Upgrade strategies?

DMillier said:

Michael Brown said:

1) Live preview LCD - I don't use it much but when I do, mainly as
a waist level viewfinder, it's such a great feature.

2) Almost silent operation. After using 35mm SLRs for 20 years the
quiteness of the E10 has really impressed me.

The Exx manages to have these features whilst still being a DSLR in
all other respects (particularly proper optical viewfinder).

If I 'upgraded' to a D-something I would really miss these two
features. The whole moving mirror concept just isn't really needed
anymore for digital SLRs and I hope that the OlyDak manages to make
do without this 35mm anachronism aswell.

For the time being I'm very, very happy with my E-10 and am not
planning an upgrade any time soon.

Michael.

Beth said:

Okay Folks,
All this interest in Photokina implies that I'm not the only one on
this board who has an upgrade in mind.

I'm in no rush--I don't think. Unless the shutter goes on the E
again, I think I can wait 'til the 'Angel of No-Coiincidences'
signals me that it's time..the right camera has come along!

My brother thinks I should buy into a used D30 as a stop-gap, but
I'm not sure that's such a great idea. The smoothness of the D30
image is tempting, but spending $1000 (or more) on a camera that
marginally improves what I can do with the E makes little sense to
me. He's thinking a D30 will make it easier for me to wait for the
'right' camera to come along.

I'm hoping to hold onto the E and get the kind of service out of it
that will make it possible for me to wait several months to a
couple of years if necessary.

I'm hoping that Oly comes out with something tempting! If it does,
I can wait for the price to drop some, I think.

Anyone else thinking long and hard about upgrades too? What are YOU
thinking? Care to share?

Beth

--
Olympus E-10, TCON, MCON, WCON and Fl-40
Gallery: http://www.pbase.com/galleries/cokids

Click to expand...

--
http://www.amarelo.jazznet.pt/photos/

Click to expand...

Click to expand...

Vladmir Slominski said:

I have never been into film and I often wonder if they were
infected with upgraditis like Ive witnessed in 25 years of computer
engineering, and now almost 14 years of digital photography (Canon
Zapshot was my 1st digi). I tend to believe that this case of
upgraditis is of a digital nature. Technology is so overwhelming
that many are uneasy with almost any purchase they make because the
grass is always greener on the other side of the digital fence.
Then you get there only to find that the next digital device has
it's share of digital drawbacks as well. Since every digital
product ever marketed was rushed to market with a known quantity of
flaws they are gambling wont come back to bite them and my personal
experience is every device Ive ever had was uniquely quirky.

Digital Quality and Versatility in any medium comes down to one
thing; how much bucks you got? But guaranteed it will have a known
quantity of flaws as well. I was so disappointed in my e10 until I
learned it and then since I'm a fault tolerant computer engineer, I
went and got an e20 (mission critical equipment!). Beware of
upgraditis unless you have a deep wallet.

vlad

Click to expand...

DMillier said:

The moving mirror thing isn't just a 35mm thing - it's also used on
the Pentax 6*7. And the semi silvered fixed reflector isn't an E10
innovation - canon have used it too on 35mm bodies. It has
advantages and disadvantages like any other system.

Click to expand...

Terry Thorn said:

DMillier said:

The moving mirror thing isn't just a 35mm thing - it's also used on
the Pentax 6*7. And the semi silvered fixed reflector isn't an E10
innovation - canon have used it too on 35mm bodies. It has
advantages and disadvantages like any other system.

Click to expand...

Get him DMiller! Don't let Mike get away with saying good things
about the E-10!!! We simply CANNOT allow that to happen, can we? ;-)

Click to expand...

Terry Thorn said:

Vladmir Slominski said:

I have never been into film and I often wonder if they were
infected with upgraditis like Ive witnessed in 25 years of computer
engineering, and now almost 14 years of digital photography (Canon
Zapshot was my 1st digi). I tend to believe that this case of
upgraditis is of a digital nature. Technology is so overwhelming
that many are uneasy with almost any purchase they make because the
grass is always greener on the other side of the digital fence.
Then you get there only to find that the next digital device has
it's share of digital drawbacks as well. Since every digital
product ever marketed was rushed to market with a known quantity of
flaws they are gambling wont come back to bite them and my personal
experience is every device Ive ever had was uniquely quirky.

Digital Quality and Versatility in any medium comes down to one
thing; how much bucks you got? But guaranteed it will have a known
quantity of flaws as well. I was so disappointed in my e10 until I
learned it and then since I'm a fault tolerant computer engineer, I
went and got an e20 (mission critical equipment!). Beware of
upgraditis unless you have a deep wallet.

vlad

Click to expand...

I believe some of the "upgraditiis" we're experiencing here can be
attributed to some of the people who've moved on to another camera
but have not moved on to the forum devoted to that camera and
insist of glorifying it here against their old E-xx cameras. By
constantly harping on the E-xx's shortcomings and expressing their
newfound love with the new machine, they tend to drag the morale
down here. They've even attempted to depict Olympus as a dying
company and scare people off the E-10/20 by making claims that the
shutter will fail after so many operations. They don't want you to
rebut them or "stifle their freedom" to say these things here but
you can't say anything in the least bit derrogatory about their new
camera without them coming down on you. All you gotta do is say
that you prefer your E-xx over a Nikon and you'll have DMiller on
ya in a heartbeat.

Click to expand...

DMillier said:

Ah Terry,

Your comments are just as absolutely, predictably, continously
wrong about me as Stephen Jay Gould's theories are about Natural
Selection...

I corrected an error - the pellicule approach is not an Olympus
innovation.

This is not attacking the E10 in anyway. Perhaps you should look
closely at your own psychological motivations for seeing every
comment that is not 100% positive as being 100% negative - there is
neutral ground you know.

As it happens, I like the E10 way of doing things - you avoid the
noise and vibaration of a moving mirror and you get the benefits of
LCD preview. Coupled with the movable LCD this is good - it allows
you to use the camera unobtrusively and from different viewpoints.

However it is not without compromise (like all engineering). You
lose a significant proportion of light so either the viewfinder is
less bright than it should be or the effective ISO is reduced (or
both).

Swings and roundabouts.

Now, of course, you are going to show what a sensible chap you are
by acknowledging the truth of what I have said and retracting your
sniping comment....aren't you?

Click to expand...

David M. said:

I don't really get it either.
Beth keeps on saying she is'nt overly concerned with upgrading yet
she keeps posting these upgeade threads. Among so many others who
reply within them saying basically the same thing over and over.
It's ok, no problems with feeling a need to upgrade if one needs to
professionally or for their own needs. I don't, you don't and
that's ok too. But this constant harping on and on about it is
pointless.
I've been a member of a website devoted to the Canon GL1 camcorder
for some time.... http://www.gl1-411.com and for a long while before the
GL2 actually hit the market there was lots of speculation on it.
But you did'nt see the kind of repetitive posting of redundant
threads concerning "upgrading" or of the likes of "if Canon does'nt
listen I'm going for a Sony!!". People instead talked about what
they had now, how to make the best use of a still otherwise awesome
cam and occasionally compared it to other models mainly for the
benefit of new members who asked. None of this constant upgrade
babble just for the sake of it and for the sake of reading their
own posts. And the ones who did move on to more robust systems did
so with class and finesse without coming back solely to validate
and show off what they try to believe is a better camera.
This forum has and is losing it's interest for me. Most of the
coherent and especially RELEVANT information concerning Exx's seems
to have been hashed over and discussed by now, and can readily be
found on the search engine. Although creative discussions and
new-comer questions would never exhaust and should'nt, they seem to
be far outweighed by this neverending "upgraditis". Seems the
marketing departments of Nikon and Canon have really hit their
marks!!
Ahh, oh well. I'm happy with my cams, so it does'nt matter. Let
the debate continue. In the meantime, those of us who make our
cameras work for us will be shooting while the rest will be
drooling.

D.

Click to expand...

Terry Thorn said:

DMillier said:

Ah Terry,

Your comments are just as absolutely, predictably, continously
wrong about me as Stephen Jay Gould's theories are about Natural
Selection...

I corrected an error - the pellicule approach is not an Olympus
innovation.

This is not attacking the E10 in anyway. Perhaps you should look
closely at your own psychological motivations for seeing every
comment that is not 100% positive as being 100% negative - there is
neutral ground you know.

As it happens, I like the E10 way of doing things - you avoid the
noise and vibaration of a moving mirror and you get the benefits of
LCD preview. Coupled with the movable LCD this is good - it allows
you to use the camera unobtrusively and from different viewpoints.

However it is not without compromise (like all engineering). You
lose a significant proportion of light so either the viewfinder is
less bright than it should be or the effective ISO is reduced (or
both).

Swings and roundabouts.

Now, of course, you are going to show what a sensible chap you are
by acknowledging the truth of what I have said and retracting your
sniping comment....aren't you?

Click to expand...

My point is that you feel you MUST not let anyone get away with
saying anything nice about the E-10/20 unless their spelling,
punctuation, and grammar is correct and they don't have their
"facts" exactly right according to your parameters. I don't see any
real excuse to your jumping on Mike's statements other than trying
to pour water on his enthusiasm. So what if the moving mirror is
used on cameras other than a 35mm? That insignificant point had
nothing to do with the gist of what he was saying. Do you really
believe that you alone knew that particular fact? I knew it and I'm
sure the others here did too. So what if Canon did use the same
basic technology as Olympus' prism? Did he STATE that it was an
Olympus innovation? Nope. There was no need to make such a
statement other than to throw water on a potential glowing ember of
Mike's enthusiasm for HIS camera. Don't you have anything BETTER to
do than to police the Olympus SLR Forum for "inaccuracies"? Why
aren't you out using that fabulous D100 of yours? Do you actually
use it or is it merely a status symbol?

Click to expand...

Terry Thorn said:

David M. said:

I don't really get it either.
Beth keeps on saying she is'nt overly concerned with upgrading yet
she keeps posting these upgeade threads. Among so many others who
reply within them saying basically the same thing over and over.
It's ok, no problems with feeling a need to upgrade if one needs to
professionally or for their own needs. I don't, you don't and
that's ok too. But this constant harping on and on about it is
pointless.
I've been a member of a website devoted to the Canon GL1 camcorder
for some time.... http://www.gl1-411.com and for a long while before the
GL2 actually hit the market there was lots of speculation on it.
But you did'nt see the kind of repetitive posting of redundant
threads concerning "upgrading" or of the likes of "if Canon does'nt
listen I'm going for a Sony!!". People instead talked about what
they had now, how to make the best use of a still otherwise awesome
cam and occasionally compared it to other models mainly for the
benefit of new members who asked. None of this constant upgrade
babble just for the sake of it and for the sake of reading their
own posts. And the ones who did move on to more robust systems did
so with class and finesse without coming back solely to validate
and show off what they try to believe is a better camera.
This forum has and is losing it's interest for me. Most of the
coherent and especially RELEVANT information concerning Exx's seems
to have been hashed over and discussed by now, and can readily be
found on the search engine. Although creative discussions and
new-comer questions would never exhaust and should'nt, they seem to
be far outweighed by this neverending "upgraditis". Seems the
marketing departments of Nikon and Canon have really hit their
marks!!
Ahh, oh well. I'm happy with my cams, so it does'nt matter. Let
the debate continue. In the meantime, those of us who make our
cameras work for us will be shooting while the rest will be
drooling.

D.

Click to expand...

I believe part of these type messages can be attributed to the fact
that Photokina is so near and Olympus is expected to make a big
announcement. For some people, this is quite exciting and
speculation is to be expected. It does seem to me, however, that
some people are placing too much emphasis on Olympus' anticipated
impact on the marketplace which seems to be directly linked to
their enthusiasm for their E-10/20. I also believe that these
people who've bought other cameras but choose to "live" here are
somewhat responsible for causing people to feel they MUST buy
another camera. The continual droning that the E-10/20 aren't as
good as these other cameras does have it's effect over time. Take
DMiller's post to Mike Brown, for example. Mike likes the silent
operation of his E-10 because it doesn't use a moving mirror.
That's a point in the E-10's favor so it MUST be contested and he
wasted no time in doing so.

Click to expand...

Michael Brown said:

Michael.

DMillier said:

Michael Brown said:

1) Live preview LCD - I don't use it much but when I do, mainly as
a waist level viewfinder, it's such a great feature.

2) Almost silent operation. After using 35mm SLRs for 20 years the
quiteness of the E10 has really impressed me.

The Exx manages to have these features whilst still being a DSLR in
all other respects (particularly proper optical viewfinder).

If I 'upgraded' to a D-something I would really miss these two
features. The whole moving mirror concept just isn't really needed
anymore for digital SLRs and I hope that the OlyDak manages to make
do without this 35mm anachronism aswell.

For the time being I'm very, very happy with my E-10 and am not
planning an upgrade any time soon.

Michael.

Beth said:

Okay Folks,
All this interest in Photokina implies that I'm not the only one on
this board who has an upgrade in mind.

I'm in no rush--I don't think. Unless the shutter goes on the E
again, I think I can wait 'til the 'Angel of No-Coiincidences'
signals me that it's time..the right camera has come along!

My brother thinks I should buy into a used D30 as a stop-gap, but
I'm not sure that's such a great idea. The smoothness of the D30
image is tempting, but spending $1000 (or more) on a camera that
marginally improves what I can do with the E makes little sense to
me. He's thinking a D30 will make it easier for me to wait for the
'right' camera to come along.

I'm hoping to hold onto the E and get the kind of service out of it
that will make it possible for me to wait several months to a
couple of years if necessary.

I'm hoping that Oly comes out with something tempting! If it does,
I can wait for the price to drop some, I think.

Anyone else thinking long and hard about upgrades too? What are YOU
thinking? Care to share?

Beth

--
Olympus E-10, TCON, MCON, WCON and Fl-40
Gallery: http://www.pbase.com/galleries/cokids

Click to expand...

--
http://www.amarelo.jazznet.pt/photos/

Click to expand...

Click to expand...

--
http://www.amarelo.jazznet.pt/photos/

Click to expand...

TonyK_in_Texas said:

Actually I side with you on this issue. I read your posts and his
responses. You predicted he would ignore the good things you were
saying and focus only on what he wanted. It is a sad statement
though.

I have seen the little fights between Terry and yourself and stayed
away. I cannot though let you think you are the only one who sees
the good and the bad of the E series camera. And the statement
about this being an upgrade thread holds true. We are discussing
what Beth should do, as it relates to several other members who
currently have E series systems and are looking for the next step.

Your initial comment to Michael Brown was to correct an error which
could lead some folks astray. Folks who might not have known
better. You meant, and I believe Michael Brown took it the way it
was meant, to correct a factual statement.

It seemed Terry's comments were directed at you without relating to
the thread at hand. And your initial statement to Michael Brown
did not undermine his statements about the positive aspects fo the
E series camera, one of which is very nice... the live preview.

So before this degrades in to a flame fest, lets get back on track
of what to upgrade to IF we are again disappointed by Oly.

I for one will look more strongly at the D100 or the D60. I had
the Fuji S2 for 24 hours and returned it. The dual battery system
and using AA batteries were not what I wanted, though I was on
record at one time as thinking it might be a good thing.

--
TonyK

Click to expand...

TonyK_in_Texas said:

Actually I side with you on this issue. I read your posts and his
responses. You predicted he would ignore the good things you were
saying and focus only on what he wanted. It is a sad statement
though.

I have seen the little fights between Terry and yourself and stayed
away. I cannot though let you think you are the only one who sees
the good and the bad of the E series camera. And the statement
about this being an upgrade thread holds true. We are discussing
what Beth should do, as it relates to several other members who
currently have E series systems and are looking for the next step.

Your initial comment to Michael Brown was to correct an error which
could lead some folks astray. Folks who might not have known
better. You meant, and I believe Michael Brown took it the way it
was meant, to correct a factual statement.

It seemed Terry's comments were directed at you without relating to
the thread at hand. And your initial statement to Michael Brown
did not undermine his statements about the positive aspects fo the
E series camera, one of which is very nice... the live preview.

So before this degrades in to a flame fest, lets get back on track
of what to upgrade to IF we are again disappointed by Oly.

I for one will look more strongly at the D100 or the D60. I had
the Fuji S2 for 24 hours and returned it. The dual battery system
and using AA batteries were not what I wanted, though I was on
record at one time as thinking it might be a good thing.

--
TonyK

Click to expand...

DMillier said:

Thanks Tony.

I obviously can't speak for the S2 or the D60 as I have never used
them but I doubt if there is any significant difference in image
quality between them so it really boils down to choice of lens
mount and features.

For what it's worth, the S2 and D100 share a Nikon mount with the
Kodak line so you have a choice of 3 manufacturers using the same
lens sytem. And as Jono has pointed out, all the nikon bodies have
used the same size sensor which at least leaves open the
possibility of dedicated digital lenses...

On the other hand the D30/D60 cmos sensor is very low noise...

And of course, as well as the possibility of the olydak, there is
still the intriguing SD9 and its Foveon sensor. Surely it must be
making an appearance soon...

Click to expand...

Beth said:

I would like to expand on your comment when you said, "So before
this degrades in to a flame fest, lets get back on track of what to
upgrade to IF we are again disappointed by Oly."

I would like to say that I am/was not disappointed by Oly. I feel
that my needs have changed. The E10 was just what i needed when I
purchased it a year ago. It no longer is perfect for my needs. The
camera didn't disapoint and neither did Oly. I'm hoping they'll
come out with something at Photokina that WILL meet my needs.

Fingers crossed,
Beth

TonyK_in_Texas said:

Actually I side with you on this issue. I read your posts and his
responses. You predicted he would ignore the good things you were
saying and focus only on what he wanted. It is a sad statement
though.

I have seen the little fights between Terry and yourself and stayed
away. I cannot though let you think you are the only one who sees
the good and the bad of the E series camera. And the statement
about this being an upgrade thread holds true. We are discussing
what Beth should do, as it relates to several other members who
currently have E series systems and are looking for the next step.

Your initial comment to Michael Brown was to correct an error which
could lead some folks astray. Folks who might not have known
better. You meant, and I believe Michael Brown took it the way it
was meant, to correct a factual statement.

It seemed Terry's comments were directed at you without relating to
the thread at hand. And your initial statement to Michael Brown
did not undermine his statements about the positive aspects fo the
E series camera, one of which is very nice... the live preview.

So before this degrades in to a flame fest, lets get back on track
of what to upgrade to IF we are again disappointed by Oly.

I for one will look more strongly at the D100 or the D60. I had
the Fuji S2 for 24 hours and returned it. The dual battery system
and using AA batteries were not what I wanted, though I was on
record at one time as thinking it might be a good thing.

--
TonyK

Click to expand...

--
Olympus E-10, TCON, MCON, WCON and Fl-40
Gallery: http://www.pbase.com/galleries/cokids

Click to expand...

DavidMillier said:

DMillier responds...

Read that series of posts again.

Click to expand...

DavidMillier said:

My comments are either factual or a balanced opinion of the
strengths and weaknesses of the pellicule approach. They are
certainly not an attempt at poring cold water on the E10.

Click to expand...

DavidMillier said:

As I have said to you at least 50 times, it's a good camera and no
one should have any need to feel depressed about owning one. It's
YOU, not me, that keeps promoting this view!

Click to expand...

DavidMillier said:

I personally don't really feel that the E10/20 need defending quite
as much as you obviously do - their strengths (and weaknesses) have
been well understood for a long time.

Click to expand...

DavidMillier said:

However you seem to think that no one is allowed to admit that the
series have ANY weaknesses. Ridiculous, and guaranteed to give
newcomers a false impression of what they can and can't do well.
Loosen up a bit.

Click to expand...

TonyK_in_Texas said:

Actually I side with you on this issue. I read your posts and his
responses. You predicted he would ignore the good things you were
saying and focus only on what he wanted. It is a sad statement
though.

Click to expand...

TonyK_in_Texas said:

I have seen the little fights between Terry and yourself and stayed
away. I cannot though let you think you are the only one who sees
the good and the bad of the E series camera. And the statement
about this being an upgrade thread holds true. We are discussing
what Beth should do, as it relates to several other members who
currently have E series systems and are looking for the next step.

Click to expand...

TonyK_in_Texas said:

Your initial comment to Michael Brown was to correct an error which
could lead some folks astray. Folks who might not have known
better. You meant, and I believe Michael Brown took it the way it
was meant, to correct a factual statement.

Click to expand...

TonyK_in_Texas said:

It seemed Terry's comments were directed at you without relating to
the thread at hand. And your initial statement to Michael Brown
did not undermine his statements about the positive aspects fo the
E series camera, one of which is very nice... the live preview.

Click to expand...

Terry Thorn said:

TonyK_in_Texas said:

Actually I side with you on this issue. I read your posts and his
responses. You predicted he would ignore the good things you were
saying and focus only on what he wanted. It is a sad statement
though.

Click to expand...

Actually, since you're also looking to move to another camera, I'm
not surprised you agree with him. Miller does say some nice things
about the E-10/20 but it's usually followed by a "But" and then the
damning by faint praise begins. And he usually is cajoled into
saying them anyway when confronted.

Member said:

I have seen the little fights between Terry and yourself and stayed
away. I cannot though let you think you are the only one who sees
the good and the bad of the E series camera. And the statement
about this being an upgrade thread holds true. We are discussing
what Beth should do, as it relates to several other members who
currently have E series systems and are looking for the next step.

Click to expand...

Member said:

Your initial comment to Michael Brown was to correct an error which
could lead some folks astray. Folks who might not have known
better. You meant, and I believe Michael Brown took it the way it
was meant, to correct a factual statement.

Click to expand...

Please elaborate how Mike's statements could've led someone
"astray"? The intent of his message, as I read it, was that he
liked the nearly slient operation of his E-10 and he liked the live
preview function which the other DSLRs don't have. Are these points
incorrect? The current crop of DSLRs DO provide a live preview on
their LCDs? They do operate without the mirror slap noise? Would it
have been more acceptable if he's simply left out the part about
the "35mm anachronism"? If you want to get technical about it, the
moving mirror concept was also used on the Mamiya M645 too and not
just the Pentax. Miller's "balanced" response to Mike came only
AFTER I said something to him.

Member said:

It seemed Terry's comments were directed at you without relating to
the thread at hand. And your initial statement to Michael Brown
did not undermine his statements about the positive aspects fo the
E series camera, one of which is very nice... the live preview.

Click to expand...

Only because he couldn't.

Click to expand...