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Canon and innovation

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MM1 said:
Lisa O said:
If you haven't bought a new body since 2006 you are behind the curve.
What do you want the camera to do that todays' don't?
The Nikon D7000 is it's answer to the 7D about 10 months behind in release.
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How could that be? 7D is the "flagship" APS-C camera, D7000 is the high-end entry camera. It's an answer to xxD class, leaving all xxD (including 60D) behind.
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The d7000 is not entry level. It is advanced amateur. Even DPR says it is a new slot between the d90 and d300s.

By your logic nikon would have 3 entry level modes: d3100,d5000,d7000 and that is not the case.
MM1 said:
Actually, it's very interesting that one has to use Canon APS-C flagship to counter Nikon advanced entry level camera... That shows the state of innovations in camera body classes for both Nikon and Canon. Canon likes to skimp.
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If you really compare the d7000 and 60D, they aren't far apart. One has things the other does not and in the end it's a wash, really.
 
And don't forget the tilt-shifts: no one has anything remotely the same.

besides, are you raising this as a discussion or are you 'complaining' competing with the jones? if a camera does what you want now, great. otherwise, if it doesn't and you really really need it, go elsewhere. If you don't really need it, wait.

Besides, the skill is not in the camera. Look at the people with iphones that can create better photos than me.

--
Hagen
http://www.flickr.com/hagenhohn
2hphotography.ca
----------------------

50D / Canon lenses 24-105 F4 L IS / 70-200 F2.8 L IS / 50 1.8 / 100 Macro / Sigma
10-22 / 2x converter / Raynox 250 / 580 EX II / Elinchrome Skyport / RFN3 SM610
Trigger /
 
And the AF sensors in the 450/500/550D are inferior to the 400D and earlier models while the 40D had big improvements.
MM1 said:
Keith Z Leonard said:
Could be, but 7d was pretty innovative,
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In Canon world, definitely. But in fact it was a 1.5 year late response to Nikon D300, with the intention to overtake it a bit. But not too much. 1D class needs to be protected at all costs :-)
MM1 said:
and 5dm2, so I can't completely agree.
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--
Cheers,
Martin

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--

 
I just found this:
Scott Bourne has done a comparison of the D7000 and 7D
http://photofocus.com/2010/09/20/comparing-the-nikon-d7000-with-the-canon-7d/
MM1 said:
Lisa O said:
If you haven't bought a new body since 2006 you are behind the curve.
What do you want the camera to do that todays' don't?
The Nikon D7000 is it's answer to the 7D about 10 months behind in release.
Click to expand...
How could that be? 7D is the "flagship" APS-C camera, D7000 is the high-end entry camera. It's an answer to xxD class, leaving all xxD (including 60D) behind.

Actually, it's very interesting that one has to use Canon APS-C flagship to counter Nikon advanced entry level camera... That shows the state of innovations in camera body classes for both Nikon and Canon. Canon likes to skimp.
MM1 said:
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http://www.flickr.com/photos/losta
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--
Cheers,
Martin

Click to expand...
--
see my profile/plan for more info
http://lisaostaphoto.com
http://www.flickr.com/photos/losta
 
but technically 18-55 non-IS is discontinued, and EF-S 60mm and EF-S 10-22 are the only non-IS EF-S lenses currently shipping. One could argue that not having IS is not big deal for a lens with maximum focal length of 22mm that is likely to be used on a tripod most of the time. It is very likely that the next version of EF-S 60mm macro will have (hybrid) IS.

It looks like Canon found a way to add IS to lenses with minimal cost/weight overhead, and all new zoom lenses are coming with IS.

It will be interesting to see if we see updates for telephoto primes like EF 85mm, 135L and 200 2.8L that incorporate IS in the near future.
 
Canon was first or early to market with USM lenses, IS, full frame digital, and broadcast quality HD video in DSLRs (contrary to your claim about video). They are generally ahead of the curve on sensor design and new sensor introduction. They are clearly ahead of the curve when it comes to lenses and lens design. (Nikon being a close second. Nikon fans who would argue this need to take a close look at release dates for difficult glass like the T/S lenses.)
tsk1979 said:
Dust reduction - First canon denied it was needed, but eventually it came in canon DSLRs
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They denied it was needed, or merely weren't first to market with this?
tsk1979 said:
IS - when in body IS came, canon dilly dallied, and then started giving a kit lens with IS
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Canon has always had kit lenses with IS, dating back to the 28-135. The introduction of IS to the cheapest kit lenses only came with their new, easier to manufacture IS mechanism. Are you complaining about the time it took them to develop this, a project which probably started years before anyone had in body IS? Or about the lack of in body IS?
tsk1979 said:
Video - Similar story
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Similar story? If Canon was behind on this then how come the film industry went nuts when the 5D mkII arrived?
tsk1979 said:
And now continuous AF in video. Panasonic does it, Nikon started doing it. Will canon start doing it? You bet. They will, but only a year later.
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How late was Nikon to full frame? How late is Panasonic to a larger sensor? Or to any of dozens of Canon lenses they have no equivalents for? If Canon is behind, why have I been shooting an 18 MP sensor for a year now while Nikon DX and Panasonic were stuck at 12 MP?

You can't expect Canon to be first to market and best in market down to every last feature, idea, and detail. Other companies are going to get some firsts. But Canon has their own list of firsts, many of which are more impressive than the things you list here, and they are arguably the most well rounded company in the small format market.
tsk1979 said:
This is my biggest grouse with canon. I have invested into the system for its strengths. The pizza base is very nice. But canon, please give us some nice toppings too!
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While my 7D is weather sealed, I don't want pepperoni any where near it ;-)
 
Daniel Lee Taylor said:
(tsk1979 said:
Dust reduction - First canon denied it was needed, but eventually it came in canon DSLRs)
Click to expand...
They denied it was needed, or merely weren't first to market with this?
Click to expand...
Actually, in-camera dust reduction isn't needed. Nice to have, but not remotely necessary . So even if Canon did claim it wasn't needed - did they? - they weren't actually wrong.
 
Keith Reeder said:
Daniel Lee Taylor said:
(tsk1979 said:
Dust reduction - First canon denied it was needed, but eventually it came in canon DSLRs)
Click to expand...
They denied it was needed, or merely weren't first to market with this?
Click to expand...
Actually, in-camera dust reduction isn't needed. Nice to have, but not remotely necessary . So even if Canon did claim it wasn't needed - did they? - they weren't actually wrong.
Click to expand...
I won't comment on the needed / not needed (IMO a lot of the hot button features argued on this board are not really needed for successful photography) but from my experience it does work. I probably wet swabed my 20D 5 different times in the 5 years I have had it. I now have a 5DII and a 50D and have never needed to perform that procedure. I have had the 5DII for around 2 years and the other one for a little over 1 year.

--
Flickr: http://www.flickr.com/photos/26158506@N07/
 
David Hull said:
MM1 said:
David Hull said:
IS - when in body IS came, canon dilly dallied, and then started giving a kit lens with IS

Canon has had IS in their kit lenses since before there were any cameras available with In Body IS. The 20D shipped with the EF-S 17-85 IS as a kit in August/September of 2004.
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But 17-85 was pretty luxury "kit lens" at that time, kinda when 5D ships with 24-105L, which in fact isn't in the "kit lens" category by build, price and performance.

The real kit lens at that time was EF-S 18-55 or Mk2 variant, which had no IS at all.
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I think you need to compare apples to apples.
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Well, to me, the kit lens = cheap beginner's lens, not any and all kind of lens that was included in a "kit". 24-105L from the 5D kit isn't a "kit lens" either.
David Hull said:
At that time, the only camera e/w IB IS was the maxim 7D which was launched as a competitor to 20D in the pro / enthusiast segment. Canon never kitted the EF-S 18-55 with the 20D that I am aware of,
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Well, this guy (search for 14-Jun-2006) bought 20D and 18-55:
http://www.pbase.com/cameras/canon/ef_s_1855_35
And I also vaguely remember 20D and 30D being kitted with 18-55 in my country.
David Hull said:
it was always kitted with the EFS 17-85 IS which was of a quality and build comparable to the camera it was shipping with. The EFS 18-55 was not the real kit lens for the 20D / Maxim 7D class of camera. Canon could have bundled the 20D with the 18-55 but I doubt that the kits would have sold well. Most people wanted it with the 17-85 which was a better match for that class of camera.
Click to expand...
It was quite expensive at that time. At least here the local Canon changed their mind. They were selling both kits.
David Hull said:
David Hull said:
David Hull said:
The Minolta Maxim 7D was the first body IS camera which really did not start shipping until the beginning of 2005.
--
Flickr: http://www.flickr.com/photos/26158506@N07/
Click to expand...
--
Cheers,
Martin

Click to expand...
--
Flickr: http://www.flickr.com/photos/26158506@N07/
Click to expand...
--
Cheers,
Martin

 
RedFox88 said:
MM1 said:
Lisa O said:
If you haven't bought a new body since 2006 you are behind the curve.
What do you want the camera to do that todays' don't?
The Nikon D7000 is it's answer to the 7D about 10 months behind in release.
Click to expand...
How could that be? 7D is the "flagship" APS-C camera, D7000 is the high-end entry camera. It's an answer to xxD class, leaving all xxD (including 60D) behind.
Click to expand...
The d7000 is not entry level. It is advanced amateur.
Click to expand...
Oh my, now we really just play with words. Advanced amateur or high end entry as I called it, what does it matter. D7K is positioned below D300, which is positioned below 7D (generally), so therefore it's not fair to compare 7D with D7K or say that it was a response to 7D too late :-)
RedFox88 said:
Even DPR says it is a new slot between the d90 and d300s.

By your logic nikon would have 3 entry level modes: d3100,d5000,d7000 and that is not the case.
RedFox88 said:
Actually, it's very interesting that one has to use Canon APS-C flagship to counter Nikon advanced entry level camera... That shows the state of innovations in camera body classes for both Nikon and Canon. Canon likes to skimp.
Click to expand...
If you really compare the d7000 and 60D, they aren't far apart. One has things the other does not and in the end it's a wash, really.
Click to expand...
It depends on what your priorities are. For me, one of the main priorities is the AF. The PD AF. There it isn't a wash. It's no contest.

--
Cheers,
Martin

 
MM1 said:
David Hull said:
MM1 said:
David Hull said:
IS - when in body IS came, canon dilly dallied, and then started giving a kit lens with IS

Canon has had IS in their kit lenses since before there were any cameras available with In Body IS. The 20D shipped with the EF-S 17-85 IS as a kit in August/September of 2004.
Click to expand...
But 17-85 was pretty luxury "kit lens" at that time, kinda when 5D ships with 24-105L, which in fact isn't in the "kit lens" category by build, price and performance.

The real kit lens at that time was EF-S 18-55 or Mk2 variant, which had no IS at all.
Click to expand...
I think you need to compare apples to apples.
Click to expand...
Well, to me, the kit lens = cheap beginner's lens, not any and all kind of lens that was included in a "kit". 24-105L from the 5D kit isn't a "kit lens" either.
Click to expand...
To me a "kit" lens for a given camera is the one that they put in the"kit" with it, seems simple enough. As for the 5D/24-105 -- if you buy a Lexus, you don't expect to get Corolla floor mats in it ;-).
MM1 said:
MM1 said:
At that time, the only camera e/w IB IS was the maxim 7D which was launched as a competitor to 20D in the pro / enthusiast segment. Canon never kitted the EF-S 18-55 with the 20D that I am aware of,
Click to expand...
Well, this guy (search for 14-Jun-2006) bought 20D and 18-55:
http://www.pbase.com/cameras/canon/ef_s_1855_35
And I also vaguely remember 20D and 30D being kitted with 18-55 in my country.
MM1 said:
it was always kitted with the EFS 17-85 IS which was of a quality and build comparable to the camera it was shipping with. The EFS 18-55 was not the real kit lens for the 20D / Maxim 7D class of camera. Canon could have bundled the 20D with the 18-55 but I doubt that the kits would have sold well. Most people wanted it with the 17-85 which was a better match for that class of camera.
Click to expand...
It was quite expensive at that time. At least here the local Canon changed their mind. They were selling both kits.
MM1 said:
MM1 said:
MM1 said:
The Minolta Maxim 7D was the first body IS camera which really did not start shipping until the beginning of 2005.
--
Flickr: http://www.flickr.com/photos/26158506@N07/
Click to expand...
--
Cheers,
Martin

Click to expand...
--
Flickr: http://www.flickr.com/photos/26158506@N07/
Click to expand...
--
Cheers,
Martin

Click to expand...
--
Flickr: http://www.flickr.com/photos/26158506@N07/
 
Phase Detect Auto Focus, I think.
 
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