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  • Thread starter Thread starter Karl H. Timmerman M.A.J.D.
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Karl H. Timmerman M.A.J.D. said:
Bob ... as I've said before .... love and enjoy seeing your work.
Warm Regards
Karl
Karl H. Timmerman M.A.,J.D.
http://www.karltimmerman.com
Click to expand...
Well, thank you Karl.

Of course, I'm no pro.

And I don't even pretend to be a good photographer, just someone who likes to snap pictures when they travel and to hang out on this site and learn stuff.

Robert F. Wallace, B.A.(5 majors), M.A., M.S., M.A., Ph.D. (and I built my own house too!) ;o)

--
bob
http://www.pbase.com/bobtrips
pictures from Thailand, Myanmar(Burma), and Nepal
 
Look whos kicking damage control into overtime.
Member said:
I certainly respect your decision. But would love to see and
appreciate your work. Remain convinced I can learn from it :)
Click to expand...
So it's okay if we post with a psuedonym as long as we let you see our work? Or does that just go for Capital Man?

Pathetic Karl, pathetic. Dont you just wish, sometimes, you never opened your mouth? You never said shared what the outcome was of that 8th Circuit argument.

GageFX
 
gagefx said:
I have ZERO professional work posted on the internet. By the way, Karl, > you say you're an attorney, what are YOU doing in the PRO forum?
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Geez Ken ... would love to see your work ... so I can learn from it. As for me calling myself a "pro" ... been wrestling with that. Make enough money from selling my prints to pay for a D1X, an Epson 7500, my wife's Cruiser, my Durango, my VTX 1800 ... and ... er ... so what makes a "pro"? hmmm ... make more money practicing law, though. Figure, as long as there is "love and alcohol" .. I have "job security" :) Life is good :)
Warm Regards
Karl
Karl H. Timmerman M.A.,J.D.
http://www.karltimmerman.com
 
You talkin to ME? I'm not Ken. I'm the one hiding behind my former comany name.

A "pro" gets paid for his work - doesnt make his work "pro", though. I guess you belong to the buy a camera + sell a print = professional photographer. What an insult to those that have actually invested time and money to improve and perfect their craft AND actually make a living at it. I know you see the difference Karl. Just be honest with yourself. I dont knock a person who enjoys photography and sells a print or even doesn't sell a print. I do take offense to someone who buys a camera and thinks they've bought a profession.

GageFX
Karl H. Timmerman M.A.J.D. said:
gagefx said:
I have ZERO professional work posted on the internet. By the way, Karl, > you say you're an attorney, what are YOU doing in the PRO forum?
Click to expand...
Geez Ken ... would love to see your work ... so I can learn from
it. As for me calling myself a "pro" ... been wrestling with that.
Make enough money from selling my prints to pay for a D1X, an Epson
7500, my wife's Cruiser, my Durango, my VTX 1800 ... and ... er ...
so what makes a "pro"? hmmm ... make more money practicing law,
though. Figure, as long as there is "love and alcohol" .. I have
"job security" :) Life is good :)
Warm Regards
Karl
Karl H. Timmerman M.A.,J.D.
http://www.karltimmerman.com
Click to expand...
 
gagefx said:
You talkin to ME? I'm not Ken. I'm the one hiding behind my former
comany name.

A "pro" gets paid for his work - doesnt make his work "pro",
though. I guess you belong to the buy a camera + sell a print =
professional photographer. What an insult to those that have
actually invested time and money to improve and perfect their craft
AND actually make a living at it. I know you see the difference
Karl. Just be honest with yourself. I dont knock a person who
enjoys photography and sells a print or even doesn't sell a print.
I do take offense to someone who buys a camera and thinks they've
bought a profession.

GageFX
Click to expand...
Well said ... and thank you for sharing your opinion.
Karl
Karl H. Timmerman M.A.,J.D.
http://www.karltimmerman.com
 
Alas, I'm not a member of Westlaw. You can share the results with us. I dont need an official website for an answer.

As for the topic of this thread and the "what makes a pro photographer" topic, I have spoken my peace.

GageFX
Karl H. Timmerman M.A.J.D. said:
gagefx said:
Pathetic Karl, pathetic. Dont you just wish, sometimes, you never
opened your mouth? You never said shared what the outcome was of
that 8th Circuit argument.
Click to expand...
Zentz vs. Zentz .... crank up your WestLaw and read the opinion :)
Regards
Karl
Karl H. Timmerman M.A.,J.D.
http://www.karltimmerman.com
Click to expand...
 
Karl H. Timmerman M.A.J.D. said:
CLTHRS said:
I am not comparing my writing to his/hers, but Shakespeare was an
alias for a writer of a different name.
Click to expand...
er .... you arn't suggesting that Shakespeare "posted" his work
anonymously? Have a feeling that everybody ... at that time, knew
exactly who Shakespeare was in "real life"? .... (smiling)
.... Thank you for posting your e-mail addy :)
Warm Regards
Karl
Karl H. Timmerman M.A.,J.D.
http://www.karltimmerman.com
Click to expand...
Actually, Karl, there are a number of people who have studied Shakespeare and his work and who attribute the writing to another person.

The "Works of Shakespeare" demonstrate a level of knowledge in history, geography, even law, that is quite advanced. No one can demonstrate how Ol' Bill would have come up with that level of knowledge given what is known of him. (He traveled very little outside of England, had no formal education, in fact, some feel that he could barely sign his name.)

At that point in time being an actor or involved with theater was a pretty low class activity. The thought is that the true author was a member of the royalty who loved to write plays and let Bill have the public credit.

True? Don't know. But very interesting stuff.
--
bob
http://www.pbase.com/bobtrips
pictures from Thailand, Myanmar(Burma), and Nepal
 
Karl H. Timmerman M.A.J.D. said:
Greets. Curious to know ... how any "pros" respond to anonymous
posts ... like .. from "Pixelpuke" or "PhotoNuke" ... "Is the S40
better than the Nikon XXXXX" .... want to help neophyte photogs
... but feeling stepped on by folks who do not respect themselves
enough to sign their names. Comments?
Regards
Karl
Karl H. Timmerman M.A.,J.D.
http://www.karltimmerman.com
Click to expand...
Karl,

In the past I probably would have agreed with you. But try this; goto http://www.411.com click on the free phone search and type in your name, city and state. I did and what is probably your address pops up. I don't know about you but that makes me a little uncomfortable considering I have aq family.

To you and me no problem but if I were a female there is NO way I would consider using my name and giving my city and state as you [and I] did on our profiles.

Some time ago A lady posted what happened when she did this on another forum after posting a photo of her daughter.

I this twisted world I have no problems with people trying to protect themselves and their families.

I also agree one should be careful to pick non-irritating nicknames but there are many ages, ethnical and religious groups using this site and what is OK with one group might not find approval with another so I guess the best we can do is read the post and then decide how to procede.

BTW I enjoy reading your posts; I've learned a lot from you; Thank you!

See I almost use my real Name
--
Ray
RJNedimyer
 
This type of thread (whether appropriate in this forum or not), really gets me thinking.

First, I think it's fair to say that an "anonymous" post (whatever that is), niether adds or detracts from the content of the post. I try to gleen what insight and information I can (or can't) from the actual words that are written.

Buy a camera + Sell a print = Pro Photographer. This is interesting. Is a Professional Photographer someone who has mastered the craft, or someone who can make a living with a camera? Until I can master the craft, I'm voting for the latter. I've wasted half my life learning, instead of doing.

Seminonymous,
Dennis

Husband of One
Father of Three
Grandfather of Six
Caught a 13 lb. Bass
Bowled a 300 game
Built 3 Houses
Graduated from NYIP :))

http://www.pbase.com/jokasmophia/
 
Karl H. Timmerman M.A.J.D. said:
I appreciate you posting your name and e-mail addy.
Click to expand...
Sure thing, no problem. Only one tiny detail, here on dpreview.com
is the only place I use the name "Tim Martin".

And as far as the email address, that's just a free email address,
that I only look at once (at best) every week. And if you do
write to that address, try to give the subject line something that
will convince me it isn't junk "spam" mail. Because I routinely
delete tons of messages there without ever reading them.

Although I will read it if it looks like real mail.
Member said:
Where may I enjoy seeing your work? Continue to believe ...
seeing other folks genius ... only allows me to grow.
Click to expand...
Whatever "genius" I am offering here, in these forums, at this
point in time, is in written words. You can click on my message
posting history to see everything I want to share.

Sorry to be a bit nasty, but I am still a bit annoyed with you.
I think it has something to do with the fact that in the message
you wrote that started this thread you suggested that I, not
you, have an ego problem.

But, in time, maybe I can forgive you. We'll see.
 
DennisASA said:
Husband of One
Father of Three
Grandfather of Six
Caught a 13 lb. Bass
Bowled a 300 game
Built 3 Houses
Graduated from NYIP :))
Click to expand...
-Single (again)
-Barely made it through high school
-Father of one Greyhound
-Caught a 10 lb. Rainbow Trout
-Bicycled across the USA
-Organized, promoted, directed, and raced the RAW (Race Across Wisconsin)
-Can pound my chest as hard as the next guy
-Still living, and
-Having FUN!!!
--
Cheers,
markE
  • Oly E-20, FL-40, WCON, Nikon CP 990, & LOTS of batteries!
-Gallery: http://www.pbase.com/marke

 
DennisASA said:
Buy a camera + Sell a print = Pro Photographer. This is
interesting. Is a Professional Photographer someone who has
mastered the craft, or someone who can make a living with a camera?
Until I can master the craft, I'm voting for the latter. I've
wasted half my life learning, instead of doing.
Click to expand...
I do not intend to attemopt to detract from anything you have studied or accomplished. If aI fix a friends sink and he gives me $10, can I now, HONESTLY, call myself a "PROFESSIONAL PLUMBER"? When I was 10 and I washed the dished for my mom and she gave me $5, am I now a "PROFESSIONAL DISHWASHER"? I am also a:

Professional Landscaper
Professional Driver
Professional Graphic Artist
Professional Web Developer
Professional Chef
Professional Day Care Worker
Professional Housecleaner
Professional Movie Critic
Professional Messenger
Professional Airbrush Artist
Professional Singer
Professional Actor
Professional Writer
Professional Electrician
Professional Carpenter
Professional Painter
Professional Tile Setter
Professional Interior Installer
Professional Baker
Professional Computer Technician
Professional Audio/Video Installer

... and probably 100 more things.

Have I made my point? It's nice to sell a print. It's even nicer to delude yourself into thinking that makes you a "pro". DO YOU FIT THE DICTIONARY DEFINITION? YES. Does that make you a "pro"? No.

People buying cameras and thinking they're pro makes REAL pros look bad. You dont have to be a master to be pro, thank God, otherwise I wouldn't be. But shouldn't you HAVE to? When a "newly purchased camera pro" takes bad pictures, it reflects on many , if not all, professional photographers in the eyes of the person that paid for the garbage.

Please, enjoy your photography and learn as much as you can. Sell prints if people will buy them. I have no problem with that. Dont even quit your day job. Take up 3 more day jobs... I hope you still have time to take photos; just understand the difference between someone who spends the majority of their time doing something unrelated and sells a couple prints and the guys that do it day in and day out. It's a hobby and you make a little money from your hobby. That's cool. I know plety of people who do it, but I never hear them telling people they're a "Professional Arts and Crafter" or "Professional Kite Maker". The have a job or profession and do their hobby on the side and maybe make some money at it.

My only point is that an ATTORNEY who's sold some prints comes into the PRO forum and starts a thread about who SHOULD be posting here. I found it quite ironic.

I have no problem with ANYONE posting here, but I will comment on obsurdity.

GageFX
 
gagefx said:
People buying cameras and thinking they're pro makes REAL pros look
bad.
Click to expand...
I don't see how this should happen. I don't judge any professional by the work of a "wanna be". I prefer to see his/her prior work, or possibly references.
Rembvrijn said:
When a "newly purchased
camera pro" takes bad pictures, it reflects on many , if not all,
professional photographers in the eyes of the person that paid for
the garbage.
Click to expand...
If you only depend on the work of those amateurs before you to sell your work, then I could see how this could happen. But isn't that what a porfolio is for, to show what YOU are capable of?
--
Cheers,
markE
  • Oly E-20, FL-40, WCON, Nikon CP 990, & LOTS of batteries!
-Gallery: http://www.pbase.com/marke

 
Pros are as pros earn ... It's like writing: a lot of professional writers produce absolute cr@p, but they make a lot of money at it. Same with photography. Just because you make your living at it, doesn't make you good. But it DOES make you a pro.

(although I'm not sure why the whole semantic thing is important anyway...)
gagefx said:
Rembvrijn said:
Buy a camera + Sell a print = Pro Photographer. This is
interesting. Is a Professional Photographer someone who has
mastered the craft, or someone who can make a living with a camera?
Until I can master the craft, I'm voting for the latter. I've
wasted half my life learning, instead of doing.
Click to expand...
I do not intend to attemopt to detract from anything you have
studied or accomplished. If aI fix a friends sink and he gives me
$10, can I now, HONESTLY, call myself a "PROFESSIONAL PLUMBER"?
When I was 10 and I washed the dished for my mom and she gave me
$5, am I now a "PROFESSIONAL DISHWASHER"? I am also a:

Professional Landscaper
Professional Driver
Professional Graphic Artist
Professional Web Developer
Professional Chef
Professional Day Care Worker
Professional Housecleaner
Professional Movie Critic
Professional Messenger
Professional Airbrush Artist
Professional Singer
Professional Actor
Professional Writer
Professional Electrician
Professional Carpenter
Professional Painter
Professional Tile Setter
Professional Interior Installer
Professional Baker
Professional Computer Technician
Professional Audio/Video Installer

... and probably 100 more things.

Have I made my point? It's nice to sell a print. It's even nicer to
delude yourself into thinking that makes you a "pro". DO YOU FIT
THE DICTIONARY DEFINITION? YES. Does that make you a "pro"? No.

People buying cameras and thinking they're pro makes REAL pros look
bad. You dont have to be a master to be pro, thank God, otherwise I
wouldn't be. But shouldn't you HAVE to? When a "newly purchased
camera pro" takes bad pictures, it reflects on many , if not all,
professional photographers in the eyes of the person that paid for
the garbage.

Please, enjoy your photography and learn as much as you can. Sell
prints if people will buy them. I have no problem with that. Dont
even quit your day job. Take up 3 more day jobs... I hope you still
have time to take photos; just understand the difference between
someone who spends the majority of their time doing something
unrelated and sells a couple prints and the guys that do it day in
and day out. It's a hobby and you make a little money from your
hobby. That's cool. I know plety of people who do it, but I never
hear them telling people they're a "Professional Arts and Crafter"
or "Professional Kite Maker". The have a job or profession and do
their hobby on the side and maybe make some money at it.

My only point is that an ATTORNEY who's sold some prints comes into
the PRO forum and starts a thread about who SHOULD be posting here.
I found it quite ironic.

I have no problem with ANYONE posting here, but I will comment on
obsurdity.

GageFX
Click to expand...
--
http://www.pbase.com/davek/
 
Mark - check your email (the one attached to your DPReview account).

I decided not to post what I had typed up as it might be considered insulting to some members. I dont intend to insult anyone or tell them they cant take pictures. Here is a part that I wrote that I will post as it answers your question.
markE59102 said:
markE59102 said:
People buying cameras and thinking they're pro
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
makes REAL pros look
markE59102 said:
markE59102 said:
bad.
Click to expand...
I don't see how this should happen. I don't judge
Click to expand...
any professional
markE59102 said:
by the work of a "wanna be". I prefer to see his/her
Click to expand...
prior work, or
markE59102 said:
possibly references.
Click to expand...
Let's look at it from a Professional Portrait
Photographer's standpoint.

There are ALOT of people out there who dont see the
need for Professional Portraiture. Almost everyone
owns a camera of some sort, can point it at someone
and, thes, have a portait of them. Who need a
professional. This person then comes across our
HOBBIEST who CALLS himself a "Professional" because he
has sold a print. He then takes a porr excuse for a
professional portrait and the customer realizes the
professional was unnecessary and a waste of money. To
THAT person and evryone he/she talks to, "Professional
Portraiture" is unnecessary. That hurts PROFESSIONAL
portrait photographers.

I agree this doesnt extend to ALL areas of
photography, but it certainly applies to the situation
I outlined and a few more, I'm sure. Agreed?

GageFX

I've had enough of this. I wish everyone well, and lots of print sales.
 
Member said:
Same with photography. Just because you make your living at it,
doesn't make you good. But it DOES make you a pro.
Click to expand...
That's the whole thing. You hit it on the head. "Just because you make a living at it". These are not people that make a living at it, but have SOLD SOME PRINTS. Does THAT make them pro?
Member said:
(although I'm not sure why the whole semantic thing is important
anyway...)
Click to expand...
The semantics matter because that is life. We are here, on a VERBAL forum, and semantics matter. I have heard many times people compaining that some of us get caught up in the WORDS. That's what we are typing here! If we are to get a point across and make ANY sense, we MUST watch the semantics.

I dont care how much money Karl makes at his photography - I'm glad he enjoys it. But making a little money from his photography does not make him ANY MORE than an attorney who makes a little money from his photography. THIS IS MY OPINION. I'm not saying I'm the ultimate deciding factor in this. It's just my opinon.

Another area the semantics come in is an ATTORNEY is in the PRO DIGITAL PHOTOGRAPHY forum commenting on how people should go about participating here. In my opinion he has no place - MAYBE in a LAWYER forum. I am a full time professional photographer and I wouldn't even BEGIN to set guidelines as to who can post here and what name they should use.

GageFX
 
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