Why I love ETTL? (samples)

...because it can ruin a shot so easily, it gives me the thrill of the russian roulette everytime i press the shutter:

Taken yesterday night in a club in Paris, in manual focus mode (hence, evaluative ETTL behavior)
Please help me understand why i get this



when i'd really prefer that



I don't understand what went wrong. Both pics were taken with the built-in flash at -1, with very dark backgrounds (source of overexposure, right?) and the guy on the right was black (another source of...). Ah, my batteries were fresh, of course... the guys were shot with the 28-135IS at 5.6 and the girls with the 15mm fisheye at 3.5, but these guys were not more than 2 metres away from me and i've got any pictures of subjects 6 or 7 metres away, shot with the built-in flash, which came out much brighter than that (it's not really difficult to expose better than this ruined one!!)

420EX owners wanted, now

i bought one, and i compared it with the built-in flash to see if i could keep my "party settings" with the 420EX on the cam. Party settings = -1 flash comp.
Well, there must be something wrong with the unit i got, look at these:



(built-in flash at -1)



(420EX at -1) (no, there's no cat, dog or newborn baby hidden in here lol)



(420EX at +2, finally the exposure is right!!)
(wow, don't ask me to shoot a white subject)

Does your unit need a +2 or +3 compensation?? Heeeeeelp!

--
http://www.at-sight.com
Sports & general event photography

Guillaume,

Out of curiosity, are you using the rear * button as FEL as originally set or did you use the custom function and move the focus lock to the rear * button?

There is have been interesting conversations about this in the past week or so and its impact on flash exposure.

Later,

Mark

--
Truly great madness cannot be achieved without significant intelligence.
Henrik Tikkanen

it gives the same results to set the lens to MF or set the * button for focus. After reading all these interesting posts about ETTL these days, i did some tests, and while * for focus must be really useful for sports (i'll try it next time i shoot sports that's for sure) i find myself embarrassed most of the time as i like to FEL for critical shots. In the clubs, I also have fun using the FEL like a handheld stroboscope. It either amuses people, or amazes them... I can already hear them thinking "damn, he's taking 2 pics per second, perfectly following the rhythm... how does he do that?"
Some even smile at my camera ))

Wasted pictures apart, ETTL works. Club pictures are probably the most difficult thing for a light meter, and so it is for any flash system, with all the moving lights, changing several times per second, fooling everything.

But, i see many pictures other guys make with little consumer cameras (no ETTL). While some are sometimes overexposed, i'm the only one to get underexposed pictures and inconsistent/unpredictable results. Maybe because in my photos, i don't want to see the people like in sunlight, but i'm looking for more of a "dim" look, closer to what it was like in the club. Such a low flash output leads to an easy light fall-off, and when it's underexposed, it means dark. Perhaps if i shot everything at 0 flash comp, an underexposed pic would mean "slightly dim yet still visible".
Why does it ruin shots for no apparent reason, i still wonder.

I find that I generally require +2/3 Falsh Compensation to achieve good results, unless my focus point falls on a 18% grey type of subject, if it does my image will now be over-exposed by 2/3 stop.

Using FEL is a real pain in the butt! (for me... I know some of you like it I hate having to FEL for each picture rather than just fire away, doing event photography by the time you have FELed the shot is long gone.

evaluative ETTL???? I have not been able to make my D60/420EX perform in anyway like evaluative. I have run heaps of tests in MF etc and all the results are just the same.

Having said that.... the EX series of flash units are compatible with non-ETTL bodies like the EOS1 (which I had). So while it performs as ETTL on a D60 it will automagically perform as TTL on the EOS1.

How does it know that it is on an ETTL body??? Can I trick it to think that it always on a TTL body even when it is on a ETTL body??? Can Canon modify the D60 firmware to give us a choice of ETTL/TTL???

I REALLY hope the later is possible. (Hello Canon!!!!

My mate runs a 540EX on his D60 and has no problems. I think he may use manual mode, which unfortunately the 420EX does not offer.... I will ask what he does and if manual mode is the answer I will get a 550 tomorrow... because (for me ETTL SUCKS!

Russell

PS... I used to have a G2 and the 420EX performs PERFECTLY on it. Direct flash or fill, I ALWAYS got spot-on exposures..... I assume that the G2 used a larger area to sample the pre-flash, rather than a tiny focus point.

Russell Stewart said:

PS... I used to have a G2 and the 420EX performs PERFECTLY on it.
Direct flash or fill, I ALWAYS got spot-on exposures..... I assume
that the G2 used a larger area to sample the pre-flash, rather than
a tiny focus point.

Click to expand...

I wonder about that also. My wife has a G2 & a 420 EX. She doesn't even know what E-TTL means, but she gets a lot more consistent exposures than I ever did with my EOS slr's until I learned & practiced E-TTL ins & outs.

-John

Yes, true pain when doing event stuff (like i do too!). In the clubs, when i forget to tell people there will be 2 flashes, they run away after the preflash. When they don't, they sometimes want to see "the first picture". LOL.

What is strange is that my test shot of the bag showed a 3 stop difference between built-in and 420EX. in the club yesterday, i never needed to go up to +2 to have the same look as i had with the tiny flash. Strange.

Maybe my 420 is flawed and emits a preflash that is too powerful, forcing the cam to make it calm down on the real burst. That would explain the exposure gap at the same settings?

You have a D60 and a 420? can you take 2 pics of the SAME scene with the built-in flash and with the 420? i need to know

About ETTL/TTL on different bodies: i've read the 1D supports TTL with older flashes that are not ETTL. The D60 does not, it just doesn't have the necessary sensors, i think.
--
http://www.at-sight.com
Sports & general event photography

JohnM31499 said:

I wonder about that also. My wife has a G2 & a 420 EX. She
doesn't even know what E-TTL means, but she gets a lot more
consistent exposures than I ever did with my EOS slr's until I
learned & practiced E-TTL ins & outs.

Click to expand...

Same with me and the Nikon 950 and C2100 (I NEVER managed to get the E10s flash to perform though and gave up and used a Vivitar on the shoe in manual mode)..

However, with yours and Jack O'Neil's advice, links etc, I had E-TTL worked out before the flash arrived and have been getting excellent results ever since, I still prefer manual mode as I can set the shutter speed to 125th and choose my aperture, look on the 550s LCD to see if the flash will be able to hack it (Glad I dodn't got for the 480EX!!) , adjust the aperture and FEL if necessary and get perfect exposures everytime unless I goof up the FEL..

I find FEL no hassle at all, the button is right where you need it. the other great thing is that I can use it on the Rebel too without any fears of wasting film - thyristors can be a bit hit and miss..

--
Olympus C2100UZI +B300, Canon D60.

My Ugly mug and submitted Photos at -------->
http://www.photosig.com/viewuser.php?id=27855

Guillaume in Paris said:

About ETTL/TTL on different bodies: i've read the 1D supports TTL
with older flashes that are not ETTL.

Click to expand...

I don't think any EOS dc supports TTL(I may be wrong)

-John

I know FEL, i DO use it, it IS helpful AND successful everytime.

But like Russell said, in event photography, most of the time you just can't FEL because the subject is moving and you're following it, or it is moving and you can't, or it's not moving but the crowd is knocking into you, or you can't look into the viewfinder because the environment is hostile and you'd end up with a viewfinder eyepiece nested in your orbit, or you have to shoot at arms length and your neck can't do the same... there are multiple examples where it's just not possible to aim and FEL at something.

When shooting people, they think the picture is taken when you FEL and they go away.

When i shoot a DJ over the turntables, most of the time there are "feedback speakers" nearby, if not walls. I can't go between the speaker and the cam, my arm is just long enough to place the cam in the right position... and so on...

For a performer, DJ, singer, whatever, 2 quick flashes are less distracting than one, then the other 2 seconds after, it's easy to figure out. Sometimes when i had to FEL i needed to do it 2 or 3 times as the subject was moving and i knew i had missed the spot. THIS must be annoying. I just don't have to be such a hassle for these artists (or even their audience).

This cutie was shot at arms length (killer black background causing overexposures half of the time)



and sometimes I avoid problems not using flash



--
http://www.at-sight.com
Sports & general event photography

Hi Guilleaume,

I take alot of club photos as I do events coverage for clubs whenever there's guest DJs or special events. You can get check out the website http://www.garagesaleshop.com events coverage to view some of my photos. Only the latest event was taken using the D60. The rest were with the Nikon 5700. Still getting used to the D60.

Using manual settings. Once you get it correct, it'll work for you the whole night through. Settings i usually use is F2.8 1/30 ISO200.

Some of the better ones were actually taken using my Nikon 5700, because of the manual flash I used with it. The 420EX has no manual settings and most of the pictures turned out to be underexposed. Set Area AF to center, focus on the darkest spot you can find on the person, lock and snap.

Kian Ming

Guillaume in Paris said:

...because it can ruin a shot so easily, it gives me the thrill of
the russian roulette everytime i press the shutter:
Taken yesterday night in a club in Paris, in manual focus mode
(hence, evaluative ETTL behavior)
Please help me understand why i get this



when i'd really prefer that



I don't understand what went wrong. Both pics were taken with the
built-in flash at -1, with very dark backgrounds (source of
overexposure, right?) and the guy on the right was black (another
source of...). Ah, my batteries were fresh, of course... the guys
were shot with the 28-135IS at 5.6 and the girls with the 15mm
fisheye at 3.5, but these guys were not more than 2 metres away
from me and i've got any pictures of subjects 6 or 7 metres away,
shot with the built-in flash, which came out much brighter than
that (it's not really difficult to expose better than this ruined
one!!)

420EX owners wanted, now
i bought one, and i compared it with the built-in flash to see if i
could keep my "party settings" with the 420EX on the cam. Party
settings = -1 flash comp.
Well, there must be something wrong with the unit i got, look at
these:



(built-in flash at -1)



(420EX at -1) (no, there's no cat, dog or newborn baby hidden in
here lol)



(420EX at +2, finally the exposure is right!!)
(wow, don't ask me to shoot a white subject)

Does your unit need a +2 or +3 compensation?? Heeeeeelp!

--
http://www.at-sight.com
Sports & general event photography

Click to expand...

I sold my 420EX a long time ago and use a cheap (US$15) auto flash.

Guillaume in Paris said:

...because it can ruin a shot so easily, it gives me the thrill of
the russian roulette everytime i press the shutter:

Click to expand...

Well I'll be stuffed!!!

After reading your post I dug through my "old fart's" ....I mean "old parts" box and found an elcheapo Achiever 115A Auto Flash. Still like brand new and in the box.... I forget why I even have it??

Anyway, I wacked it on the D60 and nothing! :-( Ok, try the PC cable... and YIPPEE it fires!! But surely it cannot do better than my AUD500 (that's Australian $) 420EX....

Well I just balsted off 20 shots of anything in the room.... dark lounge, medium toned wall, even a white box with some colour pics on it and EVERY B L O O D Y ONE of them is SPOT ON!!!!

Anybody want to by a VERY slightly used 420EX??

Russell

SB Lim said:

Guillaume in Paris said:

...because it can ruin a shot so easily, it gives me the thrill of
the russian roulette everytime i press the shutter:

Click to expand...

Click to expand...

Russell Stewart said:

Anybody want to by a VERY slightly used 420EX??

Click to expand...

Yea, I do. E-mail me if you want to sell it

-John

Hi John,

I don't think I will be giving up on it so soon ...although tonights tests have shown me that a good thyristor style flash unit needs to be added to my kit also.

There are times when the 420EX is great... like fill flash outdoors or in the studio for eg.

However, in point & shoot in situations when ambient light is not important, a good thyristor would come into it's own.

Many have suggested the Metz (54mz3 I think??) but that is way too much money. What I want is something a bit cheaper that will still provide auto and manual settings plus a tilt/swivel head and zoom??

I am off to search for one now.... if anyone can make my search easier it would be appreciated.

Russell

JohnM said:

JohnM31499 said:

Anybody want to by a VERY slightly used 420EX??

Click to expand...

Yea, I do. E-mail me if you want to sell it

-John

Click to expand...

I don't know if my last post is truncated to everybody else, but it is too me so here it is again......

Hi John,

I don't think I will be giving up on it so soon ...although
tonights tests have shown me that a good thyristor style flash unit
needs to be added to my kit also.

There are times when the 420EX is great... like fill flash outdoors
or in the studio for eg.

However, in point & shoot in situations when ambient light is not
important, a good thyristor would come into it's own.

Many have suggested the Metz (54mz3 I think??) but that is way too
much money. What I want is something a bit cheaper that will still
provide auto and manual settings plus a tilt/swivel head and zoom??

I am off to search for one now.... if anyone can make my search
easier it would be appreciated.

Russell

Russell Stewart said:

JohnM said:

Russell Stewart said:

Anybody want to by a VERY slightly used 420EX??

Click to expand...

Yea, I do. E-mail me if you want to sell it

-John

Click to expand...

Click to expand...

Sunpak 383. Don't need swivel ? Vivitar 285.

Russell Stewart said:

Many have suggested the Metz (54mz3 I think??) but that is way too
much money. What I want is something a bit cheaper that will still
provide auto and manual settings plus a tilt/swivel head and zoom??

I am off to search for one now.... if anyone can make my search
easier it would be appreciated.

Russell

Click to expand...

Russell Stewart said:

How does it know that it is on an ETTL body??? Can I trick it to
think that it always on a TTL body even when it is on a ETTL
body??? Can Canon modify the D60 firmware to give us a choice of
ETTL/TTL???
I REALLY hope the later is possible. (Hello Canon!!!!

Click to expand...

You may trick the camera or the flash in any way you want, but there is no sensor in the D60 that can give a signal to the flash to stop flashing.

In an analog camera there is a sensor that measures the light which is reflected from the film plane. Because there is no film in the D60, there's no sensor (where would you put it?). Someone wrote the 1D could do TTL, but I doubt it. When it can do TTL, I'm curious how it is done.

Marcel D.
The Netherlands
GC-S5 - 990 - G2 - D60 ( BG-ED3 - 28-135 - 70-200F4 - 550EX )
http://www.fotoexpo.tk

You aim at the darkest spot? Don't you blow out the highlights then? I would aim at the lightest spot, with the risc of an underexposed image which can be saved in PS.

ZoukLander said:

Some of the better ones were actually taken using my Nikon 5700,
because of the manual flash I used with it. The 420EX has no manual
settings and most of the pictures turned out to be underexposed.
Set Area AF to center, focus on the darkest spot you can find on
the person, lock and snap.

Click to expand...

Marcel D.
The Netherlands
GC-S5 - 990 - G2 - D60 ( BG-ED3 - 28-135 - 70-200F4 - 550EX )
http://www.fotoexpo.tk

Hi Guillaume:

Perhaps the problem is the subject matter, this shot is in fact overexposed in the centre of the photo, because of the cross the flash metered incorrectly. Just a thought.



Don.

Guillaume in Paris said:

...because it can ruin a shot so easily, it gives me the thrill of
the russian roulette everytime i press the shutter:
Taken yesterday night in a club in Paris, in manual focus mode
(hence, evaluative ETTL behavior)
Please help me understand why i get this



when i'd really prefer that



I don't understand what went wrong. Both pics were taken with the
built-in flash at -1, with very dark backgrounds (source of
overexposure, right?) and the guy on the right was black (another
source of...). Ah, my batteries were fresh, of course... the guys
were shot with the 28-135IS at 5.6 and the girls with the 15mm
fisheye at 3.5, but these guys were not more than 2 metres away
from me and i've got any pictures of subjects 6 or 7 metres away,
shot with the built-in flash, which came out much brighter than
that (it's not really difficult to expose better than this ruined
one!!)

420EX owners wanted, now
i bought one, and i compared it with the built-in flash to see if i
could keep my "party settings" with the 420EX on the cam. Party
settings = -1 flash comp.
Well, there must be something wrong with the unit i got, look at
these:



(built-in flash at -1)



(420EX at -1) (no, there's no cat, dog or newborn baby hidden in
here lol)



(420EX at +2, finally the exposure is right!!)
(wow, don't ask me to shoot a white subject)

Does your unit need a +2 or +3 compensation?? Heeeeeelp!

--
http://www.at-sight.com
Sports & general event photography

Click to expand...

Russell Stewart said:

Hi John,

I don't think I will be giving up on it so soon ...although
tonights tests have shown me that a good thyristor style flash unit
needs to be added to my kit also.

Click to expand...

I agree, there are times that an auto flash works better

Russell Stewart said:

There are times when the 420EX is great... like fill flash outdoors
or in the studio for eg.

Click to expand...

agreed

Russell Stewart said:

However, in point & shoot in situations when ambient light is not
important, a good thyristor would come into it's own.

Many have suggested the Metz (54mz3 I think??)

Click to expand...

That is what I use when E-TTL is not appropriate. The nice thing about the 54 MZ-3 is it is the only flash you can buy that gives you both E-TTL & an auto-thyrister mode(why can't Canon do this??)

There are cheaper auto only flashes(Sunpak 5000)

-John