M4/3 rds competition and rumors

From the Ricoh forum
What do you make of this?

http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1013&message=33380681

Hi everybody.

Today I was in the Paris's photography salon. No breaking news, except from Ricoh.

They had a small stand, with just one guy. After some small talk about thier products, come the juicy part. Here's a transcript (from memory, but I remember pretty well):

Me : Is a remplacement for the CX200 coming ?

Ricoh guy : That's the end of this line, we are going to issue a small interchangable lens system instead. It will have a APS-C sized type sensor.
Me : Ah. It won't be as small and pockable anymore then ?
Ricoh guy : It will be as small as the GX.

Me : How is possible ? The bigger the sensor, the bigger the camera, isn't it ?
Rigoh guy : It depend where is the sensor.
Me : [!!! here it get totally crazy !!]
Him : We invented something new, there is a trick in the design of the camera.
Me : What lenses will it use, micro 4/3 ?

Him : No, your own lenses. Official annoncement is 10 of november. It will hit the store early december.

As I understand it, Ricoh will replace the GX line with a new line of digital cameras, the GZ line. There was a lot of talk about the new Ricoh GZ1 for about a year now. Pentax and Samsung engineers are working with Ricoh engineers on the new Ricoh GZ line of digital cameras. The GZ will be a small compact camera with interchangeable lenses. The type of lens mount has not been confirm yet, however, some people are thinking that it would be some type of the Pentax K mount that Ricoh SLR film camera has use for years. It will be a 14mp large CMOS sensor, not sure that it will be the APS-C sensor. It will have a built-in flash and a HD type of LCD for viewing and taking pictures. It might have an external viewfinder but not a built-in viewfinder. Ricoh suppose to announce the new GZ1 on or about the 12th of November and Ricoh want it in the retail stores by Christmas, in time for the holiday shopping season. How much of this is true, it's anyone guess.

I really hope future cameras like the Ricohs use the 'standard' m43 mount from Olympus and Panasonic. Maybe it's just wishful thinking...

I own a GX100 and loved it until getting my E-P1, so I'm interested to see what Ricoh brings out. Will not be changing systems now that I've invested though, unless there is a very, very good reason.
--
http://gakuranman.com

Gakuranman said:

I really hope future cameras like the Ricohs use the 'standard' m43 mount from Olympus and Panasonic. Maybe it's just wishful thinking...

Click to expand...

Two manufacturer's supporting a single mount makes it a "standard"?

Why would an APS-C camera use a small 4/3 format mount? Is it technically possible?

If I can use my Nikon glass on the Rico that would be interesting. If I have to buy Rico/Pentax lenses not interested at all.

How long until Nikon comes out with one?

David Banner said:

David Banner said:

I really hope future cameras like the Ricohs use the 'standard' m43 mount from Olympus and Panasonic. Maybe it's just wishful thinking...

Click to expand...

Two manufacturer's supporting a single mount makes it a "standard"?

Click to expand...

I was just going by the fact that two manufacturers support one type of mount, which is the currently the most and hence could be thought of as 'standard'. Also it is the first mount of its type and has set the standard for others to follow.

David Banner said:

Why would an APS-C camera use a small 4/3 format mount? Is it technically possible?

Click to expand...

Good point - I hadn't considered this.

David Banner said:

If I can use my Nikon glass on the Rico that would be interesting. If I have to buy Rico/Pentax lenses not interested at all.

How long until Nikon comes out with one?

Click to expand...

I read Nikon were not planning anything soon...

--
http://gakuranman.com

Tremor16 said:

Gakuranman said:

Why would an APS-C camera use a small 4/3 format mount? Is it technically possible?

Click to expand...

Good point - I hadn't considered this.

Click to expand...

A quick Google shows this page has a more details on the patents:

http://nikonrumors.com/2009/10/16/its-a-nikon-patents-friday-nikon-mirrorless-interchangeable-lens-camera.aspx
A 17mm diagonal is mentioned.

As 1" sensors have a 16mm diagonal ( http://www.dpreview.com/learn/?/Glossary/Camera_System/sensor_sizes_01.htm ) it would look like this rumoured new system is 1", not APS.

This would have a double advantage for Nikon:

1: it could use (via adaptors) all the FT (and possibly µFT) glass without the sort of size disparity FT/µFT has when using FF and APS lenses.
2: it could use (via adaptors) all those lenses (B mount, etc.) that work on 1".

Which means each manufacturer will want a unique lens mount so they can sell you their lenses.

Also, I don't belive it is physically possible to cover a APS-C sensor with lens small enough to make the camera as small as a Ricoh compact camera. The APS-C sensor is 40% larger than a 4/3 sensor, and this means lenses can't be very much smaller than the current Nikon DX or Canon EFS lenses.
--
Marty
http://www.flickr.com/photos/marty4650/sets/72157606210120132/show/
Olympus E-30, E-510,
Zuiko 14-42mm, 14-54mm II, 40-150mm, 70-300mm, 50mm f/2.0 macro

The whole point of the new system is small and compact- so relying on old SLR lenses is only going to handicap the new system; usually the manufacturer that does not care about old mount compatibility wins as it makes it easier to innovate. Case in point: Canon ditched its old mount and was able to develop EOS mount as a dominant mount in sports photography. Olympus had to make compromises to make the EP1 backwards compatible with its 4/3 lenses, and Panasonic was able to throughly outclass the Olympus in AF performance (and presumably Olympus has an edge as it has been making good cameras for a long time). I consider the ability to use older mount lenses a bonus, not a requirement, but I try to choose the system based on the available dedicated lenses for that particular mount.

It is hard to see Ricoh/Pentax APS-C line competing with m43, as larger sensor will result in either larger cameras or dimmer glass. However, Ricoh knows how to make cameras and Pentax has a series of Limited lenses that are very, very good; that may be a very potent combination. One strike against this pairing is that neither makes video cameras, so they may not have access to good CD-AF technology. Interesting times.

But kind of related nevertheless.

David Banner said:

Why would an APS-C camera use a small 4/3 format mount? Is it technically possible?

Click to expand...

The current APS-C cameras all use a mount designed around 135 format (FF), so there is absolutely room for reduction, and it would make sense to save on space if a new APS-C standard is designed from the ground up. How much reduction depends on the compromises (and challenges) a manufacturer is willing to accept.

--
-CW

よしよし、今日も生きのいい魂が手に入ったな

Chez Wimpy said:

David Banner said:

Why would an APS-C camera use a small 4/3 format mount? Is it technically possible?

Click to expand...

The current APS-C cameras all use a mount designed around 135 format (FF), so there is absolutely room for reduction, and it would make sense to save on space if a new APS-C standard is designed from the ground up. How much reduction depends on the compromises (and challenges) a manufacturer is willing to accept.

Click to expand...

. . . This an interesting topic for speculation about what might be coming down the road for mirrorless compacts with interchangable lens systems to compete with mFT.

. . . Canon in particular is doing very well holding on to its marketshare of entry level small DSLRs right now and you can get a $600 DREBEL kit at Walmart if you're just a walkin who suddenly wants a 'real camera'. They sell a lot of those in that manner and it works for them.

. . . If mFT ever reaches a point where Canon is looking at an erosion in that advantage, well, they could concievably become motivated to counter with their own version of mFT. They are seemingly lethargic when it comes to making a big change in marketing like that in recent years but that's just a market leader's reaction that you'll always see when a company is having a lot of success in the marketplace.

. . . To create a new mount for a mirrorless camera in APS-C and reingineer their line of EF-lenses to match with it would be a huge undertaking but they are a large player in photography and their APS-C sensors are very good at up to 1600 ISO and who knows how good the next generation of Canon sensors are going to be. Initial reports on the new APS-H sensor in the newly announced 1D4 have to be verified in real life by actual testing by the independent review sites but the claim right now is that its making 3200 ISO images that are comparable in IQ to what the 1D3 was getting at 1600.

. . . A small APS-C camera without a mirror box is definitely something that they could accomplish if they became convinced that they were under pressure from mFT at the large volume reatilers that they depend on. If this ever happens within the next few years, Pany/Oly better have the sensor technology and out-of-camera jpeg IQ that can match what Canon and Nikon is doing already with their sensor technology. Maybe not so much to compete with 1st timers but definitely to win the competition for dollars from existing DSLR users looking to this smaller format form factor that mFT has introduced.

. . . . An APS-C based small camera would likely be about like a Sigma DP2 I'm guessing in size and weight with the huge advantage of being able to use a wide range of EF-S style lenses. Non of my current Canon lenses would ever be useable without an adapter so I'd be very reluctant to switch away from mFT to buy into it myself. Once I've spent more than maybe $2500? in the next year on mFT equipment, I can't see ever changing to some brand new system for anything but the most compelling reasons. Pany/Oly are doing a great job upgrading their technology right now and if a new player arrives, that new player will have to do something really spectacular to make someone like me change directions again. Just some thoughts and day dreaming here. I might be completely wrong about all of this!

monkeysflingdoodoo said:

Him : We invented something new, there is a trick in the design of the camera.
Me : What lenses will it use, micro 4/3 ?

Him : No, your own lenses. Official annoncement is 10 of november. It will hit the store early december.

Click to expand...

Put some optics between "your own lenses" and the sensor to make it smaller?

Chez Wimpy said:

Chez Wimpy said:

Why would an APS-C camera use a small 4/3 format mount? Is it technically possible?

Click to expand...

The current APS-C cameras all use a mount designed around 135 format (FF), so there is absolutely room for reduction, and it would make sense to save on space if a new APS-C standard is designed from the ground up. How much reduction depends on the compromises (and challenges) a manufacturer is willing to accept.

Click to expand...

MFT wasn't designed based on 35mm FF format. So unless they purposely made MFT bigger than it needs to be, an APS-C lens isn't going to work with a MFT mount.

of course its perfectly possible to stuff an APS-C into something like the Ricoh GX , one just had to take a look at the original GR-1 film compact to understand ( that camera had to had space for film canister, motor to wind the film and then some where the digital won't be needing )

In a way its not a surprise should that happen. In a way the Micro 4/3 is sort of repeating what Contax G did to film, providing alternative form factor and mode of operation.

The like of Ricoh and Fujifilm sure would benefit from such entries as they had no prior product that are in that market sect. This X'mas season might turn out to be a bumper , and certainly 2009 had turn out being a bumper year despite the economic downturn

--

• Franka -

Tim in upstate NY said:

. . . . An APS-C based small camera would likely be about like a Sigma DP2 I'm guessing in size and weight with the huge advantage of being able to use a wide range of EF-S style lenses. Non of my current Canon lenses would ever be useable without an adapter so I'd be very reluctant to switch away from mFT to buy into it myself. Once I've spent more than maybe $2500? in the next year on mFT equipment, I can't see ever changing to some brand new system for anything but the most compelling reasons. Pany/Oly are doing a great job upgrading their technology right now and if a new player arrives, that new player will have to do something really spectacular to make someone like me change directions again. Just some thoughts and day dreaming here. I might be completely wrong about all of this!

Click to expand...

I have used a few of my EF mounts on my G1 with EOS to m4/3rds adaptor. It doesn't make a lot of sense, even my small primes, except for a niche lens like my 45 tilt shift or Lensbaby (no matter what mount I would buy it in, still would need an adaptor).

I still have my Canon kit--which includes a 5D, 400D, 10DIR and lots of lenses and would def., like you, not switch again (I now shoot more with the m4/3rds than the Canons) because Panny and Oly are moving right along with lens development, new bodies, etc. It WOULD have to be spectacular to get me to change--unlikely in the next few years. But--I'm willing to be surprised too LOL.

--
Diane B
http://www.pbase.com/picnic
G1 gallery http://www.pbase.com/picnic/temp_g1

monkeysflingdoodoo said:

Me : How is possible ? The bigger the sensor, the bigger the camera, isn't it ?
Rigoh guy : It depend where is the sensor.
Me : [!!! here it get totally crazy !!]
Him : We invented something new, there is a trick in the design of the camera.

Click to expand...

It appears Ricoh may have discovered one of the solutions I alluded to in my Compact Challenge article a few years back.

--
Thom Hogan
author, Complete Guides to Nikon bodies (21 and counting)
http://www.bythom.com

Diane B said:

I have used a few of my EF mounts on my G1 with EOS to m4/3rds adaptor. It doesn't make a lot of sense, even my small primes, except for a niche lens like my 45 tilt shift or Lensbaby (no matter what mount I would buy it in, still would need an adaptor).

Click to expand...

. . Do you have a link or something that I could use to see what EOS-mFT adapter that you're using? Been looking at a lot of Ebay adapters recently in all the various lens/camera combinations and noticed that some of them have electronic focus confirm. Is that a possibility with EOS---> mFT ?

monkeysflingdoodoo said:

Ricoh guy : ... we are going to issue a small interchangable lens system instead. It will have a APS-C sized type sensor.
Ricoh guy : It will be as small as the GX.
Me : What lenses will it use ...
Him : No, your own lenses.

Click to expand...

Great: sounds like a body as small as the GX, but using existing big old APS-C DSLR lenses!

Memo to EVIL camera designers:
It's the size of the whole camera that counts!
People don't carry just lensless bodies.

P. S. Photorumors has a similar rumor, adding use of the Pentax K mount:

http://photorumors.com/2009/09/02/rumor-ricoh-is-working-on-a-compact-camera-based-on-pentaxs-k-mount/
So it would need an in-body AF motor?
--
Smaller lenses, better in low light, more telephoto reach: choose any TWO.

BJL said:

Great: sounds like a body as small as the GX, but using existing big old APS-C DSLR lenses!

Click to expand...

Ever seen the Pentax DA Limited "pancakes" ?

Thom Hogan said:

monkeysflingdoodoo said:

Me : How is possible ? The bigger the sensor, the bigger the camera, isn't it ?
Rigoh guy : It depend where is the sensor.
Me : [!!! here it get totally crazy !!]
Him : We invented something new, there is a trick in the design of the camera.

Click to expand...

It appears Ricoh may have discovered one of the solutions I alluded to in my Compact Challenge article a few years back.

--
Thom Hogan
author, Complete Guides to Nikon bodies (21 and counting)
http://www.bythom.com

Click to expand...

Part of this fractured rumor is that the sensor will not be where we expect it to be. This would imply a bent/folded optical path, which is certainly a way to deal with the long lens registrations of SLR lenses and produce a thin body.
Optical Origami?
--
Bob