D7i Color Space?

Art Rosch

Leading Member
Messages
852
Reaction score
0
Location
Woodacre, CA, US
I got a D7i for my girlfriend, about a month ago. We've been moving,
so she hasn't used it much, but now the time will be available,
I have a question, as a more experienced photographer than my
girlfriend, but not a Minolta initiate. Color Space? How do you turn
a D7i file into an Adobe RGB file, other than opening it, and saving as?
What am I m issing? And is DIVU necessary? Looks pretty buggy to
me. We generally use Breezebrowser to look at our pics. BTW,
she won't be using any RAW modes, too slow. Sorry if this is
a dumb question, but I'm getting my first look at a Minolta, and
I love the way it's laid out, very smart. Thanks.

Art
 
You should not simply do a "save as" AdobeRGB. The "proper" way is to open the file, assign the D7i profile, convert it to AdboeRGB, and then save.
I got a D7i for my girlfriend, about a month ago. We've been moving,
so she hasn't used it much, but now the time will be available,
I have a question, as a more experienced photographer than my
girlfriend, but not a Minolta initiate. Color Space? How do you turn
a D7i file into an Adobe RGB file, other than opening it, and
saving as?
What am I m issing? And is DIVU necessary? Looks pretty buggy to
me. We generally use Breezebrowser to look at our pics. BTW,
she won't be using any RAW modes, too slow. Sorry if this is
a dumb question, but I'm getting my first look at a Minolta, and
I love the way it's laid out, very smart. Thanks.

Art
 
I got a D7i for my girlfriend, about a month ago. We've been moving,
so she hasn't used it much, but now the time will be available,
I have a question, as a more experienced photographer than my
girlfriend, but not a Minolta initiate. Color Space? How do you turn
a D7i file into an Adobe RGB file, other than opening it, and
saving as?
What am I m issing? And is DIVU necessary? Looks pretty buggy to
me. We generally use Breezebrowser to look at our pics. BTW,
she won't be using any RAW modes, too slow. Sorry if this is
a dumb question, but I'm getting my first look at a Minolta, and
I love the way it's laid out, very smart. Thanks.

Art
I don't have the camera here to work with, just a few files on my
hard drive. Do you mean open with the 'embedded profile', in
this case it says sRGBIEC61966, etc? Is that the Dimage's profile? Art
 
You don't need to have the camera with you, just download the D7i profile from Minolta website. However, since the Minolta profile is very close to sRGB, some people would skip that step (of assigning the D7i profile), i.e., do what you have done (open with sRGB profile). However, if you want to save the image as Adobe, you have to explicitly convert first.
I don't have the camera here to work with, just a few files on my
hard drive. Do you mean open with the 'embedded profile', in
this case it says sRGBIEC61966, etc? Is that the Dimage's profile?
Art
 
I believe selecting the AdobeRGB profile during "save as" is the same as assigning AdobeRGB, which is definitely wrong for D7i without going through "Convert" first.
You should not simply do a "save as" AdobeRGB. The "proper" way is
to open the file, assign the D7i profile, convert it to AdboeRGB,
and then save.
What will be the difference?

Tom
[/B]
 
Converting to the D7i image, which is apparently very close to sRGB, to AdobeRGB will be very much like putting on a suit coat that is 2 sizes larger than your body. Just as the larger coat doesn't increase the size of your body, the larger AdobeRGB color apace will not expand the color gamut of your images. The sRGB (i.e. D7i native) color space simply fits entirely inside of AdobeRGB and the color gamut of the image remains the same.

The mapping of color gamuts only occurs when the target colorspace is smaller (e.g., AdobeRGB > sRGB) or they overlap (sRGB > CYMK). How the colors are mapped from one space to the other depends on the rendering intent setting and the color management engine.

See the color management section of http://super.nova.org/PhotoClass for colorspace diagrams and 3D animations of intersecting color spaces.

Chuck Gardner
I got a D7i for my girlfriend, about a month ago. We've been moving,
so she hasn't used it much, but now the time will be available,
I have a question, as a more experienced photographer than my
girlfriend, but not a Minolta initiate. Color Space? How do you turn
a D7i file into an Adobe RGB file, other than opening it, and
saving as?
What am I m issing? And is DIVU necessary? Looks pretty buggy to
me. We generally use Breezebrowser to look at our pics. BTW,
she won't be using any RAW modes, too slow. Sorry if this is
a dumb question, but I'm getting my first look at a Minolta, and
I love the way it's laid out, very smart. Thanks.

Art
 
What is the purpose of the colourspace? If I have my monitor set up with it's panasonic icm profile. And I open the a file in PS7, it asks me if I want to open the image, (from the D7i), and change to the working Profile or to the embedded profile.

What is the difference? Does the embedded show me the actual colours of the photo, from when it was originally taken?
And how does my monitor profile affect that?

Probably some ignorant questions there, but I still don't really understand the whole colourspace/profile thing.

Thanks
-Dan.
I got a D7i for my girlfriend, about a month ago. We've been moving,
so she hasn't used it much, but now the time will be available,
I have a question, as a more experienced photographer than my
girlfriend, but not a Minolta initiate. Color Space? How do you turn
a D7i file into an Adobe RGB file, other than opening it, and
saving as?
What am I m issing? And is DIVU necessary? Looks pretty buggy to
me. We generally use Breezebrowser to look at our pics. BTW,
she won't be using any RAW modes, too slow. Sorry if this is
a dumb question, but I'm getting my first look at a Minolta, and
I love the way it's laid out, very smart. Thanks.

Art
 
Hi Chuck,

You are correct about the color space for the D7i when talking about either Tiff or jpeg output from the camera. These formats are mapped to sRGB. However, RAW is not mapped to any color space. To my knowledge D7i RAW images have a sufficiently broad enough color space to encompass AdobeRGB. Thus DIVU can process a RAW image and produce either a TIFF or JPEG in the AdobeRGB color space. In camera mapping to either sRGB or AdobeRGB for jpeg and TIFFs is a major feature of the D7Hi -- thus removeing the need to use DIVU for mapping of RAW files. If you take a close look at some of the sample images put up by Phil in his first look at the D7Hi, you will be able to see just examples of AdobeRGB color space jpeg images directly from the camera. Anyway, if I'm correct on the RAW color space for the D7i, then I think the rest of my statement is correct.

Jim
The mapping of color gamuts only occurs when the target colorspace
is smaller (e.g., AdobeRGB > sRGB) or they overlap (sRGB > CYMK).
How the colors are mapped from one space to the other depends on
the rendering intent setting and the color management engine.

See the color management section of
http://super.nova.org/PhotoClass for colorspace diagrams and 3D
animations of intersecting color spaces.

Chuck Gardner
I got a D7i for my girlfriend, about a month ago. We've been moving,
so she hasn't used it much, but now the time will be available,
I have a question, as a more experienced photographer than my
girlfriend, but not a Minolta initiate. Color Space? How do you turn
a D7i file into an Adobe RGB file, other than opening it, and
saving as?
What am I m issing? And is DIVU necessary? Looks pretty buggy to
me. We generally use Breezebrowser to look at our pics. BTW,
she won't be using any RAW modes, too slow. Sorry if this is
a dumb question, but I'm getting my first look at a Minolta, and
I love the way it's laid out, very smart. Thanks.

Art
--
Photography should be fun

http://www.pbase.com/jcollins
 
Jim,

Thanks for the additional information. I don't have a D7/D7i, and wasn't aware of how RAW files are handled. I'm seriously considering the D7Hi, just waiting first to see what other goodies are announced at Photokina.

Chuck Gardner
You are correct about the color space for the D7i when talking
about either Tiff or jpeg output from the camera. These formats
are mapped to sRGB. However, RAW is not mapped to any color space.
To my knowledge D7i RAW images have a sufficiently broad enough
color space to encompass AdobeRGB. Thus DIVU can process a RAW
image and produce either a TIFF or JPEG in the AdobeRGB color
space. In camera mapping to either sRGB or AdobeRGB for jpeg and
TIFFs is a major feature of the D7Hi -- thus removeing the need to
use DIVU for mapping of RAW files. If you take a close look at
some of the sample images put up by Phil in his first look at the
D7Hi, you will be able to see just examples of AdobeRGB color space
jpeg images directly from the camera. Anyway, if I'm correct on the
RAW color space for the D7i, then I think the rest of my statement
is correct.

Jim
The mapping of color gamuts only occurs when the target colorspace
is smaller (e.g., AdobeRGB > sRGB) or they overlap (sRGB > CYMK).
How the colors are mapped from one space to the other depends on
the rendering intent setting and the color management engine.

See the color management section of
http://super.nova.org/PhotoClass for colorspace diagrams and 3D
animations of intersecting color spaces.

Chuck Gardner
I got a D7i for my girlfriend, about a month ago. We've been moving,
so she hasn't used it much, but now the time will be available,
I have a question, as a more experienced photographer than my
girlfriend, but not a Minolta initiate. Color Space? How do you turn
a D7i file into an Adobe RGB file, other than opening it, and
saving as?
What am I m issing? And is DIVU necessary? Looks pretty buggy to
me. We generally use Breezebrowser to look at our pics. BTW,
she won't be using any RAW modes, too slow. Sorry if this is
a dumb question, but I'm getting my first look at a Minolta, and
I love the way it's laid out, very smart. Thanks.

Art
--
Photography should be fun

http://www.pbase.com/jcollins
 
So, are you saying the right approach for jpeg in PS7 is to:
1. Open file in PS7 using embeded profile
2. Assign to D7 profile
3. Convert to Adobe profile
4. Save file
The mapping of color gamuts only occurs when the target colorspace
is smaller (e.g., AdobeRGB > sRGB) or they overlap (sRGB > CYMK).
How the colors are mapped from one space to the other depends on
the rendering intent setting and the color management engine.

See the color management section of
http://super.nova.org/PhotoClass for colorspace diagrams and 3D
animations of intersecting color spaces.

Chuck Gardner
I got a D7i for my girlfriend, about a month ago. We've been moving,
so she hasn't used it much, but now the time will be available,
I have a question, as a more experienced photographer than my
girlfriend, but not a Minolta initiate. Color Space? How do you turn
a D7i file into an Adobe RGB file, other than opening it, and
saving as?
What am I m issing? And is DIVU necessary? Looks pretty buggy to
me. We generally use Breezebrowser to look at our pics. BTW,
she won't be using any RAW modes, too slow. Sorry if this is
a dumb question, but I'm getting my first look at a Minolta, and
I love the way it's laid out, very smart. Thanks.

Art
 
So, are you saying the right approach for jpeg in PS7 is to:
1. Open file in PS7 using embeded profile
2. Assign to D7 profile
3. Convert to Adobe profile
4. Save file
No advantage to doing this if you originally saved in the D7i as a jpg.
It's only worthwhile converting if you originally shot as a RAW file.

Just use it as a sRGB as the differences between the D7i colour space and sRGB are neglidgeable.
And is DIVU necessary? Looks pretty buggy to
Not necessary at all unless you are shooting in RAW. And other programs like image Shifter can convert the RAW file.
We generally use Breezebrowser to look at our pics. BTW,
If she doesn't use RAW she can't effectively use the Adobe colour space.
If she shoots as FINE and treats it as an sRGB she will be fine.
Sorry if this is
a dumb question, but I'm getting my first look at a Minolta, and
I love the way it's laid out, very smart. Thanks.

Art
Regards,
--
DaveMart
 
Dan,

Actually, colorspace "neophytism??" is not an uncommon problem. It is actually a rather complicated subject. Ultimately, it is all about having what you saw when you shot the picture show up right on your monitor, and then having what you see on your monitor (retouched or otherwise) show up in a print.

Others here may have links to online colorspace tutorials, but the best basic discussion that I have seen is in Ben Willmore's "Photoshop 7 (or 6) Studio Techniques". The first part of "Chapter 8 - Color Management" contains an excellent, product-neutral discussion of color management issues.

If you want more in-depth discussion on the topic, or you have a strong leaning toward print media, see Martin Evening's "Adobe Photoshop 7.0 (or 6.0) for Photographers". Chapter 4 is completely devoted to color management.

Finally, there is an on-line discussion from the ICC at:
http://www.color.org/whycolormanagement.pdf

Both of the books are excellent, and also devote an entire chapter to digital resolution - one of the other "less-than-obvious" issues in matching camera, monitor, and hard-copy.

If you are a Photoshop user, I would go get at least one of these. If not, take a lunch in the Cafe at your favorite bookstore sometime and read the resolution and color management chapters out of a shelf-copy, or visit the ICC site at http://www.color.org for more info.

Cheers,

Laird
 
Laird,

You have it backwards. Color mangagement, at least as it is used in professional graphic arts where it originated, is not used to match the image on the screen, or in print to "what you saw when you shot the picture. On the contrary, color management seeks to alter what was recorded, not what was seen, to fit the more limited reproduction capabilities of ink on paper so the final reproduction is a plausible facimile of the original scene.

The "magic" of color management is altering the colors and tones of a subject to fit the limitations of the output media in such a way that the eye perceives them in a way similar to the orginal scene. The eye and brain are highly adaptable and will readily adjust and accept the paper base tone as "white" and the darkest tone the inks can produce as "black". The eye and brain also keys on reference colors (e.g., blue sky, green grass, skin tone). As long as the reproduction gets those right the brain will accept the much smaller tonal range and color space of the CYMK ink on paper as "real".

Chuck Gardner
Dan,

Actually, colorspace "neophytism??" is not an uncommon problem. It
is actually a rather complicated subject. Ultimately, it is all
about having what you saw when you shot the picture show up right
on your monitor, and then having what you see on your monitor
(retouched or otherwise) show up in a print.

Others here may have links to online colorspace tutorials, but the
best basic discussion that I have seen is in Ben Willmore's
"Photoshop 7 (or 6) Studio Techniques". The first part of "Chapter
8 - Color Management" contains an excellent, product-neutral
discussion of color management issues.

If you want more in-depth discussion on the topic, or you have a
strong leaning toward print media, see Martin Evening's "Adobe
Photoshop 7.0 (or 6.0) for Photographers". Chapter 4 is completely
devoted to color management.

Finally, there is an on-line discussion from the ICC at:
http://www.color.org/whycolormanagement.pdf

Both of the books are excellent, and also devote an entire chapter
to digital resolution - one of the other "less-than-obvious" issues
in matching camera, monitor, and hard-copy.

If you are a Photoshop user, I would go get at least one of these.
If not, take a lunch in the Cafe at your favorite bookstore
sometime and read the resolution and color management chapters out
of a shelf-copy, or visit the ICC site at http://www.color.org for
more info.

Cheers,

Laird
 
Chuck,

I may be missing something here, but isn't "the eye perceived"
pretty much the same as "you saw" ? In fact, is it not more accurate, since
most sight is hosted in the brain, and the eye is mostly an input device?

Once you do that translation of your second paragraph, you get what I said, only with a lot more words and the implication of a workflow that, while it does not always have to be there, is the norm. I didn't get it backwards - I made it readable.
You have it backwards. Color mangagement, at least as it is used
in professional graphic arts where it originated, is not used to
match the image on the screen, or in print to "what you saw when
you shot the picture. On the contrary, color management seeks to
alter what was recorded, not what was seen, to fit the more limited
reproduction capabilities of ink on paper so the final reproduction
is a plausible facimile of the original scene.

The "magic" of color management is altering the colors and tones of
a subject to fit the limitations of the output media in such a way
that the eye perceives them in a way similar to the orginal scene.
The eye and brain are highly adaptable and will readily adjust and
accept the paper base tone as "white" and the darkest tone the inks
can produce as "black". The eye and brain also keys on reference
colors (e.g., blue sky, green grass, skin tone). As long as the
reproduction gets those right the brain will accept the much
smaller tonal range and color space of the CYMK ink on paper as
"real".

Chuck Gardner
Dan,

Actually, colorspace "neophytism??" is not an uncommon problem. It
is actually a rather complicated subject. Ultimately, it is all
about having what you saw when you shot the picture show up right
on your monitor, and then having what you see on your monitor
(retouched or otherwise) show up in a print.

Others here may have links to online colorspace tutorials, but the
best basic discussion that I have seen is in Ben Willmore's
"Photoshop 7 (or 6) Studio Techniques". The first part of "Chapter
8 - Color Management" contains an excellent, product-neutral
discussion of color management issues.

If you want more in-depth discussion on the topic, or you have a
strong leaning toward print media, see Martin Evening's "Adobe
Photoshop 7.0 (or 6.0) for Photographers". Chapter 4 is completely
devoted to color management.

Finally, there is an on-line discussion from the ICC at:
http://www.color.org/whycolormanagement.pdf

Both of the books are excellent, and also devote an entire chapter
to digital resolution - one of the other "less-than-obvious" issues
in matching camera, monitor, and hard-copy.

If you are a Photoshop user, I would go get at least one of these.
If not, take a lunch in the Cafe at your favorite bookstore
sometime and read the resolution and color management chapters out
of a shelf-copy, or visit the ICC site at http://www.color.org for
more info.

Cheers,

Laird
 
Laird,

You implied one should calibrate the reproduction workflow from orginal scene to monitor, to printer, while in professional graphic arts the reverse is what is done. First the gamut of the ink/paper/press is determined. Once that is done the camera input data is altered for output in PhotoShop or LinoColor via the CYMK press ICC profile when the file is separated for imagesetting. Calibrating the monitor this or that standard ensures that monitors view the photo similarly, but the image on the screen doesn't accurrate predict how it will appear when printed unless the soft proofing features of Photoshop are understood and used. Most print shops still use ColorMatchRGB for monitor calibration. It has a white point of 5000K and a gamma of 1.8 which is much closer to a printed sheet viewed under standard (5000K) illumination.

Consumer level reproduction with digicam and RGB driven printers is an entirely different ballgame and spliting hairs over color management is largely a waste of time and effort. Thanks to HP and Microsoft, which established sRGB to match the typical PC monitor and scanner, Joe Megapixel lives in an sRGB world with cameras, monitors, and printers optimized by the manufacturers for decent output by even the most clueless user.

Although prosumer cameras like the D7Hi are now adding RAW and AbobeRGB as a capture option I've yet to see a comparison of the maximum RAW gamut (i.e., what the CCD can record) overlayed with sRGB and AbobeRGB on a CIELab colorspace diagram. My guess is that the actual gamut the CCD can record is pretty close to sRGB, something which others have mentioned.

My advice to anyone not submitting photos for offset printing is to stick with sRGB.

My advice for anyone submitting photos for offset printing is to find out what RGB space the printer uses for its color editing workstations and use the same one when editing the photo. If possible also obtain the printers ICC profiles for the press / paper/ ink combo being used to print the job. Use it in Photoshop as the default CYMK profile and use it for softproofing.

Chuck Gardner
I may be missing something here, but isn't "the eye perceived"
pretty much the same as "you saw" ? In fact, is it not more
accurate, since
most sight is hosted in the brain, and the eye is mostly an input
device?

Once you do that translation of your second paragraph, you get what
I said, only with a lot more words and the implication of a
workflow that, while it does not always have to be there, is the
norm. I didn't get it backwards - I made it readable.
You have it backwards. Color mangagement, at least as it is used
in professional graphic arts where it originated, is not used to
match the image on the screen, or in print to "what you saw when
you shot the picture. On the contrary, color management seeks to
alter what was recorded, not what was seen, to fit the more limited
reproduction capabilities of ink on paper so the final reproduction
is a plausible facimile of the original scene.

The "magic" of color management is altering the colors and tones of
a subject to fit the limitations of the output media in such a way
that the eye perceives them in a way similar to the orginal scene.
The eye and brain are highly adaptable and will readily adjust and
accept the paper base tone as "white" and the darkest tone the inks
can produce as "black". The eye and brain also keys on reference
colors (e.g., blue sky, green grass, skin tone). As long as the
reproduction gets those right the brain will accept the much
smaller tonal range and color space of the CYMK ink on paper as
"real".

Chuck Gardner
Dan,

Actually, colorspace "neophytism??" is not an uncommon problem. It
is actually a rather complicated subject. Ultimately, it is all
about having what you saw when you shot the picture show up right
on your monitor, and then having what you see on your monitor
(retouched or otherwise) show up in a print.

Others here may have links to online colorspace tutorials, but the
best basic discussion that I have seen is in Ben Willmore's
"Photoshop 7 (or 6) Studio Techniques". The first part of "Chapter
8 - Color Management" contains an excellent, product-neutral
discussion of color management issues.

If you want more in-depth discussion on the topic, or you have a
strong leaning toward print media, see Martin Evening's "Adobe
Photoshop 7.0 (or 6.0) for Photographers". Chapter 4 is completely
devoted to color management.

Finally, there is an on-line discussion from the ICC at:
http://www.color.org/whycolormanagement.pdf

Both of the books are excellent, and also devote an entire chapter
to digital resolution - one of the other "less-than-obvious" issues
in matching camera, monitor, and hard-copy.

If you are a Photoshop user, I would go get at least one of these.
If not, take a lunch in the Cafe at your favorite bookstore
sometime and read the resolution and color management chapters out
of a shelf-copy, or visit the ICC site at http://www.color.org for
more info.

Cheers,

Laird
 
Original D7 images used the wider Minolta colour space
for all types of image. With the D7i they kept the RAW
space wide and went for a near-sRGB space for JPG/TIFF.

There is the option to download this near-sRGB space from Minolta
to use within ICC-aware apps such as Photoshop. Another option
is to install the PIM plugin for Photoshop from the Epson web site.

Intended to make you screen images match your Epson printouts
it does also add its own EpsonRGB colour space, which, again is probably
close to sRGB but may be worth a try - you don't need to have
an Epson printer to use the plugin.

With the D7HI I will be interested to see if the sRGB/AdobeRGB
option will also apply to RAW - does anyone know?

Lee
You are correct about the color space for the D7i when talking
about either Tiff or jpeg output from the camera. These formats
are mapped to sRGB. However, RAW is not mapped to any color space.
To my knowledge D7i RAW images have a sufficiently broad enough
color space to encompass AdobeRGB. Thus DIVU can process a RAW
image and produce either a TIFF or JPEG in the AdobeRGB color
space. In camera mapping to either sRGB or AdobeRGB for jpeg and
TIFFs is a major feature of the D7Hi -- thus removeing the need to
use DIVU for mapping of RAW files. If you take a close look at
some of the sample images put up by Phil in his first look at the
D7Hi, you will be able to see just examples of AdobeRGB color space
jpeg images directly from the camera. Anyway, if I'm correct on the
RAW color space for the D7i, then I think the rest of my statement
is correct.

Jim
The mapping of color gamuts only occurs when the target colorspace
is smaller (e.g., AdobeRGB > sRGB) or they overlap (sRGB > CYMK).
How the colors are mapped from one space to the other depends on
the rendering intent setting and the color management engine.

See the color management section of
http://super.nova.org/PhotoClass for colorspace diagrams and 3D
animations of intersecting color spaces.

Chuck Gardner
I got a D7i for my girlfriend, about a month ago. We've been moving,
so she hasn't used it much, but now the time will be available,
I have a question, as a more experienced photographer than my
girlfriend, but not a Minolta initiate. Color Space? How do you turn
a D7i file into an Adobe RGB file, other than opening it, and
saving as?
What am I m issing? And is DIVU necessary? Looks pretty buggy to
me. We generally use Breezebrowser to look at our pics. BTW,
she won't be using any RAW modes, too slow. Sorry if this is
a dumb question, but I'm getting my first look at a Minolta, and
I love the way it's laid out, very smart. Thanks.

Art
--
Photography should be fun

http://www.pbase.com/jcollins
 
Color Space?
If you can't tell the difference (and it's unlikely you can), just don't worry about colorspace. The D7i has a colorspace very close to sRGB, which in turn is already close to AdobeRGB. Conversion will alter the colors slightly, but in most cases you won't be able to tell the difference.

Just take pictures, open them in the image editor of your choice and do whatever you feel needs to be done (levels, sharpening etc.).

Have fun with your camera!

--
Jesper
 

Keyboard shortcuts

Back
Top