This Camera (Pro 14n) ROCKS!

Thom Hogan · Sep 29, 2002

Scott Hughes said:
After reading the specs on Kodak's site, I was ready to put down my
credit card... then I came here and read that the 14N is based on a
N80. Isn't the S2 as well??

Yes, as is the Nikon D100.

Skai Hues said:
1/125th synch? Please... besides studio shooters, photographers
need a 1/500 synch, or at least as I and other 760 users are
dealing with, 1/250th synch. It's a serious step back in time to a
slooooow synch of 1/125.

Kodak is limited by their choice of bodies. Nikon themselves got around the sync speed limitations of a mechanical shutter by making the D1 series a combination mechanical/electronic shutter. But not only does this add to the complexity of the design, it also requires detailed knowledge of the shutter/electronics timings. On the D100 they chose not to do that, though they do get a small benefit from the 1.5x frame size difference that allows them to sync the flash at 1/180 on the D100 while making no changes to the shutter.

But the bottom line here is probably the bottom line. We are currently in a time of brisk competition and a customer expectation of rapid price drops AND rapid image quality increases. Something has to give. As market shares and price points stabilize, I suspect that the primary changes to bodies to remain competitive will once again return to "shooting features," such as sync speed. But that's in the future, not today. Today, we see primarily price drops and/or image quality improvements.

Skai Hues said:
It's unrealistic to publish this camera as a 'pro' body since it is
based on something which is not.

In what way is the N80 not professional? Plenty of us Nikon pros have been using N80's over the years. Granted, I don't know of many studio photographers using that body, but the N80 was my body of choice for backcountry assignments until I switched to digital.

Skai Hues said:
Your software/interface (PhotoDesk) is excellent, but the
serious/professional photographer is being left out in the cold
with slower synch speeds, than your competition, and a
'pro-sumer' body with it's other drawbacks.

From my reading of Kodak's press release and other information, the primary role of the N80 in the 14n's development is to serve as the donor body of the shooting related parts (viewfinder, AF system, flash system, exposure system, shutter). Kodak appears to have mounted these in a different chassis and built the outer body and controls themselves. Of the parts Kodak is using, the only question I'd have is about the rated number of exposures expected out of the shutter. Nikon has published expected life cycles on the F100, F5, and D1 series. To my knowledge they haven't on the N80 (or D100).

--
Thom Hogan
author, Nikon Field Guide
author, Nikon Flash Guide
author, Complete Guide to the Nikon D100
author, Complete Guide to the Nikon D1, D1h, & D1x
http://www.bythom.com

Skai Hues · Sep 29, 2002

Philip K said:
Please let all these portrait and wedding photographers know that
they are not using professional models.

In my area no one uses the Pentax, one guy fights with the synch speed of the Contax and is in the process of switching over to the D1x. Never seen a Mamiya 645 being used here. Fact is, I used Mamiya 645s in the late 70s and ditched the system for Hassleblads simply for the leaf shutters and 1/500th synch speed.

Many of us who work in daylight situations where fill flash is a necessity, slower synchs are a real issue. Try fill flashing a group of twenty-five people where your meter (ISO @80) reads f/16 at 1/125. The flash output needed would require a Speedotron 2400.

Philip K said:
The slow sync speed does have a work around due to the 80
ISO and fast Nikkor primes. (You can use a 85mm f/1.4 lens with a
0.6 ND filter. The lens will then act like an f/4 with the
viewfinder and AF sensors.

Uh.... that ND also does a number on the effective flash output, so it's a work around that doesn't work.

I still could consider a 14n, but it would be replacing our old Fuji S1 as an available light camrera. The only way I could rationalize the investment is the fact both our 760 and 14n presumably could use the same software when processing, post shoot.

Scott

Skai Hues · Sep 29, 2002

Thom Hogan said:
In what way is the N80 not professional? Plenty of us Nikon pros
have been using N80's over the years. Granted, I don't know of many
studio photographers using that body, but the N80 was my body of
choice for backcountry assignments until I switched to digital.

Thom, the killer for me is the synch speed. Although I don't know the 'durability factor', this body would likely do well in a camrea room.

I have a good friend who shoots thousands of seniors and underclass photos and he switched over from Hasselblads to Fuji S1's and now S2's. The synch is not an issue for him in the studio.

I come from and work in a different situation and there are times (many) when I must use fill.

Scott

DaveyP · Sep 29, 2002

Scott Hughes said:
Thom Hogan said:

In what way is the N80 not professional? Plenty of us Nikon pros
have been using N80's over the years. Granted, I don't know of many
studio photographers using that body, but the N80 was my body of
choice for backcountry assignments until I switched to digital.

Click to expand...

Thom, the killer for me is the synch speed. Although I don't know
the 'durability factor', this body would likely do well in a camrea
room.

I have a good friend who shoots thousands of seniors and underclass
photos and he switched over from Hasselblads to Fuji S1's and now
S2's. The synch is not an issue for him in the studio.

I come from and work in a different situation and there are times
(many) when I must use fill.

Scott

Anyone remember the Olympus OM4ti? Had a lowly flash-sync of 1/60th but Olympus developed the F280 flash which allowed it to flash-sync up to its max shutter speed of 1/2000th!

If that could be done in the 1980's............

....are you listening Metz

.....

Philip K · Sep 29, 2002

Skai Hues said:
Uh.... that ND also does a number on the effective flash output, so
it's a work around that doesn't work.

I use a Hasselblad, so I agree with you about sync speed being nice. My point was that this didn't prevent the model from being a pro model.

Your comment about the ND having an impact on effective flash output is a common error. It has no impact what so ever!

I learned this many years ago with film. As far as flash power outdoors, it doesn't matter if you are using a 25 ISO film or a 3200 ISO film the effective power of the flash is the same. (Though, you might have a minimum f/stop problem with higher speed film.)

The reason it isn't a problem is that you are balancing the flash to the sun. If you are using a -2 f/stop fill, it will take the same about of power regardless of any camera setting, any kind of film, or any kind of filter. The only thing that will change the power requirement is the distance from the flash to the subject.

ND filters have no negative impact on effective flash power in outdoor fill-in flash.

Philip

Philip K · Sep 29, 2002

Philip K said:
The reason it isn't a problem is that you are balancing the flash
to the sun. If you are using a -2 f/stop fill, it will take the
same about of power regardless of any camera setting, any kind of
film, or any kind of filter. The only thing that will change the
power requirement is the distance from the flash to the subject.

Typo error it should read

The reason it isn't a problem is that you are balancing the flash to the sun. If you are using a -2 f/stop fill, it will take the same AMOUNT of power regardless of any camera setting, any kind of film, or any kind of filter. The only thing that will change the power requirement is the distance from the flash to the subject.

Philip K · Sep 29, 2002

Sync speed does affect effective power of fill flash.

I am tired and forgot what I learned in the past.

I am still using Hassablad for my business. What I learned was at the 1/500 sync it didn't matter if I used 160 or 400 film. The only thing that changed was the f/stop. I was at my fastest sync. If you could use a faster sync, it does make a difference.

Sorry, it has been too long a day.

I was wrong.

Philip

Philip K · Sep 29, 2002

I shouldn't post when I am tired, the old brain gets confused. I make big mistakes and lose my credibility.

I was right the first time.

It only stands to reason. The only thing to matter is that you are balancing the sun. It will take they same amount of power to do that with the only variable being distance.

It does have impact on the camera settings for proper exposure but not on power.

This is a first, the first time that I have had an online argument with myself.

Sorry,
Philip

Philip K said:
Sync speed does affect effective power of fill flash.

I am tired and forgot what I learned in the past.

I am still using Hassablad for my business. What I learned was at
the 1/500 sync it didn't matter if I used 160 or 400 film. The only
thing that changed was the f/stop. I was at my fastest sync. If you
could use a faster sync, it does make a difference.

Sorry, it has been too long a day.

I was wrong.

Philip

Arthur Dent · Sep 29, 2002

Scott Fleming said:
Where is the camera assembled and what, generally, percentage of
the camera is an American product?

I'm very interested in the camera and would love to have Eastman
Kodack emblazoned across my new camera as opposed to some foreign
brand.

What brand of American made lenses will you use?

Jay Kelbley · Sep 29, 2002

Tom May said:
My question is whether Kodak will make a Software Development Kit
(SDK) available for individuals and companies to create new filters
and features (plugins) that could be downloaded to firmware.

While we do have an SDK available for the Mac and PC (computers), we currently do not have developer tools for the in camera firmware..

-Jay

--
Jay Kelbley
-Eastman Kodak Company
[email protected]

Jay Kelbley · Sep 29, 2002

Scott Fleming said:
Where is the camera assembled and what, generally, percentage of
the camera is an American product?

It is made in sunny (but soon to be snowy) Rochester, NY...
Many of the parts come from other places...

Althoug, this note is coming from Germany, this site is hosted (as I recall) in the U.K. (I had French wine with dinner!)

-Jay..

--
Jay Kelbley
-Eastman Kodak Company
[email protected]

Tom May · Sep 29, 2002

Jay Kelbley,

Thanks for your reply.

tom

Jay Kelbley · Sep 29, 2002

Aaron Thomson said:
I lust after a particular brand of big, white lenses. Is there any
chance in the forseeable future there MIGHT be a 14C?

Question 2: Is there (I know you have been asked this a hundred
times) any chance that you could provide a link to one of Ralf's
14n pics.

Well..
I assume that the "c" in the 14c you ask about stands for "cool"..
(Since I believe that the "n" in the 14n name stands for "nice"!..

We are planning on posting as many of Ralf's images as we are allowed to, somtime after the show..

(Ralf is the amazing photographer that worked with us in our booth at Photokina shooting the DCS ProBack and Pro 14n cameras.)

-Jay

--
Jay Kelbley
-Eastman Kodak Company
[email protected]

Scott Fleming · Sep 29, 2002

Thank you.

You go ahead and drink frog wine while they allow their out of control Islamonazis to burn synagogues. I'll drink Califonian and Australian wine untill the surrender monkies learn to behave themselves.

I'll also buy my camera equipment that I mail order through Phil's advertisers because I am loyal to the man who has given me this wonderful website. I won't hold it against him that he doesnt use an American host although he should.

When you grow up perhaps you will learn to understand loyalty to a set of real values and the value of supporting higher ethics as opposed to adhereing to some BS globalism.

Ger Bee · Sep 29, 2002

-- I'm voting NO to NICE.

I agree with you. That's the best I can do - sorry it's just one vote.

Thom Hogan · Sep 29, 2002

Scott Hughes said:
I come from and work in a different situation and there are times
(many) when I must use fill.

So do I. Indeed, my students know I have a flash on my camera most of the time and use fill flash on virtually all my shots. While I wouldn't try to convince you that the 14n has a "reasonable" sync speed (you really need 1/250 in bright situations), it isn't all bad news.

We went through a similar discussion on the Fuji SLR forum when the S2 came out, but I'll repeat it here: lower ISO values help (somewhat) in flash situations. Just looking at the sync speed specs doesn't always tell the whole story. Consider 10 feet our subject distance and an SB-28 set to 20mm. Since APERTURE = GN / DISTANCE, we get:

D100 at base ISO: aperture = f/9.2
14n at base ISO: aperture = f/5.9

That's a little better than a stop of difference, while the difference in sync speeds is only 2/3 of a stop. So, we don't gain much, but we do gain something. (Those that have the Fuji S1 know the reverse situation: a 1/90 sync speed and a ISO 320 base. Yuck.)

--
Thom Hogan
author, Nikon Field Guide
author, Nikon Flash Guide
author, Complete Guide to the Nikon D100
author, Complete Guide to the Nikon D1, D1h, & D1x
http://www.bythom.com

Richard P64930 · Sep 29, 2002

Given that this camera is loosely based on a consumer grade Nikon body how durable will the shutter mechanism be. I would think that in all digital cameras this is one area that will be put under far more stress than their film counterparts.

Nirto Karsten Fischer · Sep 29, 2002

Scott Fleming said:
You go ahead and drink frog wine while they allow their out of
control Islamonazis to burn synagogues. I'll drink Califonian and
Australian wine untill the surrender monkies ... (and so on)

I've seen better entertaining stupidity than this. Maybe you try again?
But probably you're so full of hate and have no capacity left.

Nirto Karsten Fischer

Scott Fleming · Sep 29, 2002

Typical Euro-weenie BS.

Terrorists are slaughtering thousands and planing to kill millions and what are YOU doing? Piling on those attacked and blubering nonsense. I call that siding with the enemy.

salim madjd · Sep 29, 2002

Scott Fleming said:
Typical Euro-weenie BS.

Terrorists are slaughtering thousands and planing to kill millions
and what are YOU doing? Piling on those attacked and blubering
nonsense. I call that siding with the enemy.

This Camera (Pro 14n) ROCKS!

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