5D2 AF complaints - I don't get it?

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So I've been working with my 5D2 for a while now. Coming from Nikon I was a bit worried about the AF issue/slow bps people talk about but my main work is wedding so it didn't bother me that much.

Yesterday I was shooting a local ski-competition and the 5D had no problems at all. Most pictures came out sharp and useful (and those skiers are pretty darn fast). I've also challenged the camera in low light and the AF seems to be working just fine. Not as good as the D700 in low light but still useful indeed.

So...I don't get it. When people complain, which situations/light are they actually referring to?
 
My guess, you've been using the center AF-point? That one works fine, no complaints, but wait till you need the outer points. They are rubbish. So it depends on your shooting style...

I own a 5DmkII and a 1DmkIII, the center points are comparable but the 5D outer points are a disgrace for such a fine camera.
 
My guess, you've been using the center AF-point? That one works fine, no complaints, but wait till you need the outer points. They are rubbish. So it depends on your shooting style...

I own a 5DmkII and a 1DmkIII, the center points are comparable but the 5D outer points are a disgrace for such a fine camera.
True, I rarely use the outer points - in fact almost never...
 
The problem is the outer points, they're not accurate even in good light. If you're shooting with a fast lens, say a 50 f/1.4 you need accurate focus as your DOF is so shallow. You can't focus and recompose with close subjects as the distance will change so you need outer points which are half decent.
My guess, you've been using the center AF-point? That one works fine, no complaints, but wait till you need the outer points. They are rubbish. So it depends on your shooting style...

I own a 5DmkII and a 1DmkIII, the center points are comparable but the 5D outer points are a disgrace for such a fine camera.
True, I rarely use the outer points - in fact almost never...
 
The problem is the outer points, they're not accurate even in good light. If you're shooting with a fast lens, say a 50 f/1.4 you need accurate focus as your DOF is so shallow. You can't focus and recompose with close subjects as the distance will change so you need outer points which are half decent.
My guess, you've been using the center AF-point? That one works fine, no complaints, but wait till you need the outer points. They are rubbish. So it depends on your shooting style...

I own a 5DmkII and a 1DmkIII, the center points are comparable but the 5D outer points are a disgrace for such a fine camera.
True, I rarely use the outer points - in fact almost never...
Good point. I was planning to get another 5D2 as backup but I might be better off with a 1DIII when/if I need acccurate outer points? Even though I admit that I almost never used them on my D700:s. I think that AF system was overkill for my style...
 
The problem is the outer points, they're not accurate even in good light. If you're shooting with a fast lens, say a 50 f/1.4 you need accurate focus as your DOF is so shallow. You can't focus and recompose with close subjects as the distance will change so you need outer points which are half decent.
I have no problem with the accuracy of the outer points and as far as the comment regarding the 50/1.4 that lens (or some variant of it) has been around almost forever -- how did people do photography before we had 9, 11, 39, 41, 51 AF points etc.

There was quite a bit of discussion here on DPR a year or so ago when some lady wedding photographer made similar comments about the 5DII AF and moving to Nikon because the D700 was vastly superior etc. Then we see that PBS special about the president’s photographer who appears to use the 5DII exclusively. I cannot imagine a more demanding environment than that.

This is mostly a case of the poor craftsmen blaming their tools.
My guess, you've been using the center AF-point? That one works fine, no complaints, but wait till you need the outer points. They are rubbish. So it depends on your shooting style...

I own a 5DmkII and a 1DmkIII, the center points are comparable but the 5D outer points are a disgrace for such a fine camera.
True, I rarely use the outer points - in fact almost never...
--
Flickr: http://www.flickr.com/photos/26158506@N07/
 
Yesterday I was shooting a local ski-competition and the 5D had no problems at all. Most pictures came out sharp and useful (and those skiers are pretty darn fast).
What lenses were you using. If you shoot wide angle or at f8 you'll never discover how slow the AF is.
 
Yesterday I was shooting a local ski-competition and the 5D had no problems at all. Most pictures came out sharp and useful (and those skiers are pretty darn fast).
What lenses were you using. If you shoot wide angle or at f8 you'll never discover how slow the AF is.
70-200 @2.8 and 16-35. Mostly 70-200 though....
 
Not quite true. This is not a case of poor craftsmen blaming their tools. 5DII outer points are some how useless but the center point is very good.

My 5DII center AF is as good as my 1DIII, 1DIIn and 7D if not better except the outer points. The outer points can work in good light but I have learned to leave it alone. For my wedding work that's fine by me.
The problem is the outer points, they're not accurate even in good light. If you're shooting with a fast lens, say a 50 f/1.4 you need accurate focus as your DOF is so shallow. You can't focus and recompose with close subjects as the distance will change so you need outer points which are half decent.
I have no problem with the accuracy of the outer points and as far as the comment regarding the 50/1.4 that lens (or some variant of it) has been around almost forever -- how did people do photography before we had 9, 11, 39, 41, 51 AF points etc.

There was quite a bit of discussion here on DPR a year or so ago when some lady wedding photographer made similar comments about the 5DII AF and moving to Nikon because the D700 was vastly superior etc. Then we see that PBS special about the president’s photographer who appears to use the 5DII exclusively. I cannot imagine a more demanding environment than that.

This is mostly a case of the poor craftsmen blaming their tools.
My guess, you've been using the center AF-point? That one works fine, no complaints, but wait till you need the outer points. They are rubbish. So it depends on your shooting style...

I own a 5DmkII and a 1DmkIII, the center points are comparable but the 5D outer points are a disgrace for such a fine camera.
True, I rarely use the outer points - in fact almost never...
--
Flickr: http://www.flickr.com/photos/26158506@N07/
 
Not quite true. This is not a case of poor craftsmen blaming their tools. 5DII outer points are some how useless but the center point is very good.

My 5DII center AF is as good as my 1DIII, 1DIIn and 7D if not better except the outer points. The outer points can work in good light but I have learned to leave it alone. For my wedding work that's fine by me.
I don't find them that bad but I am generaly a CP guy having been around when there only was a CP to use.
The problem is the outer points, they're not accurate even in good light. If you're shooting with a fast lens, say a 50 f/1.4 you need accurate focus as your DOF is so shallow. You can't focus and recompose with close subjects as the distance will change so you need outer points which are half decent.
I have no problem with the accuracy of the outer points and as far as the comment regarding the 50/1.4 that lens (or some variant of it) has been around almost forever -- how did people do photography before we had 9, 11, 39, 41, 51 AF points etc.

There was quite a bit of discussion here on DPR a year or so ago when some lady wedding photographer made similar comments about the 5DII AF and moving to Nikon because the D700 was vastly superior etc. Then we see that PBS special about the president’s photographer who appears to use the 5DII exclusively. I cannot imagine a more demanding environment than that.

This is mostly a case of the poor craftsmen blaming their tools.
My guess, you've been using the center AF-point? That one works fine, no complaints, but wait till you need the outer points. They are rubbish. So it depends on your shooting style...

I own a 5DmkII and a 1DmkIII, the center points are comparable but the 5D outer points are a disgrace for such a fine camera.
True, I rarely use the outer points - in fact almost never...
--
Flickr: http://www.flickr.com/photos/26158506@N07/
--
Flickr: http://www.flickr.com/photos/26158506@N07/
 
My theory is that the reasons for the complaints include:
  1. Misunderstanding of what is normal. Some folks seem to think that if you have a "good" AF system that you can just point the camera in the general direction of the subject and 100% of your shots should turn out razor sharp. Sorry...
  2. Technique issues. This is often related to the first observation, in that it matters a lot how you shoot in challenging focus situations - which AF mode you use, which AF points you select, how you position the subject in the frame, etc. Some subjects require a great deal of practice. For example, the first time I seriously tried shooting BIF with a long lens it was a disaster. A few hours of practice and things started to improve a lot.
  3. Unrealistic expectations for sharpness. Also perhaps related to the above, some look at 100% crops of hand held shots of moving subjects and notice that focus is slightly less than absolute perfection and blame the camera... when the shot would actually be a fine photograph at normal sizes.
  4. Expecting that the 5D2 will be equal to cameras whose AF systems are designed for more challenging circumstances. I can shoot BIF and sports with a 5D2 and get good results, but I also have to pay careful attention to some things that might be a bit easier with a 1D series.
Dan
So I've been working with my 5D2 for a while now. Coming from Nikon I was a bit worried about the AF issue/slow bps people talk about but my main work is wedding so it didn't bother me that much.

Yesterday I was shooting a local ski-competition and the 5D had no problems at all. Most pictures came out sharp and useful (and those skiers are pretty darn fast). I've also challenged the camera in low light and the AF seems to be working just fine. Not as good as the D700 in low light but still useful indeed.

So...I don't get it. When people complain, which situations/light are they actually referring to?
--
---
G Dan Mitchell - SF Bay Area, California, USA
Blog & Gallery: http://www.gdanmitchell.com/
Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/gdanmitchellphotography
Flickr: http://www.flickr.com/photos/gdanmitchell/
Twitter: http://twitter.com/gdanmitchell
IM: gdanmitchell

Gear List: Cup, spoon, chewing gum, old shoe laces, spare change, eyeballs, bag of nuts.
 
So...I don't get it. When people complain, which situations/light are they actually referring to?
As others have replied, it is mainly the poor performance of the outer points that people complain about, but there is more to it than just that: the centre point is only better than the outer points in terms of its performance with vertical structure (eg. lines) - its AF performance with horizontal detail is just as bad as the outer points. It is the vast difference in the focus precision with vertical detail over horizontal detail that makes the centre AF point acceptable at all.

When Canon refer to the centre AF point on the 5D/5DII being a "cross type" they mean a "+" cross rather than an "X" cross (as they have in the 7D, for example). To understand the difference you have to realise that the AF sensors are really just linear sensors, sensitive to edge detail crossing the length of the sensor. If the edges are at an angle to the sensor then the AF is only sensitive to the component of the detail along its length - ie. the cosine of the angle between the detail and the AF axis. In other words, the sensitivity of the AF is maximum with lines parallel to the AF axis (at 90deg to the linear sensor), and reduces as the angle between the lines and the AF axis increases, eventually falling to zero sensitivity when the lines are perpendicular to the AF axis.

That probably reads as overly complex, but it is easier to understand and demonstrate with the camera itself. Just select any of the single axis AF sensors, ie. the outer sensors, noting that each of the outer AF points is shown as a small rectangle in the viewfinder, not a square. Point the sensor at a scene with only a sharp black/white edge, such as a the edge of a white sheet of paper on a black background crossing the AF sensor. When the black/white edge is parallel to the short edge of the AF marker, the camera focusses with maximum accuracy and this falls off as the edge rotates relative to the sensor. When the edge is parallel to the long edge of the AF marker the camera cannot focus at all - the AF sensor has no sensitivity along that axis at all. Focus sensitivity is the cosine of the angle between the edge and the AF axis, maximum at zero, minimum at 90deg.

Obviously, with a cross-type sensor you never get into the situation where the AF sensor has no sensitivity to image detail. As the lines of detail approach angles with minimum sensitivity in one axis of the cross they also reach maximum sensitivity with the other axis of the cross. This makes the centre point on the 5D/5DII AF much more robust and reliable than the outer points but, again, there is more to its performance benefits than just reliability. It can also be more precise, especially with fast glass.

The central AF sensor is actually 3 AF sensors in one: one for each axis of the "+" cross, but also a third, high precision, AF sensor aligned with the "-" axis of the cross and sensitive only to vertical edges. This third AF component of the cross-type sensor becomes active with lenses which have an aperture of f/2.8 or faster. So only two AF sensors work at any one time. If the lens is slower than f/2.8 then both axes of the cross-type sensor work in low precision mode; with lenses faster than f/2.8 a high precision sensor sensitive to vertical detail kicks in, although sensitivity to horizontal detail remains at standard precision. The difference between these two is very significant and further enhances the performance of the central AF point over the outer points.

On one of their Lenswork publications, which I don't have at my fingertips at the moment, Canon claim the precision of their standard AF sensor is equal or better than the DoF, whilst their hight precision AF sensor is equal or better than one third of the DoF. On the face of it, that looks like the high precision AF sensor is 3x better than standard AF. However, this is the performance of the sensor at the working aperture of the AF itself. The standard AF sensors work at f/5.6 (this being the separation of the outer edges of sensitivity of the two optical ports that the AF "sees" through the lens), whilst the high precision AF sensor works at f/2.8. The depth of focus at f/2.8 is half the depth of focus at f/5.6, so the high precision AF sensor is actually 6x more precise than the standard AF sensors - and that is where the real benefit of the centre point comes in.

Consequently, if you are shooting at f/1.4, where the depth of focus is a quarter of that at f/5.6, the outer AF sensors can only get within 4x the depth of field - almost useless. However the depth of focus at f/1.4 is half that of the f/2.8 aperture of the high precision central AF sensor, so that can still achieve focus within 2/3 of the depth of field - 6x better and a critical advantage.

These comparisons are, of course, under optimal conditions with the edges of the detail perpendicular to the AF sensor. However the difference is so significant that even with detail which isn't perfectly aligned with the AF axes, the high precision sensor still dominates the performance of the central AF sensor in the 5D/5DII system. When only the standard precision sensors function the crossover between the vertical and horizontal axes occurs around 45 deg, where the precision of the AF has reduced to 70% of the optimum performance. When the high precision vertical sensor functions and the crossover between the two AF sensors occurs around 80 deg, so performance never falls below 98% of optimum for the standard AF sensor.

So the difference between the central AF and the outer points on the 5D/5DII is significant, not just in precision, but in reliability. Quite often, the outer points will hunt and fail to focus completely whilst under the same conditions the central AF point will work and still give better AF accuracy, especially with fast glass.
--
Its RKM
 
for moving parts its just too slow snapping focus reliably. you might get focus here and there. but you cant rely on it. so you cant use 5d for professional paid work.
no case for "misunderstandings"...
  1. Misunderstanding of what is normal. Some folks seem to think that if you have a "good" AF system that you can just point the camera in the general direction of the subject and 100% of your shots should turn out razor sharp. Sorry...
  2. Technique issues. This is often related to the first observation, in that it matters a lot how you shoot in challenging focus situations - which AF mode you use, which AF points you select, how you position the subject in the frame, etc. Some subjects require a great deal of practice. For example, the first time I seriously tried shooting BIF with a long lens it was a disaster. A few hours of practice and things started to improve a lot.
  3. Unrealistic expectations for sharpness. Also perhaps related to the above, some look at 100% crops of hand held shots of moving subjects and notice that focus is slightly less than absolute perfection and blame the camera... when the shot would actually be a fine photograph at normal sizes.
  4. Expecting that the 5D2 will be equal to cameras whose AF systems are designed for more challenging circumstances. I can shoot BIF and sports with a 5D2 and get good results, but I also have to pay careful attention to some things that might be a bit easier with a 1D series.
Dan
So I've been working with my 5D2 for a while now. Coming from Nikon I was a bit worried about the AF issue/slow bps people talk about but my main work is wedding so it didn't bother me that much.

Yesterday I was shooting a local ski-competition and the 5D had no problems at all. Most pictures came out sharp and useful (and those skiers are pretty darn fast). I've also challenged the camera in low light and the AF seems to be working just fine. Not as good as the D700 in low light but still useful indeed.

So...I don't get it. When people complain, which situations/light are they actually referring to?
--
---
G Dan Mitchell - SF Bay Area, California, USA
Blog & Gallery: http://www.gdanmitchell.com/
Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/gdanmitchellphotography
Flickr: http://www.flickr.com/photos/gdanmitchell/
Twitter: http://twitter.com/gdanmitchell
IM: gdanmitchell

Gear List: Cup, spoon, chewing gum, old shoe laces, spare change, eyeballs, bag of nuts.
 
no text
 
@it's RKM

Thanks for that. VERY interesting information
 
for moving parts its just too slow snapping focus reliably. you might get focus here and there. but you cant rely on it. so you cant use 5d for professional paid work.
no case for "misunderstandings"...
Hear hear...still, I got MANY keepers at the ski competition. Late afternoon and heavy snowing so it was an AF challenge. Anyway...my main work is wedding so fast AF for moving subject is not my primary target
 
I recently switched over from 4/3's (I am still using Micro 4/3's) and I've noticed that I used to get way more keepers with my Olympus E-3 than I do with my Canon 5DII. Here's what I think it comes down to for me.

1. The Olympus E-3 focus system was simply better than the 5DII. The E-3 had 11 AF points, all cross type.

2. The DOF was not as shallow. Shooting at f2.8 on my E-3 gave me a fast shutter speed but, because of the approx. half sized sensor, DOF comparable to f5.6 on the 5DII. Less chance of camera shake and less chance of the main subject not being sharp do to the shallow DOF making something slightly off focus look more off focus.

3. Because of the smaller 4/3's perspective, the focus points were more evenly spaced out around the screen which made for easier focus and recomposition of subjects off to the side of the frame.

4. The in body image stabilization was far better then the in lens stabilization Canon has. Plus, ALL my Olympus lenses were stabilized to 5 stops. As far as I know the closest Canon comes is 4 stops with the 100mm L's hybrid IS system. I think some of my 5DII issues may be connected to my shooting style which has become too laid back and as a result of being used to the camera compensating for me.

5. Canon lenses aren't all that great. The so called L lenses are pretty average compared with the High Grade and Super High Grade Olympus Zuiko offerings I had been accustomed to. As for other non L lenses, it seems hit an miss. Then there is Canon's quality control. There are way too many dodgy lenses in circulation. I recently came across one when I picked up the 85mm f1.8. I thought the problem was me, but I took it back to the store, they tested it out, and the confirmed there was a focus problem. They refunded my money.

I enjoyed the Olympus cameras I owned and would have continued using them if Olympus had shown more support for the format rather than hinting that they intended to let it slip away in favor of micro four thirds.

The 5DII, for everything it lacks, has it's own advantages (shallow DOF, resolution, high iso noise advantage etc.) that keeps me from giving up on it in frustration. It's just a matter of figuring out it's quirks and working around them plus finding the right camera lens combo for my style/needs.

--

Canon 5D Mark II, 24-105mm L, 70-200mm f/4L IS, EF 50mm f1.4, Tokina 16-28mm f2.8.
Olympus E-PL1, 9-18mm, 17mm, & FL-36R.
Canon PowerShot TX1
Ricoh GR-D
Sony DSC-V3
 
Have you tried the outer AF points on the 5D2 or use its AI servo mode? and compare it to the D700, D3, D300s or 1D series in the similar condition, or even the 7D? try it then you will get it. Oh, I do own a 5D2 myself, so it's not just from reading from internet, but I mainly use the 5D2 as a manual focus camera, pair it with my Samyang 14, Zeiss 21mm, Zeiss 35mm, Zeiss 100, and TSE17 & TSE 24 II for landscape stuffs, but for everything else, I don't normally touch that camera, I much prefer my D3, 1DS2, and even my 6 year old 1D2, especially for anything that moves.
 

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