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The need for Pentax TS lenses

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Rod McD

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Hi folks,

Time and again photographers in this forum are sharing their shots of wonderful places and architecture. It's one of my passions as well when I travel, as is wilderness landscape photography. I can't help thinking that we'd be better equipped if Pentax released tilt and shift lenses as other brands have done. They're about the only lens type totally missing from the range that might tempt me to look elsewhere.

Canon's TSE and Nikon's PCE offerings are tempting, if expensive. Pentax used to make a good 28mm shift lens, (though unfortunately it didn't tilt), so they've got the optical expertise and with some development could give us a T & S lens. A factor right now would be whether it would be intended to cover APS or FF - perhaps a reason they haven't gone down this road so far........ If they aren't going to produce an FF camera, then they should be looking at giving us a TS lens dedicated to APS sensors. (I'd vote for a 16mm to give 24mm equivalent FOV). If they are going FF, then I'd wait.

I know that you can achieve some (though not all) of the shift effects in PP, but you can't achieve the tilting effect. I also know that you can buy adaptors to give you tilt & shift on K mount with a 645 or 6X6 lens, but this is of limited use on an APSC sensor.

Anyone else see this as an omission in the lens range??

Cheers, Rod
 
There are solutions for shift of course, but on APS-C they are too narrow.

Personally I have an old but excellent Pentax K28/3.5 Shift. It works, but it's a bit big and too standard to be really useful.

Currently I actually use my DA15 for shift. You may find this strange, but I am an advocate for the square image crop. When using the DA15 in portrait orientation I can keep the back of the camera parallel with a building and have the entire building fit in the frame fairly easily provided I can take some distance and the building isn't too high. From the image I crop the top square and I get a nice perspective correct image. The DA15 has fairly minimal distortion to allow for this, and the IQ in the corners is OK too (with some PP in contrasty situations).

But I agree, a nice wide TS lens would be a great addition to the line-up. DA16T/S would be nice, but I would even settle for a DA18T/S.

For longer T/S lenses I'm currently thinking of recycling some old 6x7 lenses...

Wim

--
Belgium, GMT+1

 
Ishpuini said:
Currently I actually use my DA15 for shift. You may find this strange, but I am an advocate for the square image crop. When using the DA15 in portrait orientation I can keep the back of the camera parallel with a building and have the entire building fit in the frame fairly easily provided I can take some distance and the building isn't too high. From the image I crop the top square and I get a nice perspective correct image. The DA15 has fairly minimal distortion to allow for this, and the IQ in the corners is OK too (with some PP in contrasty situations).
Click to expand...
I've done this a couple times with my 16-45. I don't shoot a lot of buildings so it's all I would ever need.

As to a new T/S lens I wouldn't hold my breathe. It would be a very specialized item and the demand for one of these in K mount would be so low that I doubt Pentax could justify the cost...

--
Keith...

Look at the picture, not the pixels...
http://www.lkeithr.zenfolio.com
 
Ishpuini said:
Currently I actually use my DA15 for shift. You may find this strange, but I am an advocate for the square image crop. When using the DA15 in portrait orientation I can keep the back of the camera parallel with a building and have the entire building fit in the frame fairly easily provided I can take some distance and the building isn't too high. From the image I crop the top square and I get a nice perspective correct image. The DA15 has fairly minimal distortion to allow for this, and the IQ in the corners is OK too (with some PP in contrasty situations).
Click to expand...
Not quite shifting but accomplishes the same goal. Shifting allows for more extreme corrections without having to have a ladder for your camera.

It's the same reason why K-7's composition adjust is not the same as moving the tripod over:

http://wkoopmans.ca/notebook/?p=1497
 
The problem is that it would cost a lot for Pentax to develop (on an R&D budget we can safely assume is quite limited since the DA* telephoto primes are basically the equivalent film-era lenses with the new SDM, WR etc. added.), and would then cost so much that very few people would ever buy it.. Though it is a gap in the lens lineup it probably isn't one that makes good business sense for Pentax to attempt to fill.
 
I would never afford one. Instead I use a software called ShiftN to correct the perspective. As for the tilt function, I need to rely on Photoshop to mimic it.
 
It is extremely unlikely that Pentax would release any such lens. It is most suitable for a FF camera, which has an advantage for wider angle and a shift lens for FF can make it more effective. As for the FF, forget it.
 
Pentax does not have many reasons to introduce a TS lens, given the options photographers have today.
  • Those who need TS already have Canon/Nikon/MF/LF systems. It would be hopeless te try to capture parts of the pro market without a significant TS lineup and probably also a FF camera.
  • There is already K-mount TS lenses from Arax, Hartblei and Schneider and there seems to be minimal interest for these lenses as it is. I dont think Ive ever seen them put to use here in the forum or in the PPG.
  • It is possible to achieve the effect of shift using PP, and the results are very good.
  • You can buy a Sigma 8-16, shoot it level and crop out the bottom. Like PP it does cost some resolution, but there is still plenty of detail for non-advertising sized prints, web, real estate agent use etc. This allows for even more extreme corrections than a Canon 17 TS-E used at max shift, but does not allow for tilt.
  • Tilt is not needed on small APS-C sensors to get the entire image in focus.
  • Using tilt for selective focus is difficult given the small APS-C sensors in Pentax DSLRs, especially when considering the small max aperture TS lenses generally have.
  • Making that tilted miniaturization effect is something Pentax cannot do, but really, that is a gimmick and Pentax has a much bigger need for other lenses (fast wide, longer tele, SDM TC etc.).
--
My Flickr:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/36164047@N06/
 
godfrog said:
Pentax does not have many reasons to introduce a TS lens, given the options photographers have today.
  • Those who need TS already have Canon/Nikon/MF/LF systems. It would be hopeless te try to capture parts of the pro market without a significant TS lineup and probably also a FF camera.
  • There is already K-mount TS lenses from Arax, Hartblei and Schneider and there seems to be minimal interest for these lenses as it is. I dont think Ive ever seen them put to use here in the forum or in the PPG.
Click to expand...
Problem is that these optics are hard to come by, manual focus, and overly expensive for non-OEM.
godfrog said:
  • It is possible to achieve the effect of shift using PP, and the results are very good.
Click to expand...
What you mean to say is it is possible to achieve the effect of intended blurring in PP, but it is NOT as simple to get the same DOF.
godfrog said:
  • You can buy a Sigma 8-16, shoot it level and crop out the bottom. Like PP it does cost some resolution, but there is still plenty of detail for non-advertising sized prints, web, real estate agent use etc. This allows for even more extreme corrections than a Canon 17 TS-E used at max shift, but does not allow for tilt.
  • Tilt is not needed on small APS-C sensors to get the entire image in focus.
Click to expand...
Both of the above are simply not true. The 8-16 is an ultra-wide rectilinear lens...it does not fulfill the same superb sharpness and Depth of Field control possible when using a TS lens. And as for the tilt not needed on APS-C? I don't know how you could even begin to think that. Have you shot macros or landscapes??
godfrog said:
  • Using tilt for selective focus is difficult given the small APS-C sensors in Pentax DSLRs, especially when considering the small max aperture TS lenses generally have.
Click to expand...
I agree that it doesn't make the best sense for Pentax to release a TS lens at this point. Too expensive (especially given the usually frugal photographers who shoot Pentax), too niche, and not enough pros shoot Pentax to truly make use of it. Still, some of your points are closer to making excuses than legitimate points.
godfrog said:
--
My Flickr:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/36164047@N06/
Click to expand...
--
http://picasaweb.google.com/ChrisWeigl
 
Rod McD said:
Hi folks,

Time and again photographers in this forum are sharing their shots of wonderful places and architecture. It's one of my passions as well when I travel, as is wilderness landscape photography.
Click to expand...
If you want to use it for large format effect for landscape they aren't needed in the Pentax line-up as it is APS only (so far). Due to the larger DOF (for the same angle of view) of the APS format, it can give those near/far images 35mm (and larger) format cannot by stopping down the lens. Stitch if you need better image quality.
 
chrswggl said:
godfrog said:
Pentax does not have many reasons to introduce a TS lens, given the options photographers have today.
  • Those who need TS already have Canon/Nikon/MF/LF systems. It would be hopeless te try to capture parts of the pro market without a significant TS lineup and probably also a FF camera.
  • There is already K-mount TS lenses from Arax, Hartblei and Schneider and there seems to be minimal interest for these lenses as it is. I dont think Ive ever seen them put to use here in the forum or in the PPG.
Click to expand...
Problem is that these optics are hard to come by, manual focus, and overly expensive for non-OEM.
Click to expand...
I dont think manual focus is in any way an issue for a TS lens, in applications where you use tilt or shift there will be plenty of time to manually focus the lens. As for price and availability, they dont seem any more expensive than what a Pentax lens would be, and in no way too hard to find for those who would be interested.
chrswggl said:
chrswggl said:
  • It is possible to achieve the effect of shift using PP, and the results are very good.
Click to expand...
What you mean to say is it is possible to achieve the effect of intended blurring in PP, but it is NOT as simple to get the same DOF.
Click to expand...
I was only talking about shift, not tilts. Shift is not used for blurring anything.
chrswggl said:
chrswggl said:
  • You can buy a Sigma 8-16, shoot it level and crop out the bottom. Like PP it does cost some resolution, but there is still plenty of detail for non-advertising sized prints, web, real estate agent use etc. This allows for even more extreme corrections than a Canon 17 TS-E used at max shift, but does not allow for tilt.
  • Tilt is not needed on small APS-C sensors to get the entire image in focus.
Click to expand...
Both of the above are simply not true. The 8-16 is an ultra-wide rectilinear lens...it does not fulfill the same superb sharpness and Depth of Field control possible when using a TS lens. And as for the tilt not needed on APS-C? I don't know how you could even begin to think that. Have you shot macros or landscapes??
Click to expand...
What do you mean is not true? I said that a Sigma 8-16 will do what a Canon 17 TS-E can using shifts, but it cannot replicate the DOF control (tilt). Im not sure why you bring up the lens being rectilinear, the Canon 17 TS-E is rectilinear as well, it just has an exceptionally large image circle and ability to shift the lens to use all of it. As I said in my post, using a Sigma 8-16 will give you less detail to work with, but Im sure it will be plenty for most applications. Any image you can take with a Canon 17 TS-E using only shift can be taken with a Sigma 8-16 on APS-C, but at a lower resolution due to cropping. If you dont believe this then you dont understand how shift works.

As for tilt being useless on APS-C, I admit I was a wrong. It would be helpful with extremely close foreground subjects and for a wider range of shots at longer focal lengths. I was thinking too much about the ultra-wide Canon 17 TS-E, at such a wide field of view tilt would rarely be needed.

--
My Flickr:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/36164047@N06/
 
godfrog said:
Pentax does not have many reasons to introduce a TS lens, given the options photographers have today.
  • Those who need TS already have Canon/Nikon/MF/LF systems. It would be hopeless te try to capture parts of the pro market without a significant TS lineup and probably also a FF camera.
Click to expand...
Pentax market them selves as an outdoors landscape type camera company so to not make a lens that can be used for this purpose is foolish
godfrog said:
  • There is already K-mount TS lenses from Arax, Hartblei and Schneider and there seems to be minimal interest for these lenses as it is. I dont think Ive ever seen them put to use here in the forum or in the PPG.
Click to expand...
All well and good, but do they make a 16 or 17mm lens... wait they don't... that is likely why you don't see many people using them they are simply not wide enough for our format.
godfrog said:
  • It is possible to achieve the effect of shift using PP, and the results are very good.
Click to expand...
If by very good you mean soft and overtly interpolated then yes you are 100% correct.
godfrog said:
  • You can buy a Sigma 8-16, shoot it level and crop out the bottom. Like PP it does cost some resolution, but there is still plenty of detail for non-advertising sized prints, web, real estate agent use etc. This allows for even more extreme corrections than a Canon 17 TS-E used at max shift, but does not allow for tilt.
Click to expand...
Yes but when resolution is paramount you cannot use the compose flat with ultra wide and crop.
godfrog said:
  • Tilt is not needed on small APS-C sensors to get the entire image in focus.
Click to expand...
Small APS-C sensors that have theoretically 1 stop more DoF then a 35mm type sensor coupled with a diffraction point theoretically that starts a stop earlier, yeah you don't need Tilt, shooting with the Sigma 10-20 at f8 (anything less and the image really starts to muddy up) i have never been able to get the extreme DoF that i would like
godfrog said:
  • Using tilt for selective focus is difficult given the small APS-C sensors in Pentax DSLRs, especially when considering the small max aperture TS lenses generally have.
Click to expand...
well when shooting Large format with a 150 f5.6 at f22 and a target at about 5 meters with a tilt effect i was able to get centimetres of in focus image.
godfrog said:
  • Making that tilted miniaturization effect is something Pentax cannot do, but really, that is a gimmick and Pentax has a much bigger need for other lenses (fast wide, longer tele, SDM TC etc.).
Click to expand...
Yes i agree that the "minatures" is a gimmic but that is not what i would use a Tilt and shift lens for. For me the advantage of the Tilt and shift lens for landscapes is the same as the advantages of the MACRO lens for my product photography. I use the MACRO lens not for the close focus (every lens i own could be used for most of the products that i use), but because of the zero distortion, the extreme sharpness and flat field of focus. Those characteristics are also carried over the the Tilt and shift lenses and that is what i would get it for, my experience with the Tilt and shift lenses from canon are extreme sharpness across the frame when no correction is applied, no vignetting when no correction is applied and no distortion at any point. Finally the less correction that i have to do to any image is a bonus because i prefer to spend the time working on my images not correcting them before i can work on them.
--
Chris.

A weather sealed ultra wide, is that too much to ask?

http://www.pentaxphotogallery.com/chriside

GMT +9.5

Pentax SLR talk FAQ
http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1036&message=23161072
 
Yeah 35mm is not a good FL for a TS lens on APS-C. Needs to be down in the 15-18mm range for architecture work. I played with the Arsat 35mm and the Pentax 28mm PC lens and both are not wide enough for APS-C.
Kent Gittings
 
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