GRD III - how good is it?

Haven't been here for a long time; I've lived very happily with my GRD I. But now I've got that adj wheel issue a lot of owners have had...

What do the community feel about the GRD III? Haven't seen many tests.

Kind of costly... There is the new Samsung EX1 and the new Panasonic LX5... Even a Oly PL1 or a Panasonic GF1 with a short fast lens would be alternatives I guess?

I love the handling of the Ricoh. My EOS 20D has not been in much use I must admit.

Eddy Teddy said:

Haven't been here for a long time; I've lived very happily with my GRD I. But now I've got that adj wheel issue a lot of owners have had...

What do the community feel about the GRD III? Haven't seen many tests.

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I have had a GRD for years and always enjoyed it. Recently I reluctantly admitted to myself that i never really like the colour and I switched to using B&W more and more.

Wanting good colour I have been considering X1 (great photographs but too expensive) and DP1/2 (I am still not always totally convinced by the photographs).

Two weeks ago I bough a cheap GX100. I was suddenly knocked out by it's colour performance. The jpg NR is a little less to my liking in high iSO B&W but for colour it is fantastic. I still prefer the simplicity and handling of the GRD but love the GX100 for its pictures..

This led me to start looking at the GRD3 carefully – which I have never considered before as I had the GRD I. From looking at samples it is clear that it is at least as good as, if not better than, the GX100 for colour and then obviously has a much better lens. I also know from trying a friend's GRDII that the interface/menu felt improved over the GRD I.

I'm starting to think that because a. it has the brilliant GRD I handling and b. does good colour the GRD3 can rival the other compact cameras I mentioned. The GRD3 can be less than £400, UK

Have a look over at Odklizec 's great ricohforum. There are plenty samples, comparisons and information there.

Hope that helps.

For me, the best fixed lens compact camera.

PS:

Also own the EX1, but´can´t really compare those two. While the GRD3 is like the pencil for the artist, the EX1 is like the canvas to be painted.
As for the Panas...had the LX3 and it was not quite the matching color for me.

But who knows if the LX5 has changed the way colors are rendered..i personally think not. But for sure the LX5 has better ergonomics than the LX3.

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nemo66...

Thanks!

"While the GRD3 is like the pencil for the artist, the EX1 is like the canvas to be painted."

Sorry... ...I don't follow you on this one.

How do IQ compare between the two? I know a prime and a zoom lens is a two very different concepts - but anyway...

"How do IQ compare between the two?"

Well, in one word: different.

Problem is you (me) can´t really compare both, side by side. Simply because they are so different. But i assure you, both are very good, each in it´s own way.
You must understand that Ricoh has it´s own IQ marks, same for Samsung.

While the IQ from the GRD3 is persistently the same, the IQ from the NX1 varies across the focal length, slightly. But that´s not all, to be more precisely, not all for me.

Most important thing beside IQ is imho the feeling of an camera. With the GRD3 you have an tool in your hands with a vast aquarel palette. Just think about customizing functions, noise settings, various focus modes, bracketing, function keys and more and more. All this with it´s prime 1.9 lens...way ahead of many other cams.

With the EX1 you get modern technique packed in perfect body, paired with very good design and gorgeous display, not to forget the sharp lens. But...and there is a big but: overall control of all those functions are quite minimalistic and very dependable of each other. Sure it has manual modes A, S, M and P (without shift). But the creative functions, when activated, blocks many other custom modes. Some users are really annoyed and have a big ? on face when camera gives no feedback about blocked modes. But people adopt quickly new situations, so anyone who likes the EX1 could and would easily forgive that issue. Even Samsung could, if they would want, address it with a slightly changed FW, but i guess for sure they won´t do that, it´s simply against they´r philosophy.

Now back again to your question about IQ. I only can tell you that both are very good, maybe the best you can get right now from any compact camera on market. Finally it´s just a matter of taste or affiliation witch one people buy. I could not resist and bought recently the EX1. My GRD3 is now soon almost 1 year old...but still in my heart.

Final words from me, both are unique cameras worth the money, and as i wrote before, GRD3 is the pencil of an artist while EX1 is the canvas to be painted
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nemo66...

I concur with this. GRD3 - none better, and I'm a Ricoh guy at heart. But bought the EX1/TL500 and was going to return it, have requested an RMA, but I'm still undecided. There is something to that camera. It is a good camera; my main issue is, do I really need another compact? I don't know, but I may end up keeping the EX1/TL500 (why can't cameras have one name!) to give it a long-term effort.

I too am frustrated by the lack of customization and how some settings disable others. Many of these relationships don't make sense.

I think the EX1/TL500 has real potential if only, for people like us, it offered more customization.

nemo6666 said:

and as i wrote before, GRD3 is the pencil of an artist while EX1 is the canvas to be painted

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I'm afraid that saying it twice make it no more comprehensible.

I think he means

iaredatsun said:

and as i wrote before, GRD3 is the pencil of an artist

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Pencils are simple and easy to use so long as you are an artist - all yiou need to do with a GRD is stick it in P mode and wave it about so long as the artistic qualities are in you to begin with (GRD 1 in B&W anyway, never used a III).

iaredatsun said:

while EX1 is the canvas to be painted

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It's hard work to get anything out (can't just stick it in P mode and wave it about like a GRD) ??? never used one either - have a G11 and a GX100 so never will probably.

that's all I could deduce from that obscure conundrum anyway

--
Please ignore the Typos, I'm the world's worst Typist

Thanks again!

You are a poet

Maybe I should try to get the adj wheel issue (freezes) fixed on my old GRD I, and buy the EX1?

The EX1 is USD 450 in Norway, the GRD III is USD 970.

I have a Leica X1 and a Olumpus PL1 on loan. They are both beauties, but the X1 does seem to be very costly... USD 2260 in Norway, the PL1 kit USD 727.

I think the X1 would be perfect for a slow walk in the streets of Paris - but for ordinary "family photography" I think the faster PL1 would do a lot better. No use in ultra high IQ if you do not catch the moment...

I do miss the old SLR viewfinder; it kind of lets you come really close to the motif, and to concentrate on the composition and to find the right moment. An LP1 with the electronic viewfinder might do it?

Eddy Teddy said:

..

I do miss the old SLR viewfinder; it kind of lets you come really close to the motif, and to concentrate on the composition and to find the right moment. An LP1 with the electronic viewfinder might do it?

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I think an external OVF is closer in terms of feel to a slr ovf . since we are talking about compacts , both the GRD and GX and EX1 let you work with external OVF

the only thing about the EX1 I do not think it lets you stop at the intermediary focal settings between 24 and 72mm other by approximation like with the Ricoh step zoom

Harold
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http://www.harold-glit.com
http://www.modelmayhem.com/haroldglit

AdamT said:

Adam-T said:

and as i wrote before, GRD3 is the pencil of an artist

Click to expand...

Pencils are simple and easy to use so long as you are an artist - all yiou need to do with a GRD is stick it in P mode and wave it about so long as the artistic qualities are in you to begin with (GRD 1 in B&W anyway, never used a III).

Adam-T said:

while EX1 is the canvas to be painted

Click to expand...

It's hard work to get anything out (can't just stick it in P mode and wave it about like a GRD) ??? never used one either - have a G11 and a GX100 so never will probably.

that's all I could deduce from that obscure conundrum anyway

Click to expand...

That's a good and clearly worded interpretation. I always thought that the original GRD was rather like both. Pencil like in simplicity and accuracy but required work to get something good. I think due to the colour advances the GRD3 probably makes much better photos straight out of the can.

iaredatsun said:

. I think due to the colour advances the GRD3 probably makes much better photos straight out of the can.

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In colour yes definately but in B&W its just another Digital camera playing at mimicking B&W along with the billions of others - BTW a cheap used GX100 is a stormer of a cam for shooting colour JPGs, knock the sharpness down to lowest and sharpen in Photoshop afterwartds - the saturation up a notch livens things up further and it's awesome - 24mm F2.5 too with (of course) zoom - proper rectilinear lens (not a software corrected fisheye like the LX3 or S90) .......

the GRD1 is special for B&W - dunno why, probably a mixture of lens, primative Ricoh Noise reduction (also lack thereof) and the noise curves of the different channels of that 8Mp sensor but its a sure fire keeper for B&W alone, I love the "Ilford delta in a 60s rangefinder then scanned" look it gives .. I'd never use it for colour though ..

iaredatsun said:

I wondered idly that he meant the GRD is like a pencil but with no paper

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Pencils can almost write on anything .. though that makes it even more confusing - LOL

--
Please ignore the Typos, I'm the world's worst Typist

AdamT said:

Adam-T said:

. I think due to the colour advances the GRD3 probably makes much better photos straight out of the can.

Click to expand...

In colour yes definately but in B&W its just another Digital camera playing at mimicking B&W along with the billions of others -

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Do you think the GX100 is the same story re. B&W? I don't like it as much as the GRD I for B&W. I haven't had it long but it can do some nice high ISO BW although more aggressive NR is evident close up. From a distance it still has quite a nice grain.

I also wonder whether it is too difficult to get good B&W and Colour in the same camera. I can only assume that the more aggressive NR in GX100 and the GRD3 makes for the advances in colour. But are there other reasons?

Adam-T said:

BTW a cheap used GX100 is a stormer of a cam for shooting colour JPGs, knock the sharpness down to lowest and sharpen in Photoshop afterwartds - the saturation up a notch livens things up further and it's awesome - 24mm F2.5 too with (of course) zoom - proper rectilinear lens (not a software corrected fisheye like the LX3 or S90) .......

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I'm a big convert with my new GX100 and I'll try your suggestions re. sharpness.

Adam-T said:

the GRD1 is special for B&W - dunno why, probably a mixture of lens, primative Ricoh Noise reduction (also lack thereof) and the noise curves of the different channels of that 8Mp sensor but its a sure fire keeper for B&W alone, I love the "Ilford delta in a 60s rangefinder then scanned" look it gives .. I'd never use it for colour though ..

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Yes. I especially love B&W at 800 and 1600 (I understand that 1600 is artificially boosted 800) . I like the GRD so much I bought a second when they were dirt cheap. I agree with the concept of primitive NR. I wish there was that option on their other GRDs.

What do you mean by the noise curves of the different channels. Are you referring to how they influence the BW look? And if so how do you think the difference contributes to BW working so well?

el (Dorado) Datsun

I had and have the same problem. Suddenly it happened. You can drop a drop or two of alcohol in the wheel. I read that the alcohol used in paint shops are best because they don't have any residue, but careful because it is toxic. At the service center, they also dropped some kind of formula and it fixed it. The service guy said bicycle oil would work also - probably the "wet" variety. It's the buildup of dust at the contact points that causes the freeze.

iaredatsun said:

Do you think the GX100 is the same story re. B&W? I don't like it as much as the GRD I for B&W.

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I don't like anything Digital as much as the GRD1 and I've seen most things, even the Sigma Foveon cams aren't as good and they get the closest (different "Film" look though)

iaredatsun said:

I also wonder whether it is too difficult to get good B&W and Colour in the same camera.

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as I said in a previous post - I think the GRD1s success in B&W is more down to the failings of the sensor, Amps and Ricoh's primitive processing than anything deliberate - the GRD-3 is "nice'n'polished" like a G11 or LX3 and good in RAW for colour , the GRD2 is just a waste of space IMO having both an awful JPG engine and very noisy in RAW .. the GX100's biggie is JPG colour at low ISOs, the 200's is shooting RAW

iaredatsun said:

What do you mean by the noise curves of the different channels. Are you referring to how they influence the BW look? And if so how do you think the difference contributes to BW working so well?

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Yep.. the sensor or and the amps are reknown for a blue / red channel noise characteristic which bodes well for B&W - totally by accident I'm sure - The GX8 is of similar age to the GRD1 and uses the same sensor but the B&W still isn't the same . must be one of those things where a pile of things, all accidental, all come into alignment ..

iaredatsun said:

el (Dorado) Datsun

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I take it you have a classic 240Z or something - Nice ......

--
Please ignore the Typos, I'm the world's worst Typist

its great for what it can do, that's for certain.
--
http://www.CarlGarrardPhotography.com
http://www.AlphaMountWorld.com

AdamT said:

Yep.. the sensor or and the amps are reknown for a blue / red channel noise characteristic which bodes well for B&W - totally by accident I'm sure - The GX8 is of similar age to the GRD1 and uses the same sensor but the B&W still isn't the same . must be one of those things where a pile of things, all accidental, all come into alignment ..

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If only there was a firmware version of the GRD I that could be uploaded to any GRD series.

Adam-T said:

I take it you have a classic 240Z or something - Nice ......

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The 240Z is a classic. Unfortunately i don't have one.

iaredatsun said:

If only there was a firmware version of the GRD I that could be uploaded to any GRD series.

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you'd need to upload the sensor and CCD Amps as well ........ This is why the GRD1 is still heavily sought after and why I'll keep one until it can't be fixed and I can't find another . a GRD1 emulation mode would have to be very very clever to not only mimick the primative processing engine at each ISO but the sensor & Amps noise and overload characteristics too ..

I'd love the GRD1 B&W in the GX100 (Or GX-R even) as well as the GX100 colour but you may as well shoot a Canon, panny or fuji as any other Ricoh ..

--
A Problem is only the pessimistic way of looking at a challenge

AdamT said:

Adam-T said:

If only there was a firmware version of the GRD I that could be uploaded to any GRD series.

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you'd need to upload the sensor and CCD Amps as well ........ This is why the GRD1 is still heavily sought after and why I'll keep one until it can't be fixed and I can't find another . a GRD1 emulation mode would have to be very very clever to not only mimick the primative processing engine at each ISO but the sensor & Amps noise and overload characteristics too ..

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I never thought about the amp in sensor design and in the design of the image itself.

It intrigues me because it means that the complexity of image design is not just based on algorithm design but also on electrical circuit design (ok I did know that) and therefore is comprised of two complex interacting systems. I think this makes me realise how difficult it is and how hard to control.

The thing I like is that it begins to feel like the complexity of chemistry in traditional photography and the potential for human intervention in the system's design at many levels. If we could tweak the electronics (i stupidly imagine a small screwdriver!) as well as the firmware we could design our own photographs instead of following what has been designed for us (the post-industrial black box).

Back down to Earth. Yes, the last GRD I on earth may one day fail due to the ADJ wheel. How long will Ricoh be able to fix them? (I have two for safety.)

iaredatsun said:

therefore is comprised of two complex interacting systems. I think this makes me realise how difficult it is and how hard to control.

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Exactly and why some Digicams will be always sought after ..

iaredatsun said:

Back down to Earth. Yes, the last GRD I on earth may one day fail due to the ADJ wheel. How long will Ricoh be able to fix them? (I have two for safety.)

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The ADJ wheel is not an issue, it can always be cleaned out with Isopropyl alcohol even if the camera needs stripping to do it - the issue is the lens unit - Ricoh lens mechs are fragile at best and downright unreliable at worst (you get the odd zoom jammed with canon, Panny, Sony or Fuji due to sand or misuse but Ricohs just die on their own) , they're also very hard to repair so when they stop making the GRD lens (that means Mk1 or 2 to us as its the same lens) then we'll have to start treating the camera more carefully.. I was always amazed that they didn't make the GRD with a fixed position lens as it's a prime in such an expensive camera, espeically given their track record for flakey lens mechs.

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A Problem is only the pessimistic way of looking at a challenge