George H
Leading Member
I would like to take some outdoor portraits and get professional results. If the experts here could give me some ideas as to how to take shots outdoors I can really use the help.
Thanks,
George
Thanks,
George
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Outdoor lighting
- Thread starter George H
- Start date
Paul Ferrara
Senior Member
I'm far from an expert when it comes to outdoor portraiture but I can give you a tip or two. IME, it's far harder to get really good portraits outdoors because you don't have as much control over the lighting. The main thing is to get your subjects under cover. You don't want natural light hitting them from the top. The ideal location would have light blocked from all sides but the front. You can use panels and reflectors to do this and it's referred to as subtractive lighting.
As a last resort you can use flash fill at about two stops under the ambient light but it's not really the same. There are a number of books out on location photography including a new one by J.J. Allen, which I have but which is out on loan to a friend so I don't have the title handy. But amazon should have it.
Paul
http://www.paulsportraits.com
As a last resort you can use flash fill at about two stops under the ambient light but it's not really the same. There are a number of books out on location photography including a new one by J.J. Allen, which I have but which is out on loan to a friend so I don't have the title handy. But amazon should have it.
Paul
http://www.paulsportraits.com
George H
Leading Member
So I will be looking for certain lighting situations as to not make a rather flat look? And the flash fill, should this be used with something like a Sto-fen Omni-Bounce to avoid the red-eye?
Paul Ferrara
Senior Member
Flash should be used as a last resort. And if you're going to use it, get it off camera. You don't need an omni-bounce since there's nothing to bounce the light off. Just set your flash to be well under the ambient light.
Paul
http://www.paulsportraits.com
Paul
http://www.paulsportraits.com
ron mcmillan
Leading Member
George,
The entire post from Paul Ferrara is spoken from a position of profound ignorance and absolute denial. It is at best not worth reading, and at worst, seriously misleading. Jeezuz -- outdoor shooting is at threat from all the aaaarrrrggghh LIGHT, so if you HAVE to do it, you should put your subject in a tent or something to subtract all that nasty ambient light!!??
This is a forum read by many impressionable amateur photographers who are desperate to learn from 'professionals', and the BS from PF about the absolute necessity of getting subjects under cover and eliminating natural light from almost all sides is at once laughably stupid -- and blatantly misleading to forum readers eager to add to their understanding of light and lighting.
Working with outdoor light is all about adapting to the circumstances, making the best of them, and, if necessary adding to them with your equipment -- so that you get an exciting interpretation of the wonderful reality that is natural ambient light. Doing so requires an understanding of how light works, something that is blatantly absent from some so-called photographers' grasps of what makes a photograph worth looking at.
ron
The entire post from Paul Ferrara is spoken from a position of profound ignorance and absolute denial. It is at best not worth reading, and at worst, seriously misleading. Jeezuz -- outdoor shooting is at threat from all the aaaarrrrggghh LIGHT, so if you HAVE to do it, you should put your subject in a tent or something to subtract all that nasty ambient light!!??
This is a forum read by many impressionable amateur photographers who are desperate to learn from 'professionals', and the BS from PF about the absolute necessity of getting subjects under cover and eliminating natural light from almost all sides is at once laughably stupid -- and blatantly misleading to forum readers eager to add to their understanding of light and lighting.
Working with outdoor light is all about adapting to the circumstances, making the best of them, and, if necessary adding to them with your equipment -- so that you get an exciting interpretation of the wonderful reality that is natural ambient light. Doing so requires an understanding of how light works, something that is blatantly absent from some so-called photographers' grasps of what makes a photograph worth looking at.
ron
Daniel Payne
Senior Member
George,
Here's a photo I created this summer in my backyard. Sunlight provides the hair light, then a flash from camera right puts sparkle in the eyes. The rest of the body is in the shade from a tree.
--
Daniel Payne
Canon D60
http://danieljpayne.com/
Here's a photo I created this summer in my backyard. Sunlight provides the hair light, then a flash from camera right puts sparkle in the eyes. The rest of the body is in the shade from a tree.
--
Daniel Payne
Canon D60
http://danieljpayne.com/
Paul Ferrara
Senior Member
I'm getting tired of your personal attacks. You're like a kid; you can't refute what I said so you attack me personally. Monte Zucker and JJ Allen both teach what I explained, and Ron Kramer has shown MANY of his outdoor lighting setups where he's used huge panels to block light and reflectors to add it. There are probably a dozen lessons on zuga on how to accomplish this. If you think you have a better method, SHOW US SOME PICS!
Paul
http://www.paulsportraits.com
Paul
http://www.paulsportraits.com
Paul Ferrara
Senior Member
I've never seen a message from Phil appointing you the guardian of truth on this forum so apparently you're self-appointed. Well, guess what...readers can choose for themselves what and who to believe and if you haven't noticed I POST EXAMPLES along with many of my messages.
Paul
http://www.paulsportraits.com
Paul
http://www.paulsportraits.com
ron mcmillan
Leading Member
What you said about outdoor lighting is profoundly stupid. Just about any professional who has ever taken a photo outdoors would agree. Faced with nasty natural light? Put your subject in a tent!! duuuuuh
So that's the ONLY way to do it? OK, so you are a zuga follower. Does that mean we all have to fall into line? From what I've seen on the zuga website, the photography is anything but exciting. I haven't read what he's said about outdoor lighting, but if your summary of it is anything to go by, I've not missed much.
THERE you go again. But, as you prove with mind-numbing fequency, having pictures to post doesn't mean you have anything worth saying.
I don't post pictures? So what? I know what I'm talking about -- and the pictures YOU post prove just how LITTLE you know. You are a hack. A hack with lots to say, but still a hack.
rm
George H
Leading Member
What I would like to accomplish is to create some shots that are more than just the average snapshot. What things really seperate or make special a good outdoor shot to a great one? What specific criteria is in a great outdoor shot? How should the light hit the face? Should it be contrasty or even? Should DOF be shallow? Im just looking for a goal to shoot for.
Thanks again
Thanks again
Kel Toookay
Senior Member
I usually try to shoot at the end of the day, when the light is interesting (color and angle). Out here on the California coast we are lucky when the marine layer (clouds) rolls in at the right time to add a gentle diffusion to the sun. I sometimes will bring out studio strobes with 10x10 diffusers and or softboxes. Since this involves a generator and a permit, I don't do it very often.
I have never had much luck with any sort of on camera fill flash. I usually use a 4x8 or 8x8 foamcore reflector.
A friend of mine uses battery powered lumidyne strobes with a medium or small softbox on it for the model shots he does. He also shoots at the end of the day. Gets great results. But sometimes shoots way too many CF cards on the same set up...
Reflectors are easier to use than strobes. Until you know where to put the lights, it doesn't matter if you are in a studio or outside.
When forced to shoot in the awful part of the day, I have had to "tent" the subject or put them in a shady spot and then bounce some daylight on them.
--
Mike D
Buy a pro camera and you are pro photographer,
buy a flute and you own a flute.
Steven Lott
Leading Member
Is a sample image of what the light diagram at the link below created
Steven Lott
http://www.LottsPhoto.com/ProTips.htm
Paul Ferrara
Senior Member
Take a look at Ron Kramer's pics. Go to the senior gallery and look at the outdoor shots.
http://www.houseofphotography.com/
All of those were taken with natural light only, augmented by gobos and reflectors. No flash fill, in other words.
So there's a goal for you. Personally, I find existing light portraiture (as opposed to snapshots) to be far more difficult than studio work where everything is under my control.
Then go to ron mcmillan's site and look at his pics, which I'm sure are a lot better. Well, that's what he'll tell you anyway.
Paul
http://www.paulsportraits.com
http://www.houseofphotography.com/
All of those were taken with natural light only, augmented by gobos and reflectors. No flash fill, in other words.
So there's a goal for you. Personally, I find existing light portraiture (as opposed to snapshots) to be far more difficult than studio work where everything is under my control.
Then go to ron mcmillan's site and look at his pics, which I'm sure are a lot better. Well, that's what he'll tell you anyway.
Paul
http://www.paulsportraits.com
George Law
Veteran Member
George,
I use two Sunpak 544 handle mount strobes with Lumiquest pocket bouncers. Sometimes one on camera and the other on a lightstand, other times both on light stands.
I do this with both film and digital.
If you would care to see some examples and discuss further, email me at http://[email protected]
George
http://www.pbase.com/law
N
Neil Turner
Guest
Whilst I enjoy the odd fight on this forum, I cannot sit by and watch the truth (as I see it) be ignored. I shoot on location every day, I find that shooting outdoors presents new and interesting challenges every day.
First of all, (and my agreeing with him will upset him) Paul is right when he says that life is a lot easier when you have total control of the light. Many photographers (me included sometimes) arrange their shot outdoors to allow them to light the subject and let nature light the background. That's fine for certain subjects, but it can be very time and labour intensive.
Contrarily Mike is right when he says that the joy of working outdoors is to work with what's there and to get the best from nature. Shock horror, both protagonists are right...up to a point.
The complete answer is that the best photographers have all techniques at their disposal and have the wisdom to use what is right for that given situation, and that subject. Even the end use of the image will dictate how you tackle the job. Direct and un-flattering sunshine on any subject is best avoided 99% of the time, but 1 in 100 it can work. Applying too many rules to photography just stifles creativity and often the most striking work smashes the rules to pieces.
To answer the original post, I would study some of the best examples of what you want to do and try to work out how they were done. It will be impossible to copy them, so get out there and improve on them. Get the flash off camera at every opportunity, use a sto-fen as a softener rather than a bounce aid if you can and most importantly experiment constantly.
Good luck, I'm getting off this fence now - it's a pain in the a* e!!!
Neil
--
http://www.dg28.com
First of all, (and my agreeing with him will upset him) Paul is right when he says that life is a lot easier when you have total control of the light. Many photographers (me included sometimes) arrange their shot outdoors to allow them to light the subject and let nature light the background. That's fine for certain subjects, but it can be very time and labour intensive.
Contrarily Mike is right when he says that the joy of working outdoors is to work with what's there and to get the best from nature. Shock horror, both protagonists are right...up to a point.
The complete answer is that the best photographers have all techniques at their disposal and have the wisdom to use what is right for that given situation, and that subject. Even the end use of the image will dictate how you tackle the job. Direct and un-flattering sunshine on any subject is best avoided 99% of the time, but 1 in 100 it can work. Applying too many rules to photography just stifles creativity and often the most striking work smashes the rules to pieces.
To answer the original post, I would study some of the best examples of what you want to do and try to work out how they were done. It will be impossible to copy them, so get out there and improve on them. Get the flash off camera at every opportunity, use a sto-fen as a softener rather than a bounce aid if you can and most importantly experiment constantly.
Good luck, I'm getting off this fence now - it's a pain in the a* e!!!
Neil
--
http://www.dg28.com
ron mcmillan
Leading Member
It's nice to have someone post a message whose content owes something to actual knowledge of photography, rather than re-hashing the formulae of a dodgy guru in permanent search of THE prescribed portrait 'look' (boooooring). I particularly agree with your last paragraph, Neil. Good photography is about exploring the limits of yourself, your equipment -- and the ever-changing environment. Environmental portraiture makes for daunting, but thrilling challenges, and any real enthusiast with any sense of creative curiosity will rise to those challenges and make what he/she can of each situation.
And all the other sheep can pack a tent along with their camera gear, just in case any of that nasty uncontrollable ambient light stuff threatens their guru's engraved-in-stone lighting ratios.
ron
And all the other sheep can pack a tent along with their camera gear, just in case any of that nasty uncontrollable ambient light stuff threatens their guru's engraved-in-stone lighting ratios.
ron
photolando
Veteran Member
There really isn't that much difference in lighting outside than there is lighting inside. Just think of the sun as a very high powered strobe and it's placement.
You can't move the sun but you can: diffuse it, reflect it or block it.
This is where the beauty of panels come in to play. Even at mid day. When I shoot ouside in bright sunlight, I will usually have one diffusion panel to put between the subject and the raw sunlight. A reflector panel to fill in the shadow side of the subject and sometimes a mirror to add highlights to the hair. Sounds sort of like a studio set up, no?
Or, sometimes it's as simple as putting the late after noon or early morning sun behind the subject and reflecting the sunlight back into the subject. Windy days can be a problem.
There are a lot of photogaphers here. All have their opinions of what makes a good photograph. Some like traditional portraiture, others like a more editorial look. No one is right or wrong. Photography is so subjective. But it all comes down to how you want to control your light. I'd like to see more people in here post more positive responses than things like 'your wrong' 'that can't be done' 'there is only one way' etc.
The personal attacks are so childish and contribute nothing.
Mike
You can't move the sun but you can: diffuse it, reflect it or block it.
This is where the beauty of panels come in to play. Even at mid day. When I shoot ouside in bright sunlight, I will usually have one diffusion panel to put between the subject and the raw sunlight. A reflector panel to fill in the shadow side of the subject and sometimes a mirror to add highlights to the hair. Sounds sort of like a studio set up, no?
Or, sometimes it's as simple as putting the late after noon or early morning sun behind the subject and reflecting the sunlight back into the subject. Windy days can be a problem.
There are a lot of photogaphers here. All have their opinions of what makes a good photograph. Some like traditional portraiture, others like a more editorial look. No one is right or wrong. Photography is so subjective. But it all comes down to how you want to control your light. I'd like to see more people in here post more positive responses than things like 'your wrong' 'that can't be done' 'there is only one way' etc.
The personal attacks are so childish and contribute nothing.
Mike
Bern Caughey
Veteran Member
You've been given alot of good advice & this is a bit of a complicated subject, but only because there are so many options. This subject to fill several textbooks, but then again, so could any lighting manual. Develop some simple techniques & expand on those. Here are some other tips.
Front & or Side light:
If your going to use the direct Sun, I suggest you wait until it is no highier than about 30* up in the sky. The later in the day the easier it will be to get a handle on (Even dusk can be beautiful, but that is not direct Sun.) The lower the Sun is in the sky, the more the atmosphere will diffuse it. There is no reason not to use the Sun shinning directly on the subject frontlite. This is the light Herb Ritts became famous for, & he was far from the first. For direct front-lite Sunlight, the light is usually too high before it reaches about 30*. You could sit your subject down on the ground & shoot from above to cheat the angle so that you can start before the Sun reaches about 30*, but there is still less diffusion from the atmosphere & your subject may have a hard time not squinting. Brown eyes are generally less sensitive than blue eyes to bright lights, so every subject will handle this differently.
Back light:
You do not want the Sunlight spilling on the subjects nose, so once again the angle of the Sun is important. If you need to cheat the light, the technique is the opposite from front light. This time you want the subject highier than the camera angle. Shooting from below can be unflattering so care needs to be taken, & every person looks different. The Sun becomes a hair/back light & needs to be handled the same way. Light colored hair blows out faster than dark hair & should be treated accordingly. With any subject, I try not to let the Sun be more than about one-&-1/2 stops brightier than the the frontlight, unless I'm trying for a special look. The backgrounds brightness effects these decisions also, since this is an enviromental portrait/image. I sometimes bring the frontlight up to equal that of the backlight from the Sun in order to achieve the look I need. White or lite blonde hair will still look fine at this ratio, but dark hair usually looks better hotter.
With back light, I usually put a 12'x12', or larger, black on the ground in front of the subject to keep it from looking under-lite. You could purchase some inexpensive king-sized sheets for this purpose. This is especially important when shooting on grass or brick or any other surface that will cause a under-lit color cast.. I also do this on the beach or cement or such. It cuts down on flare induced by the back light. Good prime lenses with lens shade & without filters are much better than any zoom for these applications. Zooms have inefficeint len's shades & too many pieces of glass to compete with primes for these applications.
When I shoot back-lit, I rarely point directly into the Sun, but angle of of it. This helps control the flare.
You can use lights or relectors to control the look of the light & the dynamic range of the image. Be careful not to under light the subject when you use reflectors. I never use gold reflectors, although I will rarely use a checker-board pattern of silver & gold in order to warm the light. You do not want the fill to be warmer than the main light or your image will look odd. If your using the natural light as your main, look up at it. It is the blue sky & the color balance will be cool.
If your using lights, the further away the light is from the subject the more natural it will look. This isn't such a problem with reflectors, since your bouncing off the Sun, which is obviouslly far away. Close lighting will look artifical, but this is not a problem as long as it is part of your concept. Always remember, there are no rules, just techniques.
On another note, don't wear bright clothing, especially white, when shooting backlight, or you may cause the subject to squint, due to the Sun bouncing of of you. You can also pick up a color cast or unwanted lighting from brightier clothing your wearing.
Silks & Nets:
The closer the silk is the more effect it will have on the image. If you want a glow from a silk, keep it as close as is practical. The bigger the silk, the further away it can be to creats the glow. When a silk is farther away it acts more like a translucent gobo("go between") & the sky becomes more of the main. It all depends on what you want. Silks come in many different densities, & I prefer the thinner ones. Multiple silks & nets can be used for different looks.
Nets can be also be used to soften or cut down the light. Nets are another way too control the light without softening it too much.
Open Shade:
There are many areas of naturally occuring open shade & this is a good place to start shooting when the Sun is too high. We often build "puppet theatres" to create open shade. A "puppet theatre" is black or solid white/off-white top & usually black sides to cut ambient light from the top & sides. With this set-up. the back is open so you can still see the background. Sometimes a net is stretched behind the subject at a distance that it remains out-of focus. This acts as a ND filter, but on the background only. This is a tricky technique to employ.
Front & or Side light:
If your going to use the direct Sun, I suggest you wait until it is no highier than about 30* up in the sky. The later in the day the easier it will be to get a handle on (Even dusk can be beautiful, but that is not direct Sun.) The lower the Sun is in the sky, the more the atmosphere will diffuse it. There is no reason not to use the Sun shinning directly on the subject frontlite. This is the light Herb Ritts became famous for, & he was far from the first. For direct front-lite Sunlight, the light is usually too high before it reaches about 30*. You could sit your subject down on the ground & shoot from above to cheat the angle so that you can start before the Sun reaches about 30*, but there is still less diffusion from the atmosphere & your subject may have a hard time not squinting. Brown eyes are generally less sensitive than blue eyes to bright lights, so every subject will handle this differently.
Back light:
You do not want the Sunlight spilling on the subjects nose, so once again the angle of the Sun is important. If you need to cheat the light, the technique is the opposite from front light. This time you want the subject highier than the camera angle. Shooting from below can be unflattering so care needs to be taken, & every person looks different. The Sun becomes a hair/back light & needs to be handled the same way. Light colored hair blows out faster than dark hair & should be treated accordingly. With any subject, I try not to let the Sun be more than about one-&-1/2 stops brightier than the the frontlight, unless I'm trying for a special look. The backgrounds brightness effects these decisions also, since this is an enviromental portrait/image. I sometimes bring the frontlight up to equal that of the backlight from the Sun in order to achieve the look I need. White or lite blonde hair will still look fine at this ratio, but dark hair usually looks better hotter.
With back light, I usually put a 12'x12', or larger, black on the ground in front of the subject to keep it from looking under-lite. You could purchase some inexpensive king-sized sheets for this purpose. This is especially important when shooting on grass or brick or any other surface that will cause a under-lit color cast.. I also do this on the beach or cement or such. It cuts down on flare induced by the back light. Good prime lenses with lens shade & without filters are much better than any zoom for these applications. Zooms have inefficeint len's shades & too many pieces of glass to compete with primes for these applications.
When I shoot back-lit, I rarely point directly into the Sun, but angle of of it. This helps control the flare.
You can use lights or relectors to control the look of the light & the dynamic range of the image. Be careful not to under light the subject when you use reflectors. I never use gold reflectors, although I will rarely use a checker-board pattern of silver & gold in order to warm the light. You do not want the fill to be warmer than the main light or your image will look odd. If your using the natural light as your main, look up at it. It is the blue sky & the color balance will be cool.
If your using lights, the further away the light is from the subject the more natural it will look. This isn't such a problem with reflectors, since your bouncing off the Sun, which is obviouslly far away. Close lighting will look artifical, but this is not a problem as long as it is part of your concept. Always remember, there are no rules, just techniques.
On another note, don't wear bright clothing, especially white, when shooting backlight, or you may cause the subject to squint, due to the Sun bouncing of of you. You can also pick up a color cast or unwanted lighting from brightier clothing your wearing.
Silks & Nets:
The closer the silk is the more effect it will have on the image. If you want a glow from a silk, keep it as close as is practical. The bigger the silk, the further away it can be to creats the glow. When a silk is farther away it acts more like a translucent gobo("go between") & the sky becomes more of the main. It all depends on what you want. Silks come in many different densities, & I prefer the thinner ones. Multiple silks & nets can be used for different looks.
Nets can be also be used to soften or cut down the light. Nets are another way too control the light without softening it too much.
Open Shade:
There are many areas of naturally occuring open shade & this is a good place to start shooting when the Sun is too high. We often build "puppet theatres" to create open shade. A "puppet theatre" is black or solid white/off-white top & usually black sides to cut ambient light from the top & sides. With this set-up. the back is open so you can still see the background. Sometimes a net is stretched behind the subject at a distance that it remains out-of focus. This acts as a ND filter, but on the background only. This is a tricky technique to employ.
Bern Caughey
Veteran Member
(cont. from Part #1, since I exceeded 6000 word limit)
Additional notes:
Only use wide based & strong stands when working outdoors. If possible, tie down the frames & stands, Always use sand or shot bags. Strobe packs can be connected to light stands in place of or to supplement sand bags.
Flags are very useful to control flare.
Mirror boards are also very useful. They are also great for blasting paparrazi, but I don't know the legality of this technique. We do it all the time.
If your shooting backlight or or in open shade with a brightier background, you may need to shop-down 1/2-to-3/4 of a stop from a hand-held meter. Soft ambient light light can cause you to open up about a half stop or more from a hand-held meter. The cameras TTL meters should mostly take this into account automaticaly.
Regards,
CLTHRS
Additional notes:
Only use wide based & strong stands when working outdoors. If possible, tie down the frames & stands, Always use sand or shot bags. Strobe packs can be connected to light stands in place of or to supplement sand bags.
Flags are very useful to control flare.
Mirror boards are also very useful. They are also great for blasting paparrazi, but I don't know the legality of this technique. We do it all the time.
If your shooting backlight or or in open shade with a brightier background, you may need to shop-down 1/2-to-3/4 of a stop from a hand-held meter. Soft ambient light light can cause you to open up about a half stop or more from a hand-held meter. The cameras TTL meters should mostly take this into account automaticaly.
Regards,
CLTHRS
James Mogul
Forum Enthusiast
Hi George -
An inspiration for me is Steve Diet Goedde's work. The man is self admittedly ignorant of all things technical and flash oriented. But his understand of light is remarkable. He shoots mainly (at least under this name) in natural light with no gear but a mamiya 645 pro. He watches light and uses it as it comes to him.
Needless to say, he is not a commercial photographer.
As far as avoiding direct sunlight; this may be a recognized rule of thumb in some circles, but tell that to Helmut Newton.
Good luck!
James
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