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My 40D seems sharper than my 7D...

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TheHorsts

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I'm disappointed to be writing this, but it seems like my 40D seems sharper than my 7D when compared with identical sized images.

Is this possible? (I guess clearly it is.)

I took set of RAW photos of using an identical lens (70-200/4 IS), scaled images to an identical size. When viewed on my 24" monitor, I and all my family consistently picked the 40D images as being "sharper". Although I knew which images came from which camera, it was blind test for my the rest of the family. It's not a "night and day" difference, but it the choices were consistent.

They were telephoto shots of dead trees about 100 meters away with an f-stop of 9, so all parts of the trees should be well within the depth of field.

I have a week to decide whether to keep the 7D. And it seems unlikely that this something that is fixed by having the 7D serviced.

Any ideas was to what is going on?

I've owned a ton of Canon cameras -- film and digital -- and this is the first one that wasn't immediately obvious that the images were better than what I had.
 
Post the images here, and give complete details of settings, including RAW conversion settings. Sometimes different cameras require different settings to get the best out of them.
--
Alastair
http://anorcross.smugmug.com
Equipment in profile

 
How was the focus achieved? Using phase AF or contrast AF in liveview? If phase AF you most likely have an AF calibration issue to resolve which is pretty simple. The 40D is not sharper than the 7D when proper focus is achieved and all RAW parameters are equal.

7D top left, 40D top right, 50D bottom. ISO 100 RAW, tripod using remote release, liveview view contrast AF for 7D and 50D, manual focus for 40D. All with Canon 50f1.4 at f5.6. RAW files converted in DPP with all sliders for sharpening and NR to zero.

In this presentation the files are not equalized for size but you can still see there is no sharpness advantage for the 40D.

Bob



--
http://www.pbase.com/rwbaron
 
The question about how focus was achieved is a good one, live view x10 manual focus should eliminate this variable from the 7d, if the images are still not as crisp at 100%, then you may have your answer.

Another issue is with scaling the images, the resize algorithm being used may be messing up your results. For instance a bilinear interpolation will actually soften your results, but runs fast (in hardware on the GPU if you want), but a bicubic sharpen would sharpen up the 7d images.

I went from XTi to 7D, and the XTi is 10mpix, and the 7D is 18, more samples per inch on the sensor means the same camera shake means the circle of confusion covers more pixels, which is a problem with pixel peep comparisons, so use a steady tripod and the timer or remote release for testing to help minimize this variable.

Do you print a lot? 7D having more data is likely to produce better prints, but if you only ever view your photos on a monitor and are tied to the resize that you use, then maybe your 40D is right for you....
 
1. Not sure what lens you used, but, run it through an MA assessment with one of the methods available from google. I used the one of maximum interference pattern.

2. Once you are sure that your lens is mated to the body with maximum sharpness....

3. Shoot in sRaw1 with the 7D and compare the results to the 10D.

4. Compare both with DPP 3.9.3 with the same settings.
 
I'll see how to upload the images later today...

To answer some of the questions in this thread:
  • No "Live" Contrast-based focusing -- only standard, one shot focusing (the 40D was actually set at AI-Servo for a couple shots, but even those looked sharper)
  • No special RAW conversion settings that I'm aware of -- both just loaded into Lightroom 3 and viewed; guess I should check if Lightroom sets 40D and 7D conversion different for some reason
  • Lens = 70-200/F4L IS (as was mentioned in the original post) -- picked it since it is one of my sharpest lenses. Was @ 135 mm with f9.
  • Although I didn't mention this earlier -- I shot both 100 ISO (200 ISO was the lowest on my 40D) and 1600 ISO. Family preferred the 40D at both ISO.
I really want the 7D. That's why I was so disappointed in the apparent results so far. I would benefit from the better focusing system for the sports photography that I do and I was really wanting to add HD video into the mix.

Thanks.
 
Make sure framing is the same for both the 40d and 7d. Turn all sharpness to zero in LR3 on both. Zoom in on both side by side at the same level of framing. Then print screen and post some pics of the comparison.

Then we'll maybe be able to help
TheHorsts said:
I'll see how to upload the images later today...

To answer some of the questions in this thread:
  • No "Live" Contrast-based focusing -- only standard, one shot focusing (the 40D was actually set at AI-Servo for a couple shots, but even those looked sharper)
  • No special RAW conversion settings that I'm aware of -- both just loaded into Lightroom 3 and viewed; guess I should check if Lightroom sets 40D and 7D conversion different for some reason
  • Lens = 70-200/F4L IS (as was mentioned in the original post) -- picked it since it is one of my sharpest lenses. Was @ 135 mm with f9.
  • Although I didn't mention this earlier -- I shot both 100 ISO (200 ISO was the lowest on my 40D) and 1600 ISO. Family preferred the 40D at both ISO.
I really want the 7D. That's why I was so disappointed in the apparent results so far. I would benefit from the better focusing system for the sports photography that I do and I was really wanting to add HD video into the mix.

Thanks.
Click to expand...
 
TheHorsts said:
I'm disappointed to be writing this, but it seems like my 40D seems sharper than my 7D when compared with identical sized images.

Is this possible? (I guess clearly it is.)

I took set of RAW photos of using an identical lens (70-200/4 IS), scaled images to an identical size.
Click to expand...
You mean - you resized them with software? Why? Just display them full screen with a quality viewer.
 
Were you using Center Point focusing on the 7D or the default All Points? Makes a huge difference depending on what you're focusing on. Were you looking at 100% on the screen after the resizing? I have both cameras as well, and the 7D is sharper (also taking into account that it has twice the pixels) than the 40D. As someone else mentioned, you may need to make an Micro Adjustment with that lens on the 7D.
TheHorsts said:
I'll see how to upload the images later today...

To answer some of the questions in this thread:
  • No "Live" Contrast-based focusing -- only standard, one shot focusing (the 40D was actually set at AI-Servo for a couple shots, but even those looked sharper)
  • No special RAW conversion settings that I'm aware of -- both just loaded into Lightroom 3 and viewed; guess I should check if Lightroom sets 40D and 7D conversion different for some reason
  • Lens = 70-200/F4L IS (as was mentioned in the original post) -- picked it since it is one of my sharpest lenses. Was @ 135 mm with f9.
  • Although I didn't mention this earlier -- I shot both 100 ISO (200 ISO was the lowest on my 40D) and 1600 ISO. Family preferred the 40D at both ISO.
I really want the 7D. That's why I was so disappointed in the apparent results so far. I would benefit from the better focusing system for the sports photography that I do and I was really wanting to add HD video into the mix.

Thanks.
Click to expand...
--
Jay S.
Fuji 7000 / Canon 20D / Canon 40D / Canon 7D
http://jaysott.smugmug.com
 
before resizing -- -- if you look at 100% on screen of each the 7d will look softer because you are magnifying further on the 7d

you need to keep the framing on both at the image level the same as you view both
Jay S. said:
Were you using Center Point focusing on the 7D or the default All Points? Makes a huge difference depending on what you're focusing on. Were you looking at 100% on the screen after the resizing? I have both cameras as well, and the 7D is sharper (also taking into account that it has twice the pixels) than the 40D. As someone else mentioned, you may need to make an Micro Adjustment with that lens on the 7D.
TheHorsts said:
I'll see how to upload the images later today...

To answer some of the questions in this thread:
  • No "Live" Contrast-based focusing -- only standard, one shot focusing (the 40D was actually set at AI-Servo for a couple shots, but even those looked sharper)
  • No special RAW conversion settings that I'm aware of -- both just loaded into Lightroom 3 and viewed; guess I should check if Lightroom sets 40D and 7D conversion different for some reason
  • Lens = 70-200/F4L IS (as was mentioned in the original post) -- picked it since it is one of my sharpest lenses. Was @ 135 mm with f9.
  • Although I didn't mention this earlier -- I shot both 100 ISO (200 ISO was the lowest on my 40D) and 1600 ISO. Family preferred the 40D at both ISO.
I really want the 7D. That's why I was so disappointed in the apparent results so far. I would benefit from the better focusing system for the sports photography that I do and I was really wanting to add HD video into the mix.

Thanks.
Click to expand...
--
Jay S.
Fuji 7000 / Canon 20D / Canon 40D / Canon 7D
http://jaysott.smugmug.com
Click to expand...
 
Peter 13 said:
TheHorsts said:
I'm disappointed to be writing this, but it seems like my 40D seems sharper than my 7D when compared with identical sized images.

Is this possible? (I guess clearly it is.)

I took set of RAW photos of using an identical lens (70-200/4 IS), scaled images to an identical size.
Click to expand...
You mean - you resized them with software? Why? Just display them full screen with a quality viewer.
Click to expand...
Seriously, Peter 13 makes a very good point. What is the reasoning behind resizing 18MP to 10.1MP and comparing them? Would you also resize to 5MP and compare the 7D to the iPhone?

18MP contains more small scale detail then 10.1MP, especially when compared at full screen.

Furthermore, why the assumption that newer cameras are supposed to have sharper files? The 7D has significant advantages over the 40D in other areas that help in 'getting the shot'.

In other words, just enjoy your camera. Threads like these repeat almost every 40 mins.
 
maybe you did poor scaling and maybe yuo didnt do post scaling sharpening pass

f/9 is not necessarily by any means going to get everything with crisp focus at once even for somewhat far off trees at 200mm
TheHorsts said:
I'm disappointed to be writing this, but it seems like my 40D seems sharper than my 7D when compared with identical sized images.

Is this possible? (I guess clearly it is.)

I took set of RAW photos of using an identical lens (70-200/4 IS), scaled images to an identical size. When viewed on my 24" monitor, I and all my family consistently picked the 40D images as being "sharper". Although I knew which images came from which camera, it was blind test for my the rest of the family. It's not a "night and day" difference, but it the choices were consistent.

They were telephoto shots of dead trees about 100 meters away with an f-stop of 9, so all parts of the trees should be well within the depth of field.

I have a week to decide whether to keep the 7D. And it seems unlikely that this something that is fixed by having the 7D serviced.

Any ideas was to what is going on?

I've owned a ton of Canon cameras -- film and digital -- and this is the first one that wasn't immediately obvious that the images were better than what I had.
Click to expand...
 
Also f9 is into diffraction on 7d and not 40d...there are several variables here.
 
bronxbombers said:
maybe you did poor scaling and maybe yuo didnt do post scaling sharpening pass

f/9 is not necessarily by any means going to get everything with crisp focus at once even for somewhat far off trees at 200mm
Click to expand...
depends...

Here is my sharp focus at a tree @ F14 ;) Happy New Year!

5di, 100L, F14, iso3200, ss 1/50, hand-held, NR in LR3 set to zero, sharpening in LR3 set to zero

 
Lots of variables can affect the apparent sharpness of the images, & my first thought is focus. Are you sure your lens is focusing equally well with each body? If you haven't already done so you might want to run MFA on the 7D with your lens & reshoot. Hope this helps & good luck.

Dan.
 
MAC said:
before resizing -- -- if you look at 100% on screen of each the 7d will look softer because you are magnifying further on the 7d

you need to keep the framing on both at the image level the same as you view both
Click to expand...
I agree. That's why I was resizing images.
 
DC Alford said:
Lots of variables can affect the apparent sharpness of the images, & my first thought is focus. Are you sure your lens is focusing equally well with each body? If you haven't already done so you might want to run MFA on the 7D with your lens & reshoot. Hope this helps & good luck.

Dan.
Click to expand...
I can't see how this would be the case... At 300 ft / 100 meters with an f-stop of 9, the depth of field is pretty huge. Starting at about 160 feet, there should be over 1800 feet that are in focus.
 
I'm having the same issue with my EF-S 17-55 lens, which is my favorite all purpose lens, and it was perfect with my 40D. The 7D is a huge step forward, and capable of very sharp photos. This is obvious by merely looking at what others have achieved. I am still a novice and working out my technique, having finally graduated to using Manual mode pretty much all of the time. Everything I've read points to MFA, but as my book indicates "micro focus adjustment is not for the faint of heart", I am a bit timid about trying to perform this operation myself.

Mark A
 
As already asked by others, show us the pictures with the EXIF- data. Otherwise you will only get (educated) guesses which brings you nowhere ...
 
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