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Geir Ove

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Hello,

Never before have I seen a camera / sensor go through this level of scrutinizing as the SD9 / Foveon has in this forum. This is good, as long as it is not pure bashing. Many interesting limitations / problems has been discovered, and this has given Foveon / Sigma a great deal of feedback :-)

However, I fail to see the same criitical eyes turned to the existing crop of Bayer sensors. Warning; This is NOT bashing: I just want to remind everyone about some of these limitations, that has NOT been the victim of the same level of scrutinizing in this forum.

Here are some of the limitations that Phil discovered in his review of the D60 (just an example)

Strange Dots in resolution chart:
http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/canoneosd60/page17.asp

False colors & False color filter
http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/canoneosd60/page15.asp

Quote: >

Notice how the "Moire Filter" changes the color of the Yelow rope.

Finally, I think highly of Canon and the D60, but in all fairness, we should use the same critical eyes when it comes to the Bayer sensors limitations as we have done to the Foveon in this forum.

Potential D60 owner

Geir Ove
 
og tak.

Laurence
Geir Ove said:
Hello,

Never before have I seen a camera / sensor go through this level of
scrutinizing as the SD9 / Foveon has in this forum. This is good,
as long as it is not pure bashing. Many interesting limitations /
problems has been discovered, and this has given Foveon / Sigma a
great deal of feedback :-)

However, I fail to see the same criitical eyes turned to the
existing crop of Bayer sensors. Warning; This is NOT bashing: I
just want to remind everyone about some of these limitations, that
has NOT been the victim of the same level of scrutinizing in this
forum.

Here are some of the limitations that Phil discovered in his review
of the D60 (just an example)

Strange Dots in resolution chart:
http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/canoneosd60/page17.asp

False colors & False color filter
http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/canoneosd60/page15.asp

Quote: >

Notice how the "Moire Filter" changes the color of the Yelow rope.

Finally, I think highly of Canon and the D60, but in all fairness,
we should use the same critical eyes when it comes to the Bayer
sensors limitations as we have done to the Foveon in this forum.

Potential D60 owner

Geir Ove
Click to expand...
 
Another Res chart from a Bayer camera, the Fuji S2:

http://img.dpreview.com/reviews/FujiS2Pro/Samples/RAW/DSCF0057_1.jpg
Geir Ove said:
Hello,

Never before have I seen a camera / sensor go through this level of
scrutinizing as the SD9 / Foveon has in this forum. This is good,
as long as it is not pure bashing. Many interesting limitations /
problems has been discovered, and this has given Foveon / Sigma a
great deal of feedback :-)

However, I fail to see the same criitical eyes turned to the
existing crop of Bayer sensors. Warning; This is NOT bashing: I
just want to remind everyone about some of these limitations, that
has NOT been the victim of the same level of scrutinizing in this
forum.

Here are some of the limitations that Phil discovered in his review
of the D60 (just an example)

Strange Dots in resolution chart:
http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/canoneosd60/page17.asp

False colors & False color filter
http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/canoneosd60/page15.asp

Quote: >

Notice how the "Moire Filter" changes the color of the Yelow rope.

Finally, I think highly of Canon and the D60, but in all fairness,
we should use the same critical eyes when it comes to the Bayer
sensors limitations as we have done to the Foveon in this forum.

Potential D60 owner

Geir Ove
Click to expand...
 
Geir Ove said:
Hello,

Never before have I seen a camera / sensor go through this level of
scrutinizing as the SD9 / Foveon has in this forum. This is good,
as long as it is not pure bashing. Many interesting limitations /
problems has been discovered, and this has given Foveon / Sigma a
great deal of feedback :-)
Click to expand...
The problem is that you seem to define finding anything wrong with the SD9 to be bashing. You then try to cut off discussion or resort to complaining about the poster.
Geir Ove said:
However, I fail to see the same criitical eyes turned to the
existing crop of Bayer sensors. Warning; This is NOT bashing: I
just want to remind everyone about some of these limitations, that
has NOT been the victim of the same level of scrutinizing in this
forum.
Click to expand...
Obviously you are ignoring the critism that goes on in the Canon SLR forum.

The forum members regularly complain about the problems with the D60 auto focus. It makes some of the other forum members mad, but it is true that the D60 has a mediocer AF system.

Further the D60 has a tendancy to loose RAW images and this is complained about.
Geir Ove said:
Here are some of the limitations that Phil discovered in his review
of the D60 (just an example)

Strange Dots in resolution chart:
http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/canoneosd60/page17.asp
Click to expand...
People have complained about these dots too in Phils test shots.
Geir Ove said:
False colors & False color filter
http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/canoneosd60/page15.asp

Quote: >

Notice how the "Moire Filter" changes the color of the Yelow rope.

Finally, I think highly of Canon and the D60, but in all fairness,
we should use the same critical eyes when it comes to the Bayer
sensors limitations as we have done to the Foveon in this forum.
Click to expand...
Nobody is saying that the Bayer cameras are perfect and the people that have critisized the X3/SD9 will readily admit that there are drawbacks to Bayer, it is just that the current X3/SD9 is far worse than the currently available DSLRs that should be compared against the SD9.

The Foveon announcement claimed a "Breakthough" in resolution and color and people have been going around saying that there is no need to buy a digital camera that is not X3. Foveon made a number of unsubstatiate claims, half-truths, and utterly false claims, hype, that got a number of technically minded people "against" them.
Geir Ove said:
Potential D60 owner
Click to expand...
It is interesting that you are thinking about a D60. My concern is not about you or any of the other X3 evangelist, my concern is for people that might get caught up in the hype and make an over $2,000 (with lenses) mistake. I would not recommend an SD9 over a D30, no less a D60 or S2 or D100 for an "general use" camera. And I would make this statement based on the X3 sensor problems alone. Then there are a whole number of practical problems with the Sigma SD9 and lense system.

If somebody knowing its limitations thinks they can work around all the problems, more power to them. I have seen way to many photographs that show that the SD9 can only be used when the light is right. Most amatuers don't get to control the light, then want a pictures under whatever the existing conditions may be.
Geir Ove said:
Geir Ove
Click to expand...
--
Karl
 
Hello,

I did not start this to fight you: Cool down.

I even saw that you said something about some of these limitations in one of your threads.

Geir Ove
Karl Guttag said:
Geir Ove said:
Hello,

Never before have I seen a camera / sensor go through this level of
scrutinizing as the SD9 / Foveon has in this forum. This is good,
as long as it is not pure bashing. Many interesting limitations /
problems has been discovered, and this has given Foveon / Sigma a
great deal of feedback :-)
Click to expand...
The problem is that you seem to define finding anything wrong with
the SD9 to be bashing. You then try to cut off discussion or
resort to complaining about the poster.
Karl Guttag said:
However, I fail to see the same criitical eyes turned to the
existing crop of Bayer sensors. Warning; This is NOT bashing: I
just want to remind everyone about some of these limitations, that
has NOT been the victim of the same level of scrutinizing in this
forum.
Click to expand...
Obviously you are ignoring the critism that goes on in the Canon
SLR forum.

The forum members regularly complain about the problems with the
D60 auto focus. It makes some of the other forum members mad, but
it is true that the D60 has a mediocer AF system.

Further the D60 has a tendancy to loose RAW images and this is
complained about.
Karl Guttag said:
Here are some of the limitations that Phil discovered in his review
of the D60 (just an example)

Strange Dots in resolution chart:
http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/canoneosd60/page17.asp
Click to expand...
People have complained about these dots too in Phils test shots.
Karl Guttag said:
False colors & False color filter
http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/canoneosd60/page15.asp

Quote: >

Notice how the "Moire Filter" changes the color of the Yelow rope.

Finally, I think highly of Canon and the D60, but in all fairness,
we should use the same critical eyes when it comes to the Bayer
sensors limitations as we have done to the Foveon in this forum.
Click to expand...
Nobody is saying that the Bayer cameras are perfect and the people
that have critisized the X3/SD9 will readily admit that there are
drawbacks to Bayer, it is just that the current X3/SD9 is far worse
than the currently available DSLRs that should be compared against
the SD9.

The Foveon announcement claimed a "Breakthough" in resolution and
color and people have been going around saying that there is no
need to buy a digital camera that is not X3. Foveon made a number
of unsubstatiate claims, half-truths, and utterly false claims,
hype, that got a number of technically minded people "against" them.
Karl Guttag said:
Potential D60 owner
Click to expand...
It is interesting that you are thinking about a D60. My concern is
not about you or any of the other X3 evangelist, my concern is for
people that might get caught up in the hype and make an over $2,000
(with lenses) mistake. I would not recommend an SD9 over a D30,
no less a D60 or S2 or D100 for an "general use" camera. And I
would make this statement based on the X3 sensor problems alone.
Then there are a whole number of practical problems with the Sigma
SD9 and lense system.

If somebody knowing its limitations thinks they can work around all
the problems, more power to them. I have seen way to many
photographs that show that the SD9 can only be used when the light
is right. Most amatuers don't get to control the light, then want
a pictures under whatever the existing conditions may be.
Karl Guttag said:
Geir Ove
Click to expand...
--
Karl
Click to expand...
 
Karl Guttag said:
Geir Ove said:
Hello,

Never before have I seen a camera / sensor go through this level of
scrutinizing as the SD9 / Foveon has in this forum. This is good,
as long as it is not pure bashing. Many interesting limitations /
problems has been discovered, and this has given Foveon / Sigma a
great deal of feedback :-)
Click to expand...
The problem is that you seem to define finding anything wrong with
the SD9 to be bashing. You then try to cut off discussion or
resort to complaining about the poster.
Karl Guttag said:
However, I fail to see the same criitical eyes turned to the
existing crop of Bayer sensors. Warning; This is NOT bashing: I
just want to remind everyone about some of these limitations, that
has NOT been the victim of the same level of scrutinizing in this
forum.
Click to expand...
Obviously you are ignoring the critism that goes on in the Canon
SLR forum.

The forum members regularly complain about the problems with the
D60 auto focus. It makes some of the other forum members mad, but
it is true that the D60 has a mediocer AF system.

Further the D60 has a tendancy to loose RAW images and this is
complained about.
Karl Guttag said:
Here are some of the limitations that Phil discovered in his review
of the D60 (just an example)

Strange Dots in resolution chart:
http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/canoneosd60/page17.asp
Click to expand...
People have complained about these dots too in Phils test shots.
Karl Guttag said:
False colors & False color filter
http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/canoneosd60/page15.asp

Quote: >

Notice how the "Moire Filter" changes the color of the Yelow rope.

Finally, I think highly of Canon and the D60, but in all fairness,
we should use the same critical eyes when it comes to the Bayer
sensors limitations as we have done to the Foveon in this forum.
Click to expand...
Nobody is saying that the Bayer cameras are perfect and the people
that have critisized the X3/SD9 will readily admit that there are
drawbacks to Bayer, it is just that the current X3/SD9 is far worse
than the currently available DSLRs that should be compared against
the SD9.

The Foveon announcement claimed a "Breakthough" in resolution and
color and people have been going around saying that there is no
need to buy a digital camera that is not X3. Foveon made a number
of unsubstatiate claims, half-truths, and utterly false claims,
hype, that got a number of technically minded people "against" them.
Karl Guttag said:
Potential D60 owner
Click to expand...
It is interesting that you are thinking about a D60. My concern is
not about you or any of the other X3 evangelist, my concern is for
people that might get caught up in the hype and make an over $2,000
(with lenses) mistake. I would not recommend an SD9 over a D30,
no less a D60 or S2 or D100 for an "general use" camera. And I
would make this statement based on the X3 sensor problems alone.
Then there are a whole number of practical problems with the Sigma
SD9 and lense system.

If somebody knowing its limitations thinks they can work around all
the problems, more power to them. I have seen way to many
photographs that show that the SD9 can only be used when the light
is right. Most amatuers don't get to control the light, then want
a pictures under whatever the existing conditions may be.
Karl Guttag said:
Geir Ove
Click to expand...
--
Karl
Click to expand...
 
zettlers said:
Hi Karl! I am interested in learning more about what you call a
whole number of practical problems with the Sigma SD9 and lens
system.
Click to expand...
These have been gone over before, but just a few of the key problems.

1) If you buy a Canon or Nikon you can use any of their respective lenses PLUS any of Sigma's or any of most of the other 3rd Party lens makers (including Tonkina and Tamron). For example I have a Sigma 17-35F2.8-F4 that I like very much to comliment my 50F1.4, 85F1.8, 28-135IS, 70-200F2.8L, and 100-400F4.5-F5.6L-IS.

2) The Sigma line up has a number of holes it in, like a low cost simple 50F1.8 prime. Their mid range primes seem to all be "macro lenses" with a max aperture of F2.8. Sigma is primarily a 3rd party lens makers and they seem to focus on the lenses that have a high cost from Canon or Nikon and someone ironically these leaves them without cheap simple lenses (as there is no money in competing on these with Nikon and Canon).

3) Some of the Sigma lenses are pretty bad. I guess this goes back to #1, where if I don't like a particular lens or the price of that lens from Canon, I can buy a similar product from someone else. For example, a lot of people are saying, based on the SD9 images, that the 20-40mm lens from Sigma has terrible chroma aberations (something is very bad about these images, either the sensor, the lens or both); if you need a 20-40mm zoom, you are stuck. I'm not saying that all of Sigma lenses are bad (heck I my 17-35 is one of my most used lenses), but with Canon (or Nikon) I have the option to pick and choose.

4) Going forward I think it is a very safe bet than Canon and Nikon are going to stay in the Digital SRL business for a long time. I would not be so sure of Sigma. While the X3 is getting them a lot of technical attention, it is very clear that the current design more flawed that the much bigger known competitors. If the SD9 sales fail to meet expectations and the X3 does not improve fast enough, Sigma will be force to make some hard choices.

Karl
zettlers #105592 said:
Regards
Zettlers
Karl Guttag said:
Then there are a whole number of practical problems with the Sigma
SD9 and lense system.
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
--
Karl
 
Karl,

If as you say in the thread below, you are a problem-solver and are interested in this technology because of your engineering background and photography (immerhin 20,000 and counting) then how 'bout putting forward some practical suggestions for solutions a la Guido? As you may have guessed, you are not getting far just by "proving" everyone else is wrong.

Futher, you might do well to understand that not everyone here is as dumb as you make us out to be. Photography, in visual terms, has to do with perception.
 
Geir Ove said:
Hello,

In this message:

http://www.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1027&message=3733469
Click to expand...
To discuss the technology is the main reason I am here. Does that mean that I am not allowed to make any other relevent comment?
Geir Ove said:
But now you also attack Sigma and their lenses!!!! :
Click to expand...
I was answering the other persons question. Futhermore, I don't see where I "attack Sigma and their lenses" but stated some FACTS that anyone considering the Sigma mount should be made aware of. Maybe you already know all this, maybe someone else does not. Not everyone knows everything about the SLR market.
Geir Ove said:
This statement has nothing to do with your "innoncent" "Analyzing"
of the Foveon sensor.....

Geir Ove
Click to expand...
--
Karl
 
Karl Guttag said:
Geir Ove said:
Hello,

In this message:

http://www.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1027&message=3733469
Click to expand...
To discuss the technology is the main reason I am here. Does that
mean that I am not allowed to make any other relevent comment?
Karl Guttag said:
But now you also attack Sigma and their lenses!!!! :
Click to expand...
I was answering the other persons question. Futhermore, I don't
see where I "attack Sigma and their lenses" but stated some FACTS
that anyone considering the Sigma mount should be made aware of.
Maybe you already know all this, maybe someone else does not. Not
everyone knows everything about the SLR market.
Karl Guttag said:
This statement has nothing to do with your "innoncent" "Analyzing"
of the Foveon sensor.....

Geir Ove
Click to expand...
--
Karl
Click to expand...
 
Karl Guttag said:
Geir Ove said:
Hello,

In this message:

http://www.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1027&message=3733469
Click to expand...
To discuss the technology is the main reason I am here. Does that
mean that I am not allowed to make any other relevent comment?
Karl Guttag said:
But now you also attack Sigma and their lenses!!!! :
Click to expand...
I was answering the other persons question. Futhermore, I don't
see where I "attack Sigma and their lenses" but stated some FACTS
that anyone considering the Sigma mount should be made aware of.
Maybe you already know all this, maybe someone else does not. Not
everyone knows everything about the SLR market.
Karl Guttag said:
This statement has nothing to do with your "innoncent" "Analyzing"
of the Foveon sensor.....

Geir Ove
Click to expand...
--
Karl
Click to expand...
 
Karl and Geir,

Back off, please. You too, please Geir.

Karl,

You were the one to coin the phrase that Geir was the Forum policeman. It was certainly not Phil.

We have been through this time and again. You know that it is your grating tone that keeps things riled up here. You have even admitted such with one of your more humorous posts about this forum being dead without your presence. That came soon after Köln.

However, with all due respect, your personal attacks and product criticism go beyond the rules on "Be Civil", "Flame / Attacks", "Trolls", and "Bashing".

I quote:

Be civil - anyone being abusive, calling names or generally trying to stir up trouble will not be tolerated. If you think someone is wrong it may be because they are new, don't jump on them, think first. If you are repeatedly abusive you will be banned from these forums.

Flame / Attacks - We do not tolerate abusive, malicious, personal attacks or self-promoting messages. See first rule.

Trolls - Anyone deliberately antagonizing other forum users by posting 'flame bait' type messages are not welcome. See first rule.

Bashing - Deliberately and repeatedly bashing the same brand, product or company will get you banned. If you have a complaint or comment to make then make it once and make sure you have facts to support it. See first rule.

If you do not believe me, which wouldn't surprise me, please read them in the area above the reply section BEFORE you slam in with your next bit.

I, for one, welcome - at last - hearing something from you about your experience with Sigma glass. After having stated so many times how bad it was and what a lousy program they have, at least in terms of product range, it is good to hear that you use one, use it often, and actually produce some usable results, if the shots you took at Disney World are any guide.

Now it would be nice to hear something constructive about this technology. After all, we are here to learn from each other and, indirectly, help move this technology forward in our own small way.

With all due respect,

Laurence
 
Geir Ove said:
Never before have I seen a camera / sensor go through this level of
scrutinizing as the SD9 / Foveon has in this forum.
Click to expand...
You obviously don't remember the D60/D100 wars very well. Not to mention S2 and SuperCCD in general (e.g. the last sensor design that was going to make all others obsolete.) It happens every time when there is a new camera and many samples posted before all of the reviews are done. It will happen again for the 1Ds and 14n as well. (And F7x7/D7x/5700/E20 etc, etc.)
Geir Ove said:
This is NOT bashing
[...]
Strange Dots in resolution chart:
http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/canoneosd60/page17.asp
Click to expand...
Well, when you omit the following quote: "I looked long and hard through our few thousand D60 photos and couldn't find a good example of this occurring in a 'real life' shot" it sounds awfully close to bashing ;-)
Geir Ove said:
Finally, I think highly of Canon and the D60, but in all fairness,
we should use the same critical eyes when it comes to the Bayer
sensors limitations as we have done to the Foveon in this forum.
Click to expand...
But I think we have. Phil certainly pointed out any issues that he came across. The real issue is that the SD-9 is the new kid on the block. Of course, he is going to be picked on more. Particularly given all of the pre-release build-up of expectations. Hopefully, when the next novel new sensor is released (14n?), the SD-9 pressure will die down.

--
Erik
 
Erik Magnuson said:
Geir Ove said:
Never before have I seen a camera / sensor go through this level of
scrutinizing as the SD9 / Foveon has in this forum.
Click to expand...
You obviously don't remember the D60/D100 wars very well. Not to
mention S2 and SuperCCD in general (e.g. the last sensor design
that was going to make all others obsolete.) It happens every time
when there is a new camera and many samples posted before all of
the reviews are done. It will happen again for the 1Ds and 14n as
well. (And F7x7/D7x/5700/E20 etc, etc.)
Member said:
This is NOT bashing
[...]
Strange Dots in resolution chart:
http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/canoneosd60/page17.asp
Click to expand...
Well, when you omit the following quote: "I looked long and hard
through our few thousand D60 photos and couldn't find a good
example of this occurring in a 'real life' shot" it sounds awfully
close to bashing ;-)
Member said:
Finally, I think highly of Canon and the D60, but in all fairness,
we should use the same critical eyes when it comes to the Bayer
sensors limitations as we have done to the Foveon in this forum.
Click to expand...
But I think we have. Phil certainly pointed out any issues that he
came across. The real issue is that the SD-9 is the new kid on the
block. Of course, he is going to be picked on more. Particularly
given all of the pre-release build-up of expectations. Hopefully,
when the next novel new sensor is released (14n?), the SD-9
pressure will die down.

--
Erik
Click to expand...
 
Geir, I think you really ought to check your blood pressure while participating in this forum, you can't be doing your health any good.
Geir Ove said:
Geir Ove said:
Geir Ove said:
Never before have I seen a camera / sensor go through this level of
scrutinizing as the SD9 / Foveon has in this forum.
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
And for the record this in english grammer does not mean, you haven't seen other sensors scrutinized this much in this forum, it means you haven't seen them scrutinzied anywhere to the level the foveon has been ( in this forum).

Of course each camera will see more scrutiny in its own forum. Do you expect people to come here and pick apart the SuperCCD?

As Erik was pointing out this happens in all the forums. I would say the Fuji "SuperCCD" has faced a lot of this in the Fuji forum. I know because I did a lot of it. :-)

I would really like to have technology forum, or technology debate forum, so we might perhaps move these discussions to more neutral ground.

Peter
 
Peter G said:
Peter G said:
Peter G said:
Peter G said:
Never before have I seen a camera / sensor go through this level of
scrutinizing as the SD9 / Foveon has in this forum.
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
And for the record this in english grammer does not mean, you
haven't seen other sensors scrutinized this much in this forum, it
means you haven't seen them scrutinzied anywhere to the level the
foveon has been ( in this forum).

Of course each camera will see more scrutiny in its own forum. Do
you expect people to come here and pick apart the SuperCCD?

As Erik was pointing out this happens in all the forums. I would
say the Fuji "SuperCCD" has faced a lot of this in the Fuji forum.
I know because I did a lot of it. :-)

I would really like to have technology forum, or technology debate
forum, so we might perhaps move these discussions to more neutral
ground.

Peter
Click to expand...
Very nicely said Peter,

That is a great idea indeed. What that would do is put all of you fellows in

an area where you could exchance ideas and opinions on your own level and fellows like myself could go about the business of learning more about the SD9 on a different level.

I think all of this has done a disservice to a lot of us on this fourm (although
I must say, I've learned something technically here also) Thanks for that.

I fear a lot of people have been driven from these fourms because of some of these mean exchanges.

Oh well

--
Regards,
Gavin
Canon Pro90IS, B-300 Canon Pro 70
 
You would do well to learn the difference between an attack and the posting of fact. Please reply and paste in the parts of Karl's response to zettlers question that are incorrect and could be considered an attack on Sigma and their lenses. I read it three times and could not find a single sentence that would qualify.
Geir Ove said:
In this message:

http://www.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1027&message=3733469

You said:

But now you also attack Sigma and their lenses!!!! :

This statement has nothing to do with your "innoncent" "Analyzing"
of the Foveon sensor.....

Geir Ove
Click to expand...
--
John
 
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