Pro's: What Pays?

Good photographer, sometimes great, wishes to be great consistently...

Always loved photography and have been shooting since a kid in the mid-70's (at that time, with a Practika). Going from Semi-Pro (Pro maybe once a month) to Full-Pro is coming from both passion and necessity: I've lost the substantial wealth I once possessed before the economic downturn. At this point, I'd prefer to be happy than kill myself trying to earn it back. Photography makes me happy - even if turned into a business.

I'm good with people, kids, abstracts. I'm endeavoring to learn studio light. I possess the right equipment and have "the eye" that can't be taught. Now, I'd like to study toward making money. Yes, tough craft to find the right pay in this climate, but I'm going to invest myself and time into an area so I can own that area. Be great.

Events, maybe. Portrait photography, sure. Abstracts, who pays? Stock photography, don't know a thing about it - yet. Maybe a combination. I'm asking... what areas pay regardless of what it provides an artist's soul?

Please, answer only if you have the proper experience; this is a serious topic to my future. Of course, by "pays" I mean pays well. (I live in Los Angeles)

Weddings pay, usually a lot. But you must know that most photographers should really have a day job. Photography is good and fun, but it's hardly pays two pennies when you're just starting out. Commercial photography pays pretty good too, if you can find the right job or someone willing to give you a chance at it.

Good luck!

steven barnes said:

Good photographer, sometimes great, wishes to be great consistently...

Always loved photography and have been shooting since a kid in the mid-70's (at that time, with a Practika). Going from Semi-Pro (Pro maybe once a month) to Full-Pro is coming from both passion and necessity: I've lost the substantial wealth I once possessed before the economic downturn. At this point, I'd prefer to be happy than kill myself trying to earn it back. Photography makes me happy - even if turned into a business.

I'm good with people, kids, abstracts. I'm endeavoring to learn studio light. I possess the right equipment and have "the eye" that can't be taught. Now, I'd like to study toward making money. Yes, tough craft to find the right pay in this climate, but I'm going to invest myself and time into an area so I can own that area. Be great.

Events, maybe. Portrait photography, sure. Abstracts, who pays? Stock photography, don't know a thing about it - yet. Maybe a combination. I'm asking... what areas pay regardless of what it provides an artist's soul?

Please, answer only if you have the proper experience; this is a serious topic to my future. Of course, by "pays" I mean pays well. (I live in Los Angeles)

Click to expand...

--
John Tatyosian
Check out my site: http://sites.google.com/site/JTatyosian

Starting a 'photography only' business takes quite a lot of efforts and sacrifices…

Try embedding your passion and skills for photography inside an added value proposition which targets a corporate market, in general more lucrative on a per contract basis than private assignments.

You seem to have good writing skills. Maybe you could learn how to develop websites (Google Joomla it’s pretty easy with lots of support) or team up with someone who knows and focus on a commercial niche that you know about, perhaps something in line with what you used to do. Proposing to create a complete website, not only the container (everybody does it) but the actual contents, including texts and some beautiful photographs of the people, locations and objects that are meaningful to the customer is well worth a good amount of dollars to many small and medium size businesses anywhere.

From there, you will be getting private assignments from the people you deal with and referrals for other corporate assignments, with the added thrill of discovering new business segments that you may appreciate learning about.

Here is one such customer, a Construction Company (I know nothing about construction) for who I am developing a complete Website (in French), along with pictures and 360 VR Tours...

http://www.constructionsfrancoisdemuy.com/joomla/

I’m an ex CEO in the IT business and this is what I do since I sold my company in 2003 and… I really love it!

Good luck,

Michel

--
M. J.
D3 + a bunch of lenses, lights and accessories, NPS Member

The crew at the podcast This Week and Photography said something around episode 39 about wedding photography. It really stuck with me.

Basically, it went like this:

The landscape and macro and all sorts of other photographers go to camera stores, pick up and play with the hardware, imagine what they could do with it, then put it down, and say thanks to the clerk.

The wedding photographer walks into the story, picks up and plays with the hardware, imagine what they could do with it, then puts in in their bag, hands the clerk the visa, and puts it to work the next day. That's because they're actually making real money off their photography.

I have found this to be true myself. I am a newspaper editor/reporter and on the side a pro photographer. I shot weddings for several years, and then events for several years - primarily sports tournaments. This is not get rich photography. I am in a small town in rural Saskatchewan, Canada. I used to do pretty decently with the sports, but found over the past two months that if I was doing that for my main income, I would have lost my truck by now for lack of making the payments. Continual rainouts tremendously cut into my work. My tournament two weeks ago was cancelled, and last weekend was just about cancelled. I basically learned not to rely on outdoor sports for income.

Weddings, on the other hand, typically will go rain or shine. I did not have a wedding called off, and even if I did, one third of my pay was a non-refundable deposit.

As such, as much as I really don't want to get back into weddings, I am seriously considering it, because they are pretty much a sure thing.

Another thing to consider: no matter what people say about the economy, people are born every year, grow up, and eventually, almost all get married. It's almost as sure a thing as death and taxes. Undertakers have a pretty much assured business - they'll get everyone, eventually. So will the wedding industry.

On any given weekend, especially in the summer, in any given town or city, there is a wedding in nearly every church. That's an opportunity for you nearly every week. There might only be a few fashion or commercial shoots going on at that time, but there may be hundreds of weddings, depending on the size of the communities.

The downside of weddings is it takes a few years to get established in a market, and depending how far in advance you take bookings, a few years to get out of. You can't just abandon clients you booked and took deposits on 18 months from now because you decided to move to Toledo. Or at least, you shouldn't.

Hope that helps.

Zinchuk
http://www.zinchuk.ca

It may sound trite, but what revs you will rev your clients and build a specialty for you that will sustain your business. What do you love to shoot, and can do for unusual lengths of time...and still love it? Chances are, there lies you answer! Weddings can be lucrative, but are serious business with pretty long hours if you are just in it for the $$! If light revs you, then you're a pretty versatile photographer...best regards!

You'll Make More flipping burgers at Mickey-D today than as a newbie professional photographer without direction or experience. Honestly. Regardless of what some non professionals are sure to post below me, this is not the time to try and make a living at photoghraphy with little experience or connections. (I have been a full time pro at this for over 30 years.)

Reason? Too many amateurs shooting and willing to give work away. The profession suffers as a result. Sure, some continue to make big money due to talent, a niche, luck, perseverance; but by and large you aren't gonna make it today as a professional in photography coming out of the blue, at least for a few years.

Weddings? Right! Its a hard market that requires a huge investment in gear, personnel, experience and marketing. Only the top wedding togs make $2K a wedding. You'll be competing with CraigsList ads offering day long services for $300. You have enough resources to carry you 3-5 years until you establish a reputation and market to get above that?

Its like anything else really, there are no shortcuts to success in business. if you have the time and wherewithall to invest , maybe you can make it. As a quick change of direction, I'd forget it.

steven barnes said:

Events, maybe. Portrait photography, sure. Abstracts, who pays? Stock photography, don't know a thing about it - yet. Maybe a combination. I'm asking... what areas pay regardless of what it provides an artist's soul?

Please, answer only if you have the proper experience; this is a serious topic to my future. Of course, by "pays" I mean pays well. (I live in Los Angeles)

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Steve,

Event coverage can be somewhat lucrative once you develope a reputation, its actually one of my specialties, but it takes time. Portrait photography without understanding lighting? Forget that, its all about lighting. Abstract? I assume you mean fine art. Good luck with that! Stock sucks today as every newb sells work for free on micro stock sites and the big guys like Comstock and Getty ain't what they once were.

I'm really not trying to burst your bubble, just trying to give you an incite into the realities of turning pro today. Its hard work that takes time to develope. Once again, if you have the time and resources, go for it. If you're broke and need income today, I'd look elsewhere for a living.

I'd second the weddings angle. It pays, sometimes a lot ... but you have to love it and you absolutely have to be good. Most of the business at first comes from referrals, and you are not going to get any of those if you can't produce. So. Where to start? How about volunteering as an assistant to a pro in your neighborhood. You'll find out pretty fast if it's the kind of work you can stomach. We are talking 14 hour days here ... sometimes without much of a break. It wears out your gear too. You can easily shoot 2000 images per wedding and after a season, your shutter has 50K clicks easy. Sure you can write all that stuff off, but you have to have the money to pay for it in the first place.

FWIW, I'm a weekend warrior wedding and family photog in a saturated market. Yes it's tough, but I love it. My day job pays the bills. The photog money pays for the gear and what is left goes towards the mortgage. I considered going full-time, but in my situation I found that it was just not feasible.

Good luck!

If you could cut out the ten years it takes to establish yourself and learn the business, then what pays best is top end advertising and fashion work. But only a few ever make it and its just as hard to stay there as to get there in the first place.

Weddings, events and corporate work can pay the bills...once you are established.

In terms of art photographers, then only a few scratch a living mainly from running courses and publishing books or prostituting themselves to certain manufacturers for free gear.

If you want to make money, then just do the math.

Lets say you need to make $6000 a month profit before tax. If you do weddings at $2000 a time and you have a full order book (every weekend) then you can do pretty well even after you write off the cost of equipment, production (albums, prints, cards and insurance. However, starting out with no portfolio, experience or reputation you would be lucky to get $300 a wedding, and even luckier if you got paid at all. After messing up someones big day you may even end up in court. Its very very hard work and you would be well advised to spend a year or two assisting before venturing out on your own.

A better course potentially is to do corporate work (prints for brochures, stockholder reports and company websites). However, most companies have a marketing dept, and to get on their books you will need a decent portfolio. For smaller businesses, you could get away with hiring some models and doing some location shoots to build up a portfolio to show them what you can do, and marketing direct.

If you do portrait work and portfolios for normal people, you can charge the average customer around $300 for a session. That means you will need to book 30 clients a month to make your $6000 profit by the time you have taken studio and other costs into account. 30 clients a month requires a LOT of marketing.

If you are a top professional of course, you do fewer clients for more cash and let your agent do the marketing, but you also have to hire makeup artists, stylists and probably an assistant, plus you have the costs of running a studio (rent, equipment etc). Also, to get any clients at all you need a strong reputation in a certain industry, like modelling, acting or music, where people constantly need publicity material and you can work for an agent or record label who represents top artists, but again it will take a few years to build up a rep.

The other option is to make photography part of your offering, not the whole deal. Areas where images are used as part of a product include web design, travel and journalism. I even know of an interior designer who makes her own prints for each home she does. Conceivably these are jobs you can do as a one-man outfit as well. However as with everything else you need a portfolio first before anyone will take you seriously.

steven barnes said:

Good photographer, sometimes great, wishes to be great consistently...

Always loved photography and have been shooting since a kid in the mid-70's (at that time, with a Practika). Going from Semi-Pro (Pro maybe once a month) to Full-Pro is coming from both passion and necessity: I've lost the substantial wealth I once possessed before the economic downturn. At this point, I'd prefer to be happy than kill myself trying to earn it back. Photography makes me happy - even if turned into a business.

I'm good with people, kids, abstracts. I'm endeavoring to learn studio light. I possess the right equipment and have "the eye" that can't be taught. Now, I'd like to study toward making money. Yes, tough craft to find the right pay in this climate, but I'm going to invest myself and time into an area so I can own that area. Be great.

Events, maybe. Portrait photography, sure. Abstracts, who pays? Stock photography, don't know a thing about it - yet. Maybe a combination. I'm asking... what areas pay regardless of what it provides an artist's soul?

Please, answer only if you have the proper experience; this is a serious topic to my future. Of course, by "pays" I mean pays well. (I live in Los Angeles)

Click to expand...

--
Regards,
Steve

I've been in and out over the years. Generally, when in, I make a reaonable amount but, find that the business aspects take over your life and photography becomes just a job.

Weddings are lucrative but, you will be meeting with clients in the evenings and the wedding itself eats your weekends.

--
EXIF is embedded in photos
WSSA* 51 as bg5700
My camera club porfolio: http://www.pacameraclub.com/bgrant.htm
Zenfolio site - http://www.puntagordanaturally.com
RF Stock Portfolio - http://www.dreamstime.com/resp129611

Conspicuously absent from this discussion is the element of "how good is your photography"

Putting out a shingle that says "wedding", or "corporate" or "pet" photographer might get your first job....but the second is dependant upon how good the first one was done..

Thank you Michel; your reply was quite thoughtful. I will check out your designed website.

Great advice Zinchuck. Thank you for the thought-laden reply.

everything if your good enough
--
is there money in this

Thank you HP, for your candidness and time. I wonder if you may have missed, or I misstated my level of talent: over 30 years behind an SLR and quite good, wanting to be great and realizing I should invest that energy in less than every direction.

I can spend time building a business, and schmooze well... but the reality is what it is and that includes drastic undercutting of prices, to be sure. But HP, that's in every business. There's an old adage: you can offer PRICE, QUALITY, SERVICE - pick one or three and you'll fail, pick any two and you'll have a shot.

Regards,
Steven

Apologies. Certainly a valid question. I thought I mentioned I'm good and sometimes great, wanting to be great as much as good. As a Semi-Pro, I do receive referrals from past clients.

Cheers
Steven

Even the well known, famous ones---exp John Shaw--- make threir living conducting workshops, classes. Very few--you can count them with fingers of one hand-- survive by selling pictures alone.
--
The Lightmagician
Sun is my eye
Winds my breaths
Sky my open Mind.
http://www.lightmagical.com

Hi Steven,

I've been active in the microstock market for 3.5 years. First year was a learning experience, and just a few grand in earnings, but each year since I've done quite a bit better.

It won't ever replace my day job, but I can buy any gear I want (within reason, of course) and I've learned more about light than I had in the previous 20 years as a pure amateur.

One advantage of the the micro market is that I can put in as little or as much effort as I want, and at 11 am or 11 pm. Once an image starts to sell, it can become a revenue producer for years. I'm still making money off old D70 shots from 2006.

If you're interested, feel free to contact me directly off my email in profile for more information.
--
Eric
http://www.pbase.com/cerumen
http://www.insectography.com

Remember that there will always be pessimists. The economy is down, the world is coming to an end. It's never going to be the way it was.

Yet somehow, people continue to make a living. Usually it's by specializing, finding a niche they can do better than everyone else.

I'm reminded of a story. A farmer had a little produce stand at the farmgate along the road, selling vegetables. He had a little sign that said vegetables for sales. People would drive along and stop, and buy his vegetables. But then his son came home from the big city and told him, "Dad! The economy's going down the drain! No one can afford vegetables anymore! You'll never be able to sell vegetables the way you used to. Everyone's losing their jobs. Take down your sign!"

So he did.

Then his sales plummetted, and everything went down the tube.

After a while, he realized, this isn't helping any, so he put his sign back up, ignored what his son said, and put his produce out.

The next day he was selling vegetables again.

The moral - someone will always tell you you can't do it. You need to assert for yourself that you can.

For instance - If I was shooting film, I simply could not do what I do today. I go to a tournament, shoot 2,200 frames in a day, display them on four laptops within 15 minutes of shooting, and take 30-40 orders in a Saturday, sometimes more. All the people who say "oh, well, nothing pays like it used to," doesn't affect me, because I never did what THEY used to. I do what I do NOW. I found a niche that I can do, with technology that didn't hardly exist 7-10 years ago, when they USED to do whatever THEY did. There's no way they could do that in film days.

I picked up a small Sony Snaplab event printer the other day. It cost $1100. I bought a small battery pack used for camping or emergency power - $200. Then I put them in my kids' wagon and take them to each soccer practice. I shoot the other team's players, and at half time, show the parents. I print them right there, selling bordered high quality dye-sub 4x6s for $15 each. So far, every time I go out, I average about $110 for 1.5 hours work. It's not great, but I'm there anyhow.

I doubt any of the old warhorses who have done this for umpteen years did anything like that.

The key thing is to find your competitive advantage. For me, for sports photography, shooting with pro gear means I can take the pictures that few, if anyone else there, can. This is especially true indoors, where a D700 with pro glass and strobing the entire arena makes all the difference. My competitive advantage is physics. When I click the shutter, the whole rink goes FOOMP. No one else is going to be able to get that shot unless they spend an hour setting up lighiting like I did. They will get good shots with a high ISO camera, but they will never get MY shots.

Some may say everyone has a camera these days, so no one can make money with theirs as a pro. But the reason everyone has a camera is because everyone wants pictures. You just have to ensure that whatever pictures you take, yours are an order of magnitude better than what Joe Public and his iPhone or Canon Rebel can take.

Zinchuk

steven barnes said:

Good photographer, sometimes great, wishes to be great consistently...

Click to expand...

By which measure did you determine that you are 'sometimes great'?

Your statement indicates you are in need of a 'Reality Check'.

steven barnes said:

Always loved photography and have been shooting since a kid in the mid-70's (at > that time, with a Practika).

Click to expand...

steven barnes said:

Going from Semi-Pro (Pro maybe once a month) to Full-Pro is coming from both > passion and necessity:

Click to expand...

IMHO you can't turn 'Pro' on and off. Either you are a Pro or not.
Perhaps you mean 'paid' and 'not paid'.

steven barnes said:

I've lost the substantial wealth I once possessed before the economic
downturn.

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Many people have lost 'substantial wealth' but most of it was only on paper.

steven barnes said:

At this point, I'd prefer to be happy than kill myself trying to earn it back.
Photography makes me happy - even if turned into a business.

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What do you mean by 'even if turned into a business'?

steven barnes said:

I'm good with people, kids, abstracts.

Click to expand...

People photography is where most of the 'accessible' money is.

steven barnes said:

I'm endeavoring to learn studio light. I possess the right equipment and
have "the eye" that can't be taught.

Click to expand...

Again, you sound in need of a 'reality check'.

steven barnes said:

Now, I'd like to study toward making money.

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No such thing.

A music student does not study 'toward making money'.

I'd bet money was the last thing on young Jimmy Hendrix's mind
when he started to learn to play the guitar.

The same holds true with photography.

steven barnes said:

Yes, tough craft to find the right pay in this climate,

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Craft or Art is debatable.

steven barnes said:

but I'm going to invest myself and time into an area so I can own that area. Be great.

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IMHO being great does not come from a possessive outlook of things.
Maybe infamous but not great, IMHO.

steven barnes said:

Events, maybe. Portrait photography, sure. Abstracts, who pays? Stock photography, don't know a thing about it - yet. Maybe a combination. I'm asking... what areas pay regardless of what it provides an artist's soul?

Please, answer only if you have the proper experience;

Click to expand...

Caution sign: The good student realizes it is not for him to ask a question and then stipulate a required level of knowledge of those kind enough to respond.

steven barnes said:

this is a serious topic to my future. Of course, by "pays" I mean pays well. (I live in Los Angeles)

Click to expand...

Two more reality checks that you need.

steven barnes said:

hquestindicating

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I hope you find value in this as my intent is to be helpful in responding to your request.