At what speed does IS become necessary?

Yes, another person debating their 70-200 IS vs non-IS purchase. Sorry!

I plan on using the lens to primairly shoot indoor sports i.e. gymnastics so I'll be using 1/250 and faster, most of the time at 2.8 and at 200mm. Would the be an ideal situation for IS? Would IS make a good 'insurance policy' against camera shake at that shutter speed? And yes, I searched the forums but haven't found any discussion about 'faster' shutter speeds.

Apply the reciprocal rule.

That is, for 35mm frame, 1/lens length = min shutter speed.

For example, to avoid shake with a 200mm lens, you need at least 1/200th handheld.

With digital, you need to take the FOV crop into account, so it is the 35mm equivalent FOV, in other words with a 200mm on a D30/D60, you have effective 320mm, so need at least 1/320th.

Now, this rule is a little pessimistic, and you might manage up to a stop slower, depending on how steady you are.

IS then gives you 2-3 stops more below what you can hold with a non-IS lens.

For example, on 35mm, I can hand-hold a 300mm lens at 1/180th and get sharp results. With my 300 F4L IS, I have sharper shots taken at 1/60th.

So what you're saying is that IS isn't just for those 1/10 and 1/30th shots?

Isaac Sibson said:

Apply the reciprocal rule.

That is, for 35mm frame, 1/lens length = min shutter speed.

For example, to avoid shake with a 200mm lens, you need at least
1/200th handheld.

With digital, you need to take the FOV crop into account, so it is
the 35mm equivalent FOV, in other words with a 200mm on a D30/D60,
you have effective 320mm, so need at least 1/320th.

Now, this rule is a little pessimistic, and you might manage up to
a stop slower, depending on how steady you are.

IS then gives you 2-3 stops more below what you can hold with a
non-IS lens.

For example, on 35mm, I can hand-hold a 300mm lens at 1/180th and
get sharp results. With my 300 F4L IS, I have sharper shots taken
at 1/60th.

Click to expand...

As lens lengths increase, IS becomes more necessary. Hence the fact that canon have replaced the Great White Lenses with IS versions, but not bothered putting IS into short primes which have come out more recently.

The only IS lenses which could get down to 1/10th or 1/30th are the 70-200 F2.8L IS and the 28-135. The others are long enough that two stops gain is still only in the 1/60th to 1/90th region.

Look at a 600mm lens. If you were to attempt to hand-hold (say a 300 F4 + 2X....obviously no one is going to try to hand-hold a 600 F4), you'd need 1/600th shutter speed to avoid shake. How often do you see a speed that fast in normal use? Not so often, so that's where IS is really necessary, to get shutter speeds into the realm of the usable.

Yep. The IS feature allows you to handhold at 2 to 3 stops below your best handheld shutter speed. As a general rule, and depending on how steady you are, this normally would be 1/(lens lenght) or 1/200 at the maximum telephoto setting for the 70-200. With practice you can go lower using various techniques. (but the IS extends your range)

When using the 70-200, if we assume that the best handheld sharpeness is 1/200 for you, then you should also be able to use it at 1/125, 1/60, or even 1/30 with IS.

The advantage is that suddenly you can use the lens in lower light conditions that would normally require a tripod such as shooting at 200mm with a 1/60 shutter speed.

I have shot sharp photos at 28mm with my 28-135 at 1/8 of a second. Normally 1/30 is the best I can do without bracing myself against a wall.

neil kodner said:

Isaac Sibson said:

Apply the reciprocal rule.

That is, for 35mm frame, 1/lens length = min shutter speed.

For example, to avoid shake with a 200mm lens, you need at least
1/200th handheld.

With digital, you need to take the FOV crop into account, so it is
the 35mm equivalent FOV, in other words with a 200mm on a D30/D60,
you have effective 320mm, so need at least 1/320th.

Now, this rule is a little pessimistic, and you might manage up to
a stop slower, depending on how steady you are.

IS then gives you 2-3 stops more below what you can hold with a
non-IS lens.

For example, on 35mm, I can hand-hold a 300mm lens at 1/180th and
get sharp results. With my 300 F4L IS, I have sharper shots taken
at 1/60th.

Click to expand...

Click to expand...

--
Bill

So just how important is IS on something like a 600mm f4, the sheer size of which would logically suggest the use of a sturdy tripod?

In my case I'll be trying to use the fastest shutter speed at f2.8 while zoomed out to 200. I will be shooting action in 'lower' light situations (1/325 @ f8 ISO 800). Would IS be much benefit under those conditions?

Bill White said:

When using the 70-200, if we assume that the best handheld
sharpeness is 1/200 for you, then you should also be able to use it
at 1/125, 1/60, or even 1/30 with IS.

The advantage is that suddenly you can use the lens in lower light
conditions that would normally require a tripod such as shooting at
200mm with a 1/60 shutter speed.

I have shot sharp photos at 28mm with my 28-135 at 1/8 of a second.
Normally 1/30 is the best I can do without bracing myself against a
wall.

neil kodner said:

Isaac Sibson said:

Apply the reciprocal rule.

That is, for 35mm frame, 1/lens length = min shutter speed.

For example, to avoid shake with a 200mm lens, you need at least
1/200th handheld.

With digital, you need to take the FOV crop into account, so it is
the 35mm equivalent FOV, in other words with a 200mm on a D30/D60,
you have effective 320mm, so need at least 1/320th.

Now, this rule is a little pessimistic, and you might manage up to
a stop slower, depending on how steady you are.

IS then gives you 2-3 stops more below what you can hold with a
non-IS lens.

For example, on 35mm, I can hand-hold a 300mm lens at 1/180th and
get sharp results. With my 300 F4L IS, I have sharper shots taken
at 1/60th.

Click to expand...

Click to expand...

--
Bill

Click to expand...

If you carefully read Canon's specs on their IS system, and do a little math, it turns out that the response time of the gyros is about 1/500 sec, so you'll have to be shooting slower than that for the system to be able to correct your shake. Of course, if you're shooting 1/500 sec at 200 mm ( even enlarged to 320 mm ), you shouldn't need IS... I wouldn't expect it to do much good slower than 1/80 or so at full zoom ... so there's an approximate range.

I took some shots that turned out very nice this weekend at 1/15 sec with the 70-200 2.8L IS at 200mm on the 1D. My technique typically lets me get away hand held with 1-2 stops below the reciprocal rule. I brace my elbow into my gut (comes in handy once in a while), get a good foot stance, take a deep breath, and balance the camera on three fingers instead of gripping or holding it.

Bill White said:

When using the 70-200, if we assume that the best handheld
sharpeness is 1/200 for you, then you should also be able to use it
at 1/125, 1/60, or even 1/30 with IS.

The advantage is that suddenly you can use the lens in lower light
conditions that would normally require a tripod such as shooting at
200mm with a 1/60 shutter speed.

I have shot sharp photos at 28mm with my 28-135 at 1/8 of a second.
Normally 1/30 is the best I can do without bracing myself against a
wall.

neil kodner said:

Isaac Sibson said:

Apply the reciprocal rule.

That is, for 35mm frame, 1/lens length = min shutter speed.

For example, to avoid shake with a 200mm lens, you need at least
1/200th handheld.

With digital, you need to take the FOV crop into account, so it is
the 35mm equivalent FOV, in other words with a 200mm on a D30/D60,
you have effective 320mm, so need at least 1/320th.

Now, this rule is a little pessimistic, and you might manage up to
a stop slower, depending on how steady you are.

IS then gives you 2-3 stops more below what you can hold with a
non-IS lens.

For example, on 35mm, I can hand-hold a 300mm lens at 1/180th and
get sharp results. With my 300 F4L IS, I have sharper shots taken
at 1/60th.

Click to expand...

Click to expand...

--
Bill

Click to expand...

General rule of thumb is the reciprocal of the focal length is required for hand holding so a 200mm lens at 1/200. This is only a guide of course. most people can hand hold lower than that. it also depends on camera weight and lens weight and weight distribution and hand holding technique and so many other things.

In addition it also helps if the place you are is moving (shooting from a moving car or tram for example)

I would say that yes IS will definately give you the edge. you can shoot at a lower ISO and give up some of the shutter speed only of course as long as the shutter speed is high enough to stop the action.

--
Michael Salzlechner
StarZen Digital Imaging
http://www.starzen.com/imaging

These big lenses because they are so huge shake even on a sturdy tripod aespecially if wind is present.

--
Michael Salzlechner
StarZen Digital Imaging
http://www.starzen.com/imaging

for the short time I had a 28-135IS here, I found that IS was only really effective from 80 or 100 to 135mm and even then it didn't seem to do as much stabilization as my 75-300IS at the same focal lengths.. at 300mm (my copy is sharp here) it's pretty essential for handheld work unless you can attain silly shutter speeds.

--
Olympus C2100UZI +B300, Canon D60.

My Ugly mug and submitted Photos at -------->
http://www.photosig.com/viewuser.php?id=27855

a pic with IS and a Pic without IS will be a much better answer.

neil kodner said:

Yes, another person debating their 70-200 IS vs non-IS purchase.
Sorry!

I plan on using the lens to primairly shoot indoor sports i.e.
gymnastics so I'll be using 1/250 and faster, most of the time at
2.8 and at 200mm. Would the be an ideal situation for IS? Would
IS make a good 'insurance policy' against camera shake at that
shutter speed? And yes, I searched the forums but haven't found
any discussion about 'faster' shutter speeds.

Click to expand...

Neil,

I didn't see what camera you'd be shooting with - will it be a 1.6 crop of the D30/60, 1.3x of the 1D or 1.0x of the 1Ds ?

Shooting at 320mm on a D60 at 1/250th could raise some sharpness issues due to you moving. On a 1D, 260mm would fit the 'rule of thumb' for reciprocal.

What can help this is to use a monopod to steady your camera/lens. I shot a gymnastics meet early this year with a D30 and 200/1.8 - where the arena was so dark, I could only muster 1/160th shutter (and that was about a 1/2 push!) Using a monopod allowed me to get the shots that were in focus to be sharp. (problem is that the D30/60 AF really bites for tracking gymnasts!)

Another issue how dark the gyms that you'll be shooting in. At f/1.8 and 1600ISO, I can get 1/400th as an average in most gyms that I shoot in. If you're looking at 2.8 and 800ISO, then the relative shutter would be less than 1/100th. If you are in brighter - college level (most) arenas, you may get to shoot faster shutters with lesser ISO and aperture.

If you're serious about shooting gymnastics, trust me and ask anybody who does it - get a 1D and primes.

http://www.sportsshooter.com/members.html?id=518

Good luck...
Brian.

Brian,

Thanks for answering my question with the detail I'm looking for.

I did leave out the camera (D60).

As far as the lighting in the gyms go, it varies. Fortunately, I have an Elan 7e also, with its terrific autofocus and the ability to take 3200 speed film!

A 1D/ 200 1.8 lens is out of my budget for the time being, but those are the two pieces of gear I lust after most!

Hammy said:

Neil,

I didn't see what camera you'd be shooting with - will it be a 1.6
crop of the D30/60, 1.3x of the 1D or 1.0x of the 1Ds ?

Shooting at 320mm on a D60 at 1/250th could raise some sharpness
issues due to you moving. On a 1D, 260mm would fit the 'rule of
thumb' for reciprocal.

What can help this is to use a monopod to steady your camera/lens.
I shot a gymnastics meet early this year with a D30 and 200/1.8 -
where the arena was so dark, I could only muster 1/160th shutter
(and that was about a 1/2 push!) Using a monopod allowed me to get
the shots that were in focus to be sharp. (problem is that the
D30/60 AF really bites for tracking gymnasts!)

Another issue how dark the gyms that you'll be shooting in. At
f/1.8 and 1600ISO, I can get 1/400th as an average in most gyms
that I shoot in. If you're looking at 2.8 and 800ISO, then the
relative shutter would be less than 1/100th. If you are in
brighter - college level (most) arenas, you may get to shoot faster
shutters with lesser ISO and aperture.

If you're serious about shooting gymnastics, trust me and ask
anybody who does it - get a 1D and primes.

http://www.sportsshooter.com/members.html?id=518

Good luck...
Brian.

Click to expand...

How do you feel about the 135 F2L and/or the 85 1.8 to complement the 70-200 2.8L? Do you have any experience with either of these two lenses?

Hammy said:

Neil,

I didn't see what camera you'd be shooting with - will it be a 1.6
crop of the D30/60, 1.3x of the 1D or 1.0x of the 1Ds ?

Shooting at 320mm on a D60 at 1/250th could raise some sharpness
issues due to you moving. On a 1D, 260mm would fit the 'rule of
thumb' for reciprocal.

What can help this is to use a monopod to steady your camera/lens.
I shot a gymnastics meet early this year with a D30 and 200/1.8 -
where the arena was so dark, I could only muster 1/160th shutter
(and that was about a 1/2 push!) Using a monopod allowed me to get
the shots that were in focus to be sharp. (problem is that the
D30/60 AF really bites for tracking gymnasts!)

Another issue how dark the gyms that you'll be shooting in. At
f/1.8 and 1600ISO, I can get 1/400th as an average in most gyms
that I shoot in. If you're looking at 2.8 and 800ISO, then the
relative shutter would be less than 1/100th. If you are in
brighter - college level (most) arenas, you may get to shoot faster
shutters with lesser ISO and aperture.

If you're serious about shooting gymnastics, trust me and ask
anybody who does it - get a 1D and primes.

http://www.sportsshooter.com/members.html?id=518

Good luck...
Brian.

Click to expand...

neil kodner said:

How do you feel about the 135 F2L and/or the 85 1.8 to complement
the 70-200 2.8L? Do you have any experience with either of these
two lenses?

Click to expand...

The first prime I bought when I switched over to Canon was the 200/1.8 - good news is that when you start with the best, easy come the rest - bad news is that most lenses are not as sharp!

Very shortly after the monster, I got an 85/1.8 for the shorter stuff - fast focus, low DOF, great for low light. Then I added a 50/1.4 and 20/1.8 to my collection for varying angles/distances in the gym. And just today did I fill the gap from 85-200 with the 135/2.

With the D60, the 85 and 135 become 136 and 216 respectively - and thats at f/1.8 and 2.0! You'll find that for all events except floor, that primes will work wonderfully because the rest are on appartus that they gymnast is relatively stationary. Even for floor - I position myself so that the close side is very tight with my 200 (260), the middle is just right and the far end becomes a cropped image.

But having the ability to get an extra 1.3 stops makes the difference of being able to shoot anytime (1/640th) or just during poses/slow action (1/250th). Not to mention the extra light allows AF to work easier and the DOF at 1.8 is incredible (as long as the AF can keep up to make it tack)

So either way, if you already have the 70-200 or not, get those two lenses - you'll be very happy with their performace (as much as the D60 can offer) for gymnastics

Hope this helps...
Brian.

See below, guy at airshow hand holding 600mm f/4 + 1.4x extender.

Isaac Sibson said:

Look at a 600mm lens. If you were to attempt to hand-hold (say a
300 F4 + 2X....obviously no one is going to try to hand-hold a 600
F4)...

Click to expand...

I've used my father's 135 F2L, and it's a superb lens. Here's an example:

http://www.photo.net/photodb/image-display?photo_id=829132&size=lg

Somewhere in the F2 - F2.8 region. It's a lovely lens to use.

I remember someone did a test where they compared IS to non IS shots at different shutter speeds and found some improvement above the 1/(lens lenght) rule of thumb. Apparently I did not save the link.

I do not have the 70-200 IS model. If I did not have one and were buying one, I would spring for the IS if I could.

neil kodner said:

In my case I'll be trying to use the fastest shutter speed at f2.8
while zoomed out to 200. I will be shooting action in 'lower' light
situations (1/325 @ f8 ISO 800). Would IS be much benefit under
those conditions?

Click to expand...

--
Bill