DX vs FX

Rutgerbus

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What are the pro's and cons of an FX camera????

I have a old D80 and thinking about upgrading.

Don't know if I have to go with the FX (D700) or go for the crop-factor of a DX (D300s)

Iff I take a picture with both camera's with identical lens mounted on it...is the picture taken with FX, after cropping 1.5x, sharper then the picture taken with the DX?

In other words....does an FX camera show more detail ( I know the FX shows less noise)

Waiting for your comments,

Rutger Bus
--
http://www.wix.com/rutgerbus/photography
 
In other words....does an FX camera show more detail ( I know the FX shows less noise)
If you are going to crop the FX image to match the DX one the DX will have greater detail. You just threw away half of the detail the FX sensor captured.
Why would you do that though? Use the right lens.

I just bought a D700 (3 weeks ago) and it knocks spots of my D200 (though I guess a D300s would too). Superb low light performance, lovely colour, narrower DoF when I need it (by about 1 stop). And my beloved 17~35mm f2.8 is a wide angle lens again.

The downside is I have less reach, hence your question above does have some validity after all, but not enough to worry me.

--
http://www.andrewsandersphotography.co.uk
 
There is no practical difference between 12 MP DX and 12 MP FX using the same viewfinder crop (which means different lens focal lengths) up to 1600 ISO for a D3/700 or up to 800 for a D3s.

With the same lens from the same distance cropping FX (using DX mode) reduces MP from 12 to less than 6 MP - meaning less detail in prints bigger than about 10 inch wide.

Generally 6 MP provides as much detail as the eye can resolve in 10 inch wide prints.
--
Leonard Shepherd

Practicing and thinking can do more for good photography than buying or consuming.
 
In other words....does an FX camera show more detail ( I know the FX shows less noise)
In my experience the big plus factor of FX, aside from the improved noise performance, is the fact that FX is far more tolerant of (i) less-than-pro glass and (ii) sloppy long lens technique, both due to the physically larger pixel size. Certain lenses that are "ok" on DX really come alive on FX.

In terms of IQ, FX trumps DX in every way...and if I didn't need the reach I'd be using FX exclusively.

--

Gary -- D3, D300, D60 glass & NAS -- and a preference for wildlife in natural light
http://www.pbase.com/garyirwin
http://photographersonlinemagazine.blogspot.com
 
These two links are worth a read:
http://ezstrobesphoto.blogspot.com/2009/01/nikon-d300-vs-d700.html

http://ezstrobesphoto.blogspot.com/2009/01/tamron-28-300-on-d700-vs-nikkor-18-200.html

You can achieve the same FOF on D700 as the D300s at the cost of it becoming a D40 like camera in terms of pixels.

I had a D300 and upgraded to D700 you gain better noisie, lose video, FPS, add a grip and I'll take the D700 anyday over a D300/D300s for the superior ISO. Pixels were never an issue for me as the D40 had enough for what I ever need, but I can never have too much low noise performance.
What are the pro's and cons of an FX camera????

I have a old D80 and thinking about upgrading.

Don't know if I have to go with the FX (D700) or go for the crop-factor of a DX (D300s)

Iff I take a picture with both camera's with identical lens mounted on it...is the picture taken with FX, after cropping 1.5x, sharper then the picture taken with the DX?

In other words....does an FX camera show more detail ( I know the FX shows less noise)

Waiting for your comments,

Rutger Bus
--
http://www.wix.com/rutgerbus/photography
 
Detail would be pretty much tha same. FX has a bigger, brighter viewfinder and is a bit better in low light. The D300 is an excellent camera. Make sure you get the camera you need and don't spendva lot of money on things you don't use. Lenses are likely to be more expensive for FX, so consider that too.
 
In my experience the big plus factor of FX, aside from the improved noise performance, is the fact that FX is far more tolerant of (i) less-than-pro glass and (ii) sloppy long lens technique, both due to the physically larger pixel size. Certain lenses that are "ok" on DX really come alive on FX.
I am vey fortunate that 95% of my lenses were FX. It made my collection of lenses much more usable. Not saying that I couldn't use these lenses on all my DX cameras, I tended more to using my 17-55/2.8 and my 12-24/4 DX zooms more than my primes.
In terms of IQ, FX trumps DX in every way...and if I didn't need the reach I'd be using FX exclusively.
I tend to agree somewhat with the above statement. But I do agree that the human eye only discerns about 6 megapixels.

Regards
Terry
--
Graham Fine Art Photography
http://grahter.sasktelwebsite.net
http://gallery.reginaphotoclub.com/TGraham

Disclaimer: This e-mail is intended to impart a sense of humor. Given e-mail's inability to carry inflections, tone and facial expressions it may fail miserably in its intent. The sender acknowledges the limitations of the technology and assigns to the software in which this message was composed any ill feelings that may arise. ;-)
 
This is a topic that I hope to cover in greater detail several weeks from now after I complete some more shooting and some travels, but as a D300 and D700 owner, I of course have done some initial comparisons (I'm somewhat new to the D700, and only have put a few thousand frames on it so far, mostly in the studio)

Some early thoughts:

1) Strictly speaking, in terms of detail, if you shoot both cameras at base ISO, no, there will be no advantage to an uncropped frame from one or the other in terms of detail.

2) The quicker you move away (as in, up the ISO scale) from base ISO, the more the D700 quickly pulls away and takes the lead. This is significant as an advantage to the D700. So most of the rest of this discussion will concern both bodies at low (base) ISO - the D700 most conclusively wins the battle of the moderate/high to high ISO's and it's not close. Just so we're clear :)

3) At base ISO, on my preliminary outdoor tests, there is very, very little difference at least on my one test scene, between the D300 and D700. No grand image quality difference, no magic, no mythical qualities became evident - both images were so close that I'd lay cash down that 99.999% of the folks on these forums could never tell which image came from which camera

4) At base ISO, in my studio comparisons, there is more difference between the two bodies than in my outdoor test but the differences again were not dramatic in nature. The D700's greatest advantage was slightly cleaner shadows and continuous toned things like studio backdrops - this was a noticeable, if slight difference. More subtly, I felt the D700 had slightly better tonal transitions throughout the skin tone range and slightly better highlight control, but again, these are small differences - in magnitude they are less than the difference between going from a good to an excellent lens. No dramatic magic, no mythical stupendous blow your socks off image quality advantage here once again - both bodies were close, although I do give a slight edge to the D700 in subtle ways.

5) All this being said, the base ISO D700 files are much more malleable in post process. If you miss exposure a bit and need to bring it up, the D700 file will take it better. You simply can "abuse" the D700 files more than the D300 files; the D300 really needs to be shot spot on to deliver it's best quality and it does take a bit of tweaking - custom curve based picture control, careful sharpening setting, careful exposure. This may very well make a huge difference to some folks and dramatically push them to a D700.

6) Agree about the D700 being "gentler" on lenses once you get past corner/edge sharpness performance issues. The D300, due to it's pixel density, seems to show greater differences between lenses in the center zone than the D700. Truly excellent lenses are needed to shine on the D300, while on the D700 a lens that is decent in the corners (not all are) will "behave" better.

7) My thoughts on the human eye and 6mp and that bit: Disagree. When I went from D70/D100 class to my D2X, the difference in resolution wasn't so much in detail, which was improved, but rather, definite improvements in tonality - simply more bits to work with. Amd it's visible easily on an 8x10" print.

8) D700 is a truly joyous camera to work with - it's bigger/brighter viewfinder, faster initial AF acquisition versus D300 and slightly less lag time (particularly in the 14 bit raw mode a D300 slows down a bit in, which is needed for best quality) make it simply a better camera than the D300 if the ability of the camera to be an extension of your vision is important. This may - or may not - allow you to get the shot better if you're in a situation where you need to process what you see and react. In a landscape situation - this may not be relevant at all - but as a studio shooter who shoots a lot of imrov and free-form movement, it's huge - being able to see better, and react better, makes for better shots - irrespective of whether the image quality is the same, worse, or better. Don't discount this. It is in this regard that I now understand the popularity of the D700 with it's owners - it's a very, very flexible camera that can do almost anything asked of it - it can shoot in any light, is fast, and produces really gorgeous, film-like files. There may be cameras that produce more edgier/snappier files that might be a bit more "digital like", but between it's ergonomics and image quality, I definitely see why the D700 is so popular.

9) But this myth that at base ISO the D700 totally smokes the D300 is, so far, to my eyes, not true. In the studio there are some advantages to the D700 file that I like better, and they are visible, but the magnitude of this difference aren't as dramatic as some people make it out to be. As for outdoor scenes, in the next few weeks I hope to put the bodies through some conditions where I can see if I see any subtle/moderate/dramatic advantages to the D700 at base ISO - my first initial tests didn't show it on the outdoor scene, which so far put's me into Romans camp of saying that for a landscape shooter getting better glass, tripod/ballhead, training, or simply spending the money to go to locations to shoot instead of to collect gear and never use it anywhere cool, make more sense than automatically going FX just because it's trendy and a bunch of folks in the forums do it. Remember that magazine pro Bob Krist shoots DX and I bet he can outshoot most of us stone cold.

Sorry for the amount of text - and hopefully in a month or so I'll have more to say once I shoot the D700 some more outside, which I've not done as much as I'd like so far.

-m
 
8) D700 is a truly joyous camera to work with - it's bigger/brighter viewfinder, faster initial AF acquisition versus D300 and slightly less lag time (particularly in the 14 bit raw mode a D300 slows down a bit in, which is needed for best quality) make it simply a better camera than the D300 if the ability of the camera to be an extension of your vision is important. This may - or may not - allow you to get the shot better if you're in a situation where you need to process what you see and react. In a landscape situation - this may not be relevant at all - but as a studio shooter who shoots a lot of imrov and free-form movement, it's huge - being able to see better, and react better, makes for better shots - irrespective of whether the image quality is the same, worse, or better. Don't discount this.
Well stated. I'd like to emphatically second this point.

I love the D700 for its size and heft, too. I have big hands (oddly outsized for my 5'8" frame) and the D700 feels like it was made for them.
 
Anothermike's summary of D300 vs D700 was one of the best pieces I've read here in a while.

Although I never had a D300 specifically, I've read countless times about blue sky noise with that chip, and as a former D200 user, I've had my share on that body. And we're talking base ISO shots without a heavy PS hand.
D700's a dream. Nearly perfect.
--
Eric
http://www.pbase.com/cerumen
http://www.insectography.com
 
Per Thom Hogan

"What's the best overall camera body? This came up in one email conversation. The emailer said D700. I say D300."

http://www.bythom.com/

"Every camera design is a range of compromises. In looking at my use statistics the D700 is the least used of my Nikon prosumer/pro bodies (if I were a wedding or event shooter that statistic might be different). The D300 is a little smaller, has a wider AF array, has higher pixel density, and basically all the features of the D700 (and these days, with the D300s, has some features the D700 doesn't have, like dual card slots and video)."

I'd say I agree :-)

D
 
As an owner of both, I'd disagree. Thom is looking at it from a landscape perspective - but not every shooter out here is strictly a landscape shooter.

What the D700 allows one to do is shoot in pretty much any type of lighting or situation and come away with a good shot. It is the DSLR that I strongly feel allows one to put the concentration back to the photography, the images, instead of the gear, by virtue of it's flexibility in different types of shooting and it's image quality across a broader spectrum of scenarios than the D300 can manage.

Not that the D300 is a bad camera - it's clearly not - but for the generalist who does more than landscape, the D700 is a camera you can live with for a long time. The D300 frankly has limitations that creep up on you over time. That's the difference - again, speaking as someone who does more things than just landscape.

-m
 
The only difference is one has a sensor twice as big. If the pixel area is the same (e.g. 24mp for FX and 12 for DX), and the tech is the same, then the noise will be the same (when viewed at 1:1 pixel mode). If the total number of pixels is the same, then FX will have about a stop advantage in light gathering capability (which is useful for either stopping motion or lowlight).

What complicates things is the fact that each has different lenses available. For example, a DX camera with a Tamron 17-50 F/2.8 VC can take pictures with less noise than any (currently available) FX lens when handheld shooting static scenes. This is because there are no decent image-stabilized midrange zooms for FX, and image stabilization can more than make up for the greater light gathering capability of the FX sensor by taking pictures with a much longer shutter time. Once Nikon (or someone) makes a good mid-range fast zoom with image stabilization, then the greater light gathering capability can be exploited in the same situations.

But that's just one situation. For long range shooting (say, with a 300mm lens), the FX lens can usually use twice the shutter speed (very useful for shooting sports). An FX camera with a 14-24mm F/2.8 can take ultra-wide pics with a higher shutter speed (or with less noise) than any DX camera (even with the Tokina 11-16mm F/2.8).

So, in theory, the FX camera can either give you more pixels, or one stop better low-light performance, or some compromise, but in practice the lens choices mean it isn't so clear cut.

Ignore the BS about ultra-high ISO (like the D3s). You can't ignore physics, ISO 6400 on the D3s will be similar in quality to a D300s at ISO 3200, all else being equal. Nikon just chose to allow the ISO to climb even higher (at the expense of noise). If they choose, they could make the D400 (or whatever the D300 replacement will be) go to ISO 1,024,000 or something ridiculous. That doesn't mean that pictures taken at that ISO will be useful for anything other than postage stamps! :) Being FX doesn't change the physics, for a given sensor tech, the best that FX will give you in the high ISO range is IQ one stop better (one stop less noisy).

And that doesn't even begin to include the discussion on crop factor for shooting long (where a Nikon 600mm F/4 shooting DX is more like a FX camera shooting a 900mm lens).

So does that make you more confused? :)
 
Well said, and I'm certainly not knocking fx, it's just that I can live with the lesser low light capability and love the crop factor. I've got a 300 2.8 ordered for my D300. Man, that's a 450 on fx....., oh that's right you'd have to settle for a 400 if you want to get in the same range on fx....and pay.....quite a few dollars more.

And when the next gen dx cameras come out and we see the low light shooting improve, I'm gonna be lovin it even more!

I think the delimma is not if Nikon can improve noise on DX, it's if that is a smart thing to do, marketing wise!

Improve it too much and I think you will see a lot of FX birders and sports shooters go back to DX.

Best,

Don
 
I'm gonna take a wild stab at the dark and say you've never shot a D3S. It's a heck of a lot more than one stop better than a D300 at high ISO, whether you like it or not. Sorry....

Now - granted, if Nikon/Sony/whoever made a modern DX chip with the sensor technology in the D3S chip, it would be a lot closer than it is, but right now, there is a pretty distinct chasm between the D3S and the D300 in terms of high ISO performance in real life situations.

-m
 
I'm still shooting a horrible ole D300 :)

The D700 in and of itself is not all that enticing to me. But if you believe Thom Hogan, I might get excited over the replacement D700 later this year (the D3S sensor in a D700 body) just on its low-light merits!

David - a Denver (formerly Atlanta) Nikonian
 
As an owner of both, I'd disagree. Thom is looking at it from a landscape perspective - but not every shooter out here is strictly a landscape shooter.

What the D700 allows one to do is shoot in pretty much any type of lighting or situation and come away with a good shot. It is the DSLR that I strongly feel allows one to put the concentration back to the photography, the images, instead of the gear, by virtue of it's flexibility in different types of shooting and it's image quality across a broader spectrum of scenarios than the D300 can manage.

Not that the D300 is a bad camera - it's clearly not - but for the generalist who does more than landscape, the D700 is a camera you can live with for a long time. The D300 frankly has limitations that creep up on you over time. That's the difference - again, speaking as someone who does more things than just landscape.

-m
You bring up a few good points that I will attempt to add my 2¢ to..

First off, what is right for Thom is not necessarily right for all other people. The small difference in grams or centimetres from a D300 to a D700 will be less important for many than the difference of being able to or not being able to handhold a camera in fading light for instance. He mentioned something about using the D700 for weddings or events, my guess is that this is something that doesn't come up often for him. I could be wrong about this but I doubt it.

You also mentioned something about D700 files being "malleable", this, I absolutely agree with. It's been mentioned here before many times, from sharpening to contrast adjustments, the lifting of shadows etc., I for one am able to do more in less time with a 14 bit D700 file than I was ever able to do with D50 or D90 raw files. With better results too.

Then there's the whole perspective issue. I want a short telephoto to be a true short telephoto not a center crop only lens where I'm standing at a different distance than I want to be. I suppose a whole new line of lenses could be developed for 35mm DX equivalence. Then we can all have two sets of lenses for everything, umm, no thanks...

And of course Thom apparently sees little value in a higher quality video for Nikon dslrs even though the technology is so close they'd be foolish not to continue development at this point. I was at a good zoo this last weekend observing a large male African leopard, absloutely a beautiful specimen. Had the D700 out trying to get a few snaps through the cage when the leopard got down on its haunches @100% attention, tail wagging, in full attack mode. Strangely, the only thing I could see afterwords in the general direction of where he was looking was a small child on the other side of the cage, alone. Unless there was a bird or something else that I didn't notice. So would have I liked to have been able to switch over to moving picture mode with the push of a couple buttons instead of fumbling around in the backpack for a camcorder? Yep, absolutely.
 
I'm gonna take a wild stab at the dark and say you've never shot a D3S. It's a heck of a lot more than one stop better than a D300 at high ISO, whether you like it or not. Sorry....

Now - granted, if Nikon/Sony/whoever made a modern DX chip with the sensor technology in the D3S chip, it would be a lot closer than it is, but right now, there is a pretty distinct chasm between the D3S and the D300 in terms of high ISO performance in real life situations.

-m
That wouldn't surprise me, even if the gains were mostly in the noise reduction algorithms or the analog amplification circuitry (to reduce noise when the ISO amplification is applied).

That's a good question on the DX sensor quality, we'll see if Nikon chooses to port their D3S tech to the DX format in the D400 (or whatever it is).

But, given the same sensor technology , FX should be about a 1 stop advantage, if the resolution is kept the same.
 
Pro FX vs DX: Better signal to noise ratio, bigger viewfinder

Con FX vs DX: You will find that many lenses have vignetting and poor corner sharpness on FX

If you're not prepared to update your lenses, stay with DX.

--
Regards,

Fred Kamphues
http://www.millhouse.nl
 

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