F717: 3 Flat Field Macros

Here are three recent F717 macro mode flat field images. Flat field images are a little like photographing a close up of a painting, rather than a piece of sculpture.

Bench test have not shown macro mode to be these cameras strongest feature, therefore some may limit the exploration of its use. I am coming to appreciate the F717 macro by what I can do with it in the field. I switch to macro mode from about one foot in from the subject.

In the varied circumstances shown the F717 Auto focus locked on with sharp certainty. These beautiful old coins were outside in a market stall, the underside of a sea star, shot through glass at an aquarium, several small leaves in a pond held large rain drops, like prisms.

The way that we feel about our cameras capacities can’t help but affect our own. If we can’t overcome cameras perceived limitations, how can we expect to grow through our own? I can appreciate a hard nosed benchmark critical camera analysis, before one purchases their camera.Then its time for direct experience, by the doing of it, a creative adventure.The 505v,f707 or F717: all fine choices. Once I have made my choice, and purchased a camera that suits my needs, my attention is on what I can do to make better images, so that I push my own picture taking threshold.

I am pleasantly surprised to discover unexpected F717 possibilities in a variety of close-ups in the macro mode. You are welcome to share your flat field amd other F717 macros in this thread.
--
NRich
http://www.pbase.com/norman

excellent shots.

completely agree with you. when i was looking for my first digital camera purchase, i was going between the 707 and the G2. The 707 seemed to appeal more. now i know that i need to improve my skills as i can see from evidence on this board, including you..that the camera is very capable. now it rests in my hands (literally) to take great shots

Norman, I hope this doesn't abuse your invitation, but it struck me that I should post a very ordinary test macro here, taken with my CP 5700, mainly because of its topicality with respect to "soft" F717 images and the discussion going in my other thread in the matter of image sharpening -- in-camera and elsewhere. This was taken at 0 in-camera sharpening, though I've since settled on +2 for virtually everything. Naturally this can't do anything to lift the 5700's numerical resolution as tested, but it's a reminder that there's often usable detail waiting to be uncovered. Strangely, I've seen very little discussion on this camera setting in the NTF, either in its own right or in F7x7 comparative threads, even though it's been oft criticised for image softness. Just as with the urban landscape image from Helen's 717, I think that this illustrates the tenuousness of the link between captured detail and perceived sharpness.

Out of the camera except for downsampling to 800 x 600:



And with judicious USM applied. Still nothing ugly or artificial-looking about the detail here -- native softness and OOF problems aren't the same thing at all:



Mike

NRich said:

The way that we feel about our cameras capacities can’t help but
affect our own. If we can’t overcome cameras perceived
limitations, how can we expect to grow through our own?
...
... Once I have made my choice, and purchased a camera
that suits my needs, my attention is on what I can do to make
better images, so that I push my own picture taking threshold.
...
You are welcome to share your flat field amd other F717 macros
in this thread.

Click to expand...

Shame its about the 717 ). Dont expect or except any camera to do well in macro mode, when it comes out of the box. It's up to YOU to make it do better. You are right in calling it close-up and not macro. The term macro is abused by camera manufacture's. Oops, sorry I better not start, LOL. I don't own a 717. )

All the best, this should be an interesting thread to follow.

Danny.

--
Macro, what a world.
.............................
http://www.macrophotos.com

Mike Fitzgerald said:

Norman, I hope this doesn't abuse your invitation, but it struck me
that I should post a very ordinary test macro here, taken with my
CP 5700, mainly because of its topicality with respect to "soft"
F717 images and the discussion going in my other thread in the
matter of image sharpening -- in-camera and elsewhere.

Click to expand...

Mike ...Your response doesn't abuse the invitation, ..may be compounding over lapping issues from 2 of our posts though. Those interested in related issues of may wish to pull Up your curent thread, that I have contributed to. Currently our STF finds itself in an upheavel of confidence re. F717 focusing issues. In this thread where possible I would like to maintain a focus on the creative close-up oportunities with the new F717. along with the F707 and 505v.

I am finding the "macro" mode can make for unexpectedly good imaging in my flat field close-up work.

I'm suggesting further wider exploration and enjoyment in this area,undetered by (ironically)-the proverbial watch photo.(and yours are fine examples as such). While dpreview bench marks test rate the 717 tops in 5 mil pixel prosumer resolution, I've noted Bench tests are less favorable in the "macro" dept.

However, while a watch tells the time, it doesn't tell the whole story.

It is useful to distinguish between a controled lighting bench watch macro,your photos(again,of fine technical quality) and the varying challenges of field work,represented by my three macro close-ups. I find the concept of "the Best" to be a mischevious illusion, a facet of the ongoing folly of camera wars. We may get periously close in this thread, and still be able to avoid it.

My contention is the question of whats" the best" is in reality, one of best suited. Appraisal based on technical considerations only, would have up conclude there is an absolute Best-that judgement is simply reduced to a numbers game. As I have a 30 year visual arts background I arrive in digital imaging with a different set of references. The term "Best Art" is somewhat absurd in the art world. Instead the useable focus is on well realized creative intent.

Is the F717 best suited for the range of my needs-including close-ups.. a resounding Yes. Why?-Well One important reason is that bench mark tests do not take into account the invisible vital factor of the real world F7x7's very fast F2.0-2.4 lens light capturing capacity. Wherever posible I use a tripod.However all three images posted here, while braced, were not able to be shot on a tripod.

These three images in these circumstances would would be unlikely or unobtainable in significantly slower lens common to this class of prosumer camera.

I am suggesting that the creative opportunities are available, in abundance for macro close-up with the 7x7 series. This is important for those still realing with confidence issues, around the F717 which I find a landmark, and a joy to use. My attention at the moment is on overcoming perceived theoretical camera limitations, by growing with confident creativity in the field.

Mike Fitzgerald said:

NRich said:

The way that we feel about our cameras capacities can’t help but
affect our own. If we can’t overcome cameras perceived
limitations, how can we expect to grow through our own?
...
... Once I have made my choice, and purchased a camera
that suits my needs, my attention is on what I can do to make
better images, so that I push my own picture taking threshold.
...
You are welcome to share your flat field and other F717 macros
in this thread.

Click to expand...

Click to expand...

--
NRich
http://www.pbase.com/norman

nzmacro said:

Shame its about the 717 ). Dont expect or except any camera to
do well in macro mode, when it comes out of the box. It's up to YOU
to make it do better. You are right in calling it close-up and not
macro. The term macro is abused by camera manufacture's. Oops,
sorry I better not start, LOL. I don't own a 717. )

All the best, this should be an interesting thread to follow.

Danny.

--
Macro, what a world.
.............................
http://www.macrophotos.com

Click to expand...

Hello Danny.

Macro, what a world indeed. I recomend those here in the STF browse you well constucted galleries featuring exceptional dedication to macro photography.Your love and commitment in this area is readily apparent.

I appreciate your making a distiction between macro and close-ups.I've choosen to combine the two terms for " macro close-ups".(macro here may also refer to the right side of the control button on the 717.)

Based on your experience you may be able to contribute ways of squeezing more out of these models in close-up mode, such as lighting rings, close up attachments etc..I am fully aware that there are undoutedly "better" specialized outfits, on the market. I would invite you to share at your best. Your quote " shame its about the F717"-(even with the smiley face) some folks, a little raw these days, may rightly or wrongly, pereceived as camera bashing.

There are so many areas, levels, and orientation of experience converging here. Please visit my galleries as I have yours for each of us to know where the other is coming from. What is readily appreciated, are those macro specialists, such as yourself, who are able to put aside camera bias, for the opportunities to share wonderfull worlds that open when we venture a little closer to our subjects.
--
Regards
NRich
http://www.pbase.com/norman

excedium said:

excellent shots.

completely agree with you. when i was looking for my first digital
camera purchase, i was going between the 707 and the G2. The 707
seemed to appeal more. now i know that i need to improve my skills
as i can see from evidence on this board, including you..that the
camera is very capable. now it rests in my hands (literally) to
take great shots

Click to expand...

Hello Excedium,

The F7x7 series is indeed very capable, and it rests in your hands (literally) to take great shots. I entirely agree with you. This understanding is very freeing, it puts ones attention on the choices we make, putting the camera through its paces.
Thank you for responding.

--
NRich
http://www.pbase.com/norman

Never camera biased Rich. My pet hate is brand bashing and certain brands that say they have the best macro features. Like heck they have.

I use 35mm Canon's and Nikon's as well. Not as much as I used to but they are still my babies. ). So I can't be biased, LOL. Mainly use the Sony CD-1000 now. Much more capable of true macro up to well over 75:1. Something I can't squeeze out of a 35mm SLR or a D-SLR. So the Sony CD-1000 is the weapon of choice. On the front I add 35mm lenses, bellows, enlarging lenses and slide projector lenses. Flash is usually up to 3 external. Also a ringflash is used, depending on what is needed. An old page should give you an idea

http://www.nzmacro.50megs.com/lenses/lenses.htm

I can't see why most won't work with the 707 or the 717. The only thing that stopped me from getting a 707 was the pre flash. No good for flash slaves. Also no image stabilization. That's what I would miss the most. The 717 has cured the flash problem (thanks for listening to the usre's Sony). It may make me try one even without the image stablization. Could well be worth a try. Using 35mm lenses with the 707/717, either normal or reversed, you will probably need to enter digital zoom to get rid of vignetting. Now the digital zoom, when used for macro work, is not as bad as using it for std shot's. The deatil has already been enlarged and is already there, so digital zoom is not so noticable. Better say IMHO.

Anyway Rich, I will check out your site and if anyone else want's to post up a macro gallery, I would be most interested in the result's.

All the best Rich and interesting.

Danny.

--
Macro, what a world.
.............................
http://www.macrophotos.com

nzmacro said:

On the front I add 35mm lenses, bellows, enlarging lenses and slide projector
lenses. Flash is usually up to 3 external. Also a ringflash is
used, depending on what is needed. An old page should give you an
idea.

Click to expand...

nzmacro said:

I can't see why most won't work with the 707 or the 717.

Click to expand...

Very Interesting, I'm wondering who else may have taken these and other steps in macro add ons in STF forum. I recall it was ZipperZ that did some work with a ring flash. Anyone else out there? Models, recomendations based on their experience. I'd like to see more of us pressing the envelope with the 7x7 series that we have.

Danny, can you be a little more specific on such things as, the whats and hows of bellows, slide projector lens,and ring flashes that would be well matched to the 7x7 series? I still have a Leitz 2.5 90 mm lens with my Pradolux RT 300 projector from my kodachrome slide days.-too small a diameter though. I'm Fully converting over to digital now. My prefence is is to work outside-in natural enviroments with available light. Olmypus makes A TCON-35 that is may funtion as a good macro attachment, and of course there are the Nikon close-up filters.

I am loking for good flat field macro optics, a compact add on unit that would travel well in a pelican case.I think there are a number of us that are looking in this direction to extend further in the macro-close- up range with a portable add on. I noted the glass magnifying lens adaption in your link - thanks. I'm wondering if we can get F7x7 feed back from others who have researched in this direction using for example a magnifying glass, or digital in macro mode with their prefered attachment(s) ? Interesting subjects- nice to converse with you on them.

Regards
NRich
http://www.pbase.com/norman

p.s.NRich is an abreviation of Norman Rich
Your welcome to call me Norman, or NRich

LOL, hahaha, now thats funny Rich

I use the Leitz 90mm 2.5 projector len's. Of course for macro 35mm it had to be Kodachrome 25 ). LOL. Small world huh.

Ok serious stuff. Take a rear lens cap, cut out the center and if it's tapered like the Nikon's or Canon's it will jam fit into a filter ring. Either step up or step down ring. Glue it in there with epoxy resin. Thread it onto the filter thread of the camera. now mount any lens you want from that system. Does not need to be reversed. Now the interesting part. Because the 35mm lens is mounted to a rear lens cap, that apeture on the lens can be set in combination with the camera's. Vignetting will occur at a set point, the 717 , I'm not sure ??? The same rear cap will also take a bellows ).

Trick is NOT to use the macro mode. Use the zoom on the digital camera lens to adjust ratio and to avoid that vignetting.

My email is in my profile so if you want anything, just ask. I would love to see some result's from the 717.

Flat feild. Well 35 mm macro lenses are the best for that of course. There is a few problems with using added lenses Rich. Trying to find the optomized lens to use is not easy. Each digital camera lens and CCD will behave differently. Prime example. The lens I use the most is not a macro lens or a fixed prime len's, its a Nikkor 70-210 zoom on front of the Sony. Its a great match and shows less abberations and disstortion than the rest. I have 9 fixed prime Canon lenses and 6 fixed prime Nikkor lenses. 3 of those are macro lenses and yet, that 70-210 zoom is the best of the lot.

For the 717 or any digital camera really, the same lens might not work as well on a camera of the same model and brand. It's really a matter of just trying and playing. Something will click and the image will just look better. Do some tests of your own with different lenses of a stationary, inside object and just look at it. BOKEH of course will alway's look fantastic because of the very shallow DOF. Some slightly better than other's.

The finest screw in filter diopter type, that seems to work just beautifully with any digicam is the "Canon 500 D". Not cheap, but one heck of a decent and gorgeous hunk of glass. IMHO the best. Forget the rest. Just thread it on and start shooting great clear macro's.

Whew, that should keep you busy. Sorry Rich, not great at this writing stuff. Just interests me is all, LOL.

All the best Rich.

Danny.

--
Macro, what a world.
.............................
http://www.macrophotos.com

nzmacro said:

--
Macro, what a world.
.............................
http://www.macrophotos.com

Click to expand...

--
NRich
http://www.pbase.com/norman

Hi Danny

You mentioned the Canon 500D- I've since made follow up searches on the internet. I've narrowed the choice of high quality add on macro-close ups for the F717. One being the 500D and the other the Olympus MCON 35.both two element lenses -simular priced.The MCON 35 is part of a lens series I'm already fond of, and familar with. I currently use the TCON 14B and WCON 08B with excellant results. This series uses Zuiko glass- sometimes refered to as a poor mans Zeiss. I've had one of each put aside for comparisons at a local camera store, I'll try them tommorrow or the next day.Your Input, or others that might have experience with either or both lens, is timely.

Regards
Norman

Norman, fwiw here are several links that give some quantitative info on likely CU lenses. The samples done by Pondria were actually with a lower grade, single element lens, but the figures on effective working distances are useful, since one of the main benefits can be getting enough room to light your subject properly, and I gather he moved to using the 500D. Unfortunately the last one of these (Bob Atkins) wasn't working a moment ago but I've posted it anyway in case the problem is a transitory one. It gives a very comprehensive tabular listing of the effects of the 500D and 250D with a large variety of lenses behind them.
http://www.sesee.com/Photo/F505V_tips_closeup.htm
http://www.angelfire.com/ca/erker/closeups.html
http://bobatkins.photo.net/info/faq30/closeup.htm

Although it's intended primarily for use at shorter focal lengths, I've always been interested to know what the 250D would do for a 7x7 -- on its own and also when stacked with a 500D -- but I've never managed to find anyone who's tried it. Maybe if you have the opportunity it would be worth the assessment along with the others. FWIW I have the Nikon 3T and 4T rough equivalents on order.

Regards,

Mike

NRich said:

You mentioned the Canon 500D- I've since made follow up searches on
the internet. I've narrowed the choice of high quality add on
macro-close ups for the F717. One being the 500D and the other the
Olympus MCON 35.both two element lenses -simular priced.The MCON 35
is part of a lens series I'm already fond of, and familar with. I
currently use the TCON 14B and WCON 08B with excellant results.
This series uses Zuiko glass- sometimes refered to as a poor mans
Zeiss. I've had one of each put aside for comparisons at a local
camera store, I'll try them tommorrow or the next day.Your Input,
or others that might have experience with either or both lens, is
timely.

Click to expand...

Mike Fitzgerald said:

Norman, fwiw here are several links that give some quantitative
info on likely CU lenses. The samples done by Pondria were actually
with a lower grade, single element lens, but the figures on
effective working distances are useful, since one of the main
benefits can be getting enough room to light your subject properly,
and I gather he moved to using the 500D. Unfortunately the last one
of these (Bob Atkins) wasn't working a moment ago but I've posted
it anyway in case the problem is a transitory one. It gives a very
comprehensive tabular listing of the effects of the 500D and 250D
with a large variety of lenses behind them.
http://www.sesee.com/Photo/F505V_tips_closeup.htm
http://www.angelfire.com/ca/erker/closeups.html
http://bobatkins.photo.net/info/faq30/closeup.htm
Although it's intended primarily for use at shorter focal lengths,
I've always been interested to know what the 250D would do for a
7x7 -- on its own and also when stacked with a 500D -- but I've
never managed to find anyone who's tried it. Maybe if you have the
opportunity it would be worth the assessment along with the others.
FWIW I have the Nikon 3T and 4T rough equivalents on order.

Regards,

Mike

Click to expand...

Thank you Mike,

We've a rather good camera shop here, not far away. I hope I won't be imposing to set up a quick test of the two lens in the store. Your right the working distance from the subject- will differ-and will matter.Thanks for the links. I'll put a short hold on both lens-download the sample images when I get home, likely by tommorrow -I'll have pulled the trigger and returned to purchase one of them. Look for my post to you and Danny on this thread, with the early impressions as early as tommorrow evening- West Coast Time.

Folks seem a little shy to jump in on this thread-Terry Callies and I seem to be on the same page in owning and enthusiastic about our TCON 14B and WCON-Lens. I know he has the MCON 35 macro-Are you there Terry? Its worth a look at his varied pbase tool page-found here in the search engine. By the way, how are you attaching links from a previous thread to the current one?

--

NRich
http://www.pbase.com/norman

They might be quite about posting here Rich, but they are reading, my stats tell me that ).

Be looking forward to your post Rich, should be very interesting.

All the best Rich and Mike.

Danny.

--
Macro, what a world.
.............................
http://www.macrophotos.com

Is it Rich or Norman. Somehow I think it could be Norman, sorry about that.

Danny.

--
Macro, what a world.
.............................
http://www.macrophotos.com

NRich said:

... Look for my post to you and Danny on this thread, with
the early impressions as early as tommorrow evening- West Coast
Time.

Click to expand...

Thanks Norman, I'lll look forward to it with interest.

NRich said:

Folks seem a little shy to jump in on this thread-Terry Callies and
I seem to be on the same page in owning and enthusiastic about our
TCON 14B and WCON-Lens. I know he has the MCON 35 macro-Are you
there Terry?

Click to expand...

Could be a victim of the speed with which threads are growing stale (off the page), what with all the 717 discussions that are running just now. I suspect he'd welcome an e-mail from you inviting him to join in.

NRich said:

... By the way, how are you attaching links
from a previous thread to the current one?

Click to expand...

All you have to do is view the target (I keep a lot of bookmarks to these), copy the URL from the browser Address bar while it's on screen, and paste it into your text. You can do this just as well in your text editor, btw, along with the rest of your draft; i.e. similar to embedding a photo or linking to it, but more straightforward with none of the caveats. It will show up correctly here as an active hyperlink (allowing you to test it if you wish) once you get to Preview.

Mike

nowhere near experts like you guys but I have been thinking about buying the Canon 250D or the Nikon 4, 5, 6Ts. I know someone with the Nikon who is experimenting with it now but it was floating in my head how come I haven't read any threads here (so far) about the Canon and then I happened to pop into this thread. Lucky me.

I'm following this thread to hopefully see some pictures to compare the various esp, the Canon 250D and 500D : =)) I have a quote for USD70 for the 250D.
Any price comparisons out there?

Babe, this is more for your general info than suggestive of what it might do for an F7x7, but fwiw here's a link to Phil's review of the Canon G2, at a page which shows the 250D at work. The focal length of the G2's lens is not quoted here, though it may be noted that the 250D is recommended more for use towards the wide rather than full telephoto end of the lens on which you're mounting it.
http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/canong2/page14.asp

Nevertheless the 250D is a 4 dioptre lens against the 2 dioptre power of the 500D and I'd be interested to see the results with it on a 7x7. I think the price you're quoting is as good as it gets (B & H wants $82.95 for the 58 mm version). At least both of these Canon CU lenses exist in a 58 mm size, which is not the case with the Nikon "T" range. I have the 3T and 4T on order, but they are for my CP5700.

Mike

Babe said:

nowhere near experts like you guys but I have been thinking about
buying the Canon 250D or the Nikon 4, 5, 6Ts. I know someone
with the Nikon who is experimenting with it now but it was floating
in my head how come I haven't read any threads here (so far) about
the Canon and then I happened to pop into this thread. Lucky me.

I'm following this thread to hopefully see some pictures to compare
the various esp, the Canon 250D and 500D : =)) I have a quote for
USD70 for the 250D.
Any price comparisons out there?

Click to expand...

thanks Mike,

I will go read the other thread soon. I've seen some nice pictures of real closeups taken with a close up lens attached behind even a teleconverter for that much more flexibility in distance. What are your thoughts on this and what are you using when you're out taking macro closeups?

appreciate your input.

NRich wrote:

Hey Norman, my experiments with the ringflash were short lived. I lent it to a friend to use who was attending a orchid show. Unfortunately it got stolen right out of his camera bag. Too many people, too many photographers and so on. Anyways, i got compensated for it so all is square. Im on the hunt for a new one but with varying flash power this time around. Ive looked at the Nikon and Canon but they are very pricey. I have since invested in 2 close-ups lens elements, the Nikon 5T and 6T and they are both excellent. Ive just got to get off my lazy tuff and go use them.

good to see you and your visions again

--
cheers
Zip