceivable box, Fuji has not done its due diligence on minimum levels of functionality in this case. As you say super hi quality HD video sounds like something special not out of focus mush that plays back at hi definition resolutions.

It will be interesting to see whether Fuji respond to your letter. Have you come across The Fuji Guys. I watch them on YouTube sometimes but apparently they are on Twitter so you might be able to Tweet them about this issue as well.

Good luck with resolving it.
 
Glad it's just not me that feels like that. I find I never use video on any of my cameras. If I ever do, it will only ever be for a very short clip and for a bit of fun. If I feel I want to use video more extensively in the future I would buy a video camera. Sometimes wish they had never even added it to stills cameras.
 
Draek:
Draek said:
Draek said:
So I maintain my opinion: you want video, get a camcorder.
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
There is no doubt if you want the BEST video get a camcorder...But cameras like the Panny FZ100 have closed the gap so much that frankly they are good enough...I paid $375 for my FZ100 and there is no way any camcorder for that price can match it's video and stills capability...

I urge to try a FZ100 and see what I'm talking about...And then you'll see why the video from the HS20 looks and operates so amateurish...The jury is still out on the HS20 stills as I still haven't seen anything to excite me...Sure there are some small, nice, colorful examples which prove squat in actual IQ...

lw
Draek said:
You're right, I must've missed that one months ago when I looked at cameras with a friend. Still, that's kind of Panasonic's "trick", Canon IIRC doesn't on the SX30, and dunno about the Sony HX100V as that one's newer but considering they don't even offer manual control on the A55, I highly doubt it.

So I maintain my opinion: you want video, get a camcorder.
--
http://www.flickr.com/photos/Draek
Click to expand...
 
Larry Winters said:
Larry Winters wrote:

stills as I still haven't seen anything to excite me...Sure there are some small, nice, > colorful examples which prove squat in actual IQ...

lw
Click to expand...
The HS20 quite possibly blows the FZ100 out of the water for stills, I just did a comparison series between the FZ35, the LX5, and the HS20.
Lets just say the LX5 is a fairer comparison to the HS20.
Time to get excited Larry.......
:)
 
Hello Daniel
Daniel Lowe said:
Daniel Lowe said:
The HS20 quite possibly blows the FZ100 out of the water for stills, I just did a comparison series between the FZ35, the LX5, and the HS20.
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
From what I saw in that test the FZ35 is sharper up to ISO 400 and possibly 800 over the HS20...Samples are too small to be sure...The differences are so small, why would I want to get exited anyway?...I am a outdoor daylight landscape photographer, not a sit in the dark corner low light shooter...

Also, I can process my FZ100 RAW files via Lightroom which improves the IQ dramatically...Silkypix just can't compete with LR in performance or speed...So even if a HS20 jpg image does hold a slight advantage, the FZ100 Raw converted image will probably close the gap...Even so the differences are so small...

Anyway it doesn't matter too much because the HS20 won't match the s100fs for stills or the FZ100 for video, so there you have it...

lw
Daniel Lowe said:
Daniel Lowe said:
Larry Winters wrote:

stills as I still haven't seen anything to excite me...Sure there are some small, nice, > colorful examples which prove squat in actual IQ...

lw
Click to expand...
The HS20 quite possibly blows the FZ100 out of the water for stills, I just did a comparison series between the FZ35, the LX5, and the HS20.
Lets just say the LX5 is a fairer comparison to the HS20.
Time to get excited Larry.......
:)
Click to expand...
 
theranman said:
Simply put, if folks stop buying stuff they don't need with money they don't have, manufacturers will be forced to give up the planned obsolescence model. Consumers are the weak link in the chain because they've had the privilege of borrowed money for these last several decades. Oh, and they're also being forced to pay usury (read "loanshark") rates on that credit. It's called self-inflicted indentured servitude. :D
Click to expand...
While what you said may be true, it is almost a economically terroristic statement to suggest that people should stop spending money. If people really did so, it would destroy the US economy over night. America is called the home of liberty and the land of the free. But if you look closely you will see that just about the only thing you have the liberty and freedom to do anymore is to earn and spend money. Almost all of our former rights that use to be free, have now been converted into privileges that we have to pay to take advantage of. And while I think the American people have willing participants in that they have sacrificed freedom and liberty on the alter of prosperity; I think they have done so do to ignorance and complacency rather then intentionally. As a people we have not learned the lessons of thousands of years of human history readily available to us and are therefore destined to repeat the same mistake that led to the demise of other prosperous societies in the past. I have always said, "It is better to learn from other's mistakes then from your own." But humans seldom follow that sound advice, choosing learn lessons themselves by repeating the same mistakes that billions of humans have made for thousands of years.
 
Nowadays when most of the value in a digital camera is firmware, sensors, software, algorithms and accompanying PC and Mac software, camera technology is being improved on a daily basis by geeks all over the world and software based features are just an algorithm away. Obsolescence is being driven by continuous changes to software.

Well to some extent you may be right about this, but I have first hand knowledge of several instances that it is not true. A lot of technology advances are not "NEW" in the sense that they were just discovered. They are only new in the sense that they are just now being made available to the public. Take the Blue Ray disk for example. I went through computer tech school in 1999. We learned back then that the technology existed to write 20 gigabytes or more to a CD. Was that available to the public back then? No! It was introduced in steps and each step required people to re-buy new equipment to support the new technology. The same is true of flash memory technology. Samsung developed a technology years ago to write 1000 times the data to the current flash technology with only minor changes to the physical structure to the flash disk itself. This would turn a 8GB SD card into a 8TB SD card. When will they release this to the public? Just like the Blue Ray disk, it will released in steps. Why? Waste and Churn economy!
 
jungleexplorer said:
It's official! The HS20 has a serious problem with video. I did not want to believe it, but I cannot deny it now. I don't know where to go for my all in one camera now.
Click to expand...
Much like you, I dismissed recent Fuji cameras because of the poor video support. Then I discovered that the HS20 can be used in some kind of pseudo manual focus mode :

http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1012&message=38140378

I think it may work just fine for me. No hunting that blurs the picture at the most inappropriate times, and enough depth of field from the small sensor to keep the video in focus.
 
Amazon just informed me that they were able to ship my camera (HS20) a week earlier then they expected. Oh Joy!. Now I am committed. Well, I guess it will be alright. I tell you what. I will test out the video real good and get back with you guys. Thanks for all the advice.
 
I have been using the fz100, was disappointed in the low light video ability, though using dynamic film mode and -2 contrast, -2 NR and 2/3EV seem to help alot (or a hot shoe LED would probably fix this).. I love its performance and the quality of the shots.

Today i received the HS20 to test.. I tried every combination possible with focusing, its terrible, constantly goes out of focus even if on a tripod or sitting still.. zoom, well, its a mess..

I did an iso 100 manual shot in aperature mode on the fz100 (using someones suggested nature film mode settings that have worked well), compared that same shot to the hs20 at iso100 and in exr mode, i found the fz100 shot to be better.

Granted this was all in my first 20 minutes of using the fuji, but so far i'd say the fuji is going back and sticking with the fz100
 
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