New Oly dSLR - Successor to the UZI?

Shrinking Violet said:

I think this new camera will be a total failure if they don't make
older OM lenses compatable with it. This new dSLR is most likely a
catch-up manuever to try and compete on the same level as the Canon
D60, the Fuji S2/Nikon, and the up coming Sigma Foveon dSLR.

Click to expand...

If the advantage of this camera over the D60 or S2 is that it's smaller, and takes smaller, lighter lenses, why would they build an adapter to let you use big, heavy, manual-focus lenses? I think this is exactly what Olympus needs not to do -- try to compete against Canon and Nikon on their terms.

Rudolph van der Merwe,

Very interesting article. I think he sums up our hopes and concerns about this Olydak system. THanks for posting this.

jim

Just kidding of course. Good article!

Corne said:

Hmm.

Surprising design. Remarkably similar to one of those coolpixes ;-)

Regards

Click to expand...

I still say shades of the PenF. Oly couldn't put it over then and the competion was Nikon and the German lenses. Canon was not really a strong player then. The pros would not accept half frame and the people who would pay the prices were prosumers ( as we know this group now - me!!! ) and they couldn't support this idea and make it profitable. One big variable is that the industry film development labs would not handle half frame and the ones that did charged a premium price. This is not a factor in digital of course but getting others to design cameras and lenses to fit this new design will be tough and Oly doesn't have the reputation of being successful when the going is tough. Evidence UZI - EZI and many film cameras including OM and IS.

You're right Sandman - sums up the hopes and concerns for the Olydak. I bought the PenF and will no doubt buy this if it ever comes to market. It's a great concept but I doubt that Oly can pull it off - Nikon or Canon maybe but they're marketing companies with a huge pro base - Oly doesn't fit into this base.

Don

Sandman said:

Rudolph van der Merwe,

Very interesting article. I think he sums up our hopes and concerns
about this Olydak system. THanks for posting this.

jim

Click to expand...

Exactly Forrest.

Forrest said:

Forrest41926 said:

I think this new camera will be a total failure if they don't make
older OM lenses compatable with it. This new dSLR is most likely a
catch-up manuever to try and compete on the same level as the Canon
D60, the Fuji S2/Nikon, and the up coming Sigma Foveon dSLR.

Click to expand...

If the advantage of this camera over the D60 or S2 is that it's
smaller, and takes smaller, lighter lenses, why would they build an
adapter to let you use big, heavy, manual-focus lenses? I think
this is exactly what Olympus needs not to do -- try to compete
against Canon and Nikon on their terms.

Click to expand...

--
C3O3Oz, C21OOuz, B28, A200, EagleEye 5x, D34OL, HP 97Oc, Extend-a-view ......
http://www.jamesthompsonconsultingengineer.com

Mike Klemmer,

Of course, until we hear something from the "horse's mouth," all of this is speculation. But I have not even heard any rumors that include an adapter for 35mm-style lens of any kind. All of the hype I have heard talks about an interchangable lens system completely designed for the digital sensor. The advantages of this are huge and could be the one distinguishing feature that separates the OlyDak from the Nikon, Canon, and Fuji.

If the image quality is superb and the design borrows from the attention to detail Olympus used in the design of the E-10, and there is an assurance that the sensor dimansions will remain the same (but new versions pack more MP into the same space) so that the lens system will not become obsolete, it is possible that this OlyDak could compete for a customer base that currently uses the Canon or Nikon systems. But the REAL niche market is for serious amateurs who do not have ANY investment in a lens systems at present. THat's me! I have no glass right now. So, when I look to move up to a prosumer level DSLR, they can all compete for my business on a level playing field.

In fact, when I bought my E-10, I did so to keep me entertained while I allow some time to pass for OlyDak to either materialize or go the way of the flying cars of the year 2000! Had there been no rumor of OlyDak, and the only choice for a serious upgrade in a digital camera was the D-60, D100, D1X, or S2, I would have selected one of these and started collecting glass at every opportunity. But being in no rush, and the possibility of a viable alternative in the OlyDak, here I sit, waiting for the announcement. In any event, whether the OlyDak flys or sinks or just never appears, I have no regrets about waiting for my prosumer camera. The E-10 is an awesome machine and has potential far beyond my meager abilities!

jim

http://www.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1008&message=2937019

Also, I have read an article in Pop Photography about a rumour that Olympus will announce a 5MP built on the Kodak sensor...other reports gleamed from mags point to it being the next in the E series... E-30.

The cost is targeted at 1500-2000.

And don't forget Canon holds a patent on a new design of the CMOS sensor that will eliminate the focal length factor and give the sensor capabilities to actually capture color information per pixel. That will likely be hinted at this show and reveal at next spring's show.

--
RichO
San Antonio, TX
http://www.pbase.com/richo/
http://www.richo.org/LearningCenter/faq_olympus.htm
'Life is a dance, Love is the music.'

RichO said:

http://www.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1008&message=2937019

Also, I have read an article in Pop Photography about a rumour that
Olympus will announce a 5MP built on the Kodak sensor...other
reports gleamed from mags point to it being the next in the E
series... E-30.

The cost is targeted at 1500-2000.

Click to expand...

Haven't the prices of E10's and E20's plumeted recently? That is usually a sign that a new model is in the offing. I suspect the E10 will be dropped completely, and the E20 will drop to the niche the E10 is currently in.

How much would you be willing to pay for this system? The positives are that it will be smaller, lighter, have more DoF, eventually it's lenses should be cheaper, and it might open new doors, like EVF viewing. The negativevs is that it will have more DoF, it's lenses will be more expensive in the short term ( 35 mm paid off R&D a long time ago ) and the whole system won't be as versatile for a long time. And, of course, it's as much of a gamble for the consumer as it is for Olympus and Kodak -- which is also true of 35 mm digital SLRs.

The rumors seem to be that the body will cost $1,500 to $2,000. This seems too high; a new D60 or D100 is at the high end of this range, and a used D30 costs half that. Either system will force you to buy at least one lens.

Personally, I'm hoping the body goes for somewhere in the $800 to $1,000 range, and that ( plenty of ) lenses are available for the price of consumer 35 mm glass. That would give us a healthy choice between pocket-sized digital elphs, a capable OlyDak, 35 mm DSLR systems, and digital backs ... just like film people can choose APS, 35 mm, MF or LF, depending on their needs.

If it gets to that, I think digital will truly have arrived.

Mike Klemmer said:

Olympus is coming out with a new dSLR with interchangable lenses.

A quote from the article: 'Olympus expects to show the new system
at this year’s Photokina. It’s based on a 4/3-inch CCD
sensor'...'a smaller SLR camera body and smaller, lighter lenses
having vastly greater zoom ranges are promised by Olympus'

http://www.photoreporter.com/2002/08-15/features/the_way_it_is.html

Click to expand...

Hi Forrest,
Should we start counting down the days and adding up the rumours?

I read in one of the articles that the Olydak would come with one lens, an 8x zoom and be priced near $2,000.

Another big question for me is - Will Olympus be shipping IS lenses for this camera? The 28-135 IS EF for the Canon is a decent lens...hope Olympus plans to try and match at least that lens to offer with the camera.

--
RichO
San Antonio, TX
http://www.pbase.com/richo/
http://www.richo.org/LearningCenter/faq_olympus.htm
'Life is a dance, Love is the music.'

Don Olson said:

I was the proud owner of a an Olympus PenF and also an extra PenFT
body. Had a real honest to goodness WA and zoom lens and what was
called a doubler back then. See the last line of Kepplers article.

Olympus is about to repeat. They couldn't do it then with the half
frame PenFT and they won't do it this time either. Nikon, Canon,
Sony and others just to powerful - they'll bury Oly again IMHO.

Don

Click to expand...

I don't think so. The Pen range suffered from being half frame and therefore although offering the obvious advantages was considered to offer inferior quality of a smaller negative.

Likewise the processing was a problem.

How many people who have bought a D60 or D100 have stuck soley to their existing glass and not bought even one new lens?

The quality problems don't exist this time. As long as there are enough pixels people will be happy.

I also don't think the fact there is a lot of Canon and Nikon glass out there is that big a deal such that it will encourage people to go there rather than with this rumoured Oly.

This is more true with Nikon IMO because older Nikon glass gives reduced functionality when used on a modern Nikon AF body.

How often do you see posts on here asking what NEW glass should someone buy with their new D60 or D100 - even when they already have a bunch of Canon or Nikon lenses?

This time its pretty clear the market this camera will be aimed at (hopefully) is crying out for a system that does not have a 1.5 multiplier.

People who buy the likes of E10s D7I, Nik 5700 are for the most part serious amateurs and the odd profesisonal thrown in as well. Yet there prepared to put up with cameras that are a compromise.

Think about it - we are back to SCREWING lenses onto the fron't of cameras, don't have decent wide angle and mess about with converter lenses.

If Oly can price this right they may hit their own sales of E10/20 but would also IMO hit sales of 5700 style cameras.

If they can come out with a 20mm (35mm equivalent) wideangle lens with a bayonet mount system they can have my money now.

I think there is a big role in the market for such a camera. IMO people have been weaned off being fixated on HOW the results are delivered and are now more interested in getting them in the best way they can.

Dave

Forrest,

Regarding your comment about DOF, do you mean that with this system on would have more control over DOF than traditional digital cameras? My concern, and the concern of many will be the ability to control the DOF for subjects some distance from the camera, ie: football, glamour, modeling, portraiture, etc. We know what a pain it is to try to get a blurred background when the subject-camera distance is great. This is also a problem for the E-10/20. But you guys with your D-60's can control this, right? So what will the ramifications for this be with a new system with lens designed specifically for the sensor size?

Help me understand these variables.

Thanks,

jim

wrote:

Forrest41926 said:

How much would you be willing to pay for this system? The
positives are that it will be smaller, lighter, have more DoF,
eventually it's lenses should be cheaper, and it might open new
doors, like EVF viewing. The negativevs is that it will have more
DoF, it's lenses will be more expensive in the short term ( 35 mm
paid off R&D a long time ago ) and the whole system won't be as
versatile for a long time. And, of course, it's as much of a
gamble for the consumer as it is for Olympus and Kodak -- which is
also true of 35 mm digital SLRs.

The rumors seem to be that the body will cost $1,500 to $2,000.
This seems too high; a new D60 or D100 is at the high end of this
range, and a used D30 costs half that. Either system will force
you to buy at least one lens.

Personally, I'm hoping the body goes for somewhere in the $800 to
$1,000 range, and that ( plenty of ) lenses are available for the
price of consumer 35 mm glass. That would give us a healthy choice
between pocket-sized digital elphs, a capable OlyDak, 35 mm DSLR
systems, and digital backs ... just like film people can choose
APS, 35 mm, MF or LF, depending on their needs.

If it gets to that, I think digital will truly have arrived.

Mike Klemmer said:

Olympus is coming out with a new dSLR with interchangable lenses.

A quote from the article: 'Olympus expects to show the new system
at this year’s Photokina. It’s based on a 4/3-inch CCD
sensor'...'a smaller SLR camera body and smaller, lighter lenses
having vastly greater zoom ranges are promised by Olympus'

http://www.photoreporter.com/2002/08-15/features/the_way_it_is.html

Click to expand...

Click to expand...

--
galleries at: http://www.pbase.com/sandman3
critiques at PhotoSig: http://www.photosig.com/userphotos.php?id=15764

Sandman said:

Regarding your comment about DOF, do you mean that with this system
on would have more control over DOF than traditional digital
cameras?

Click to expand...

A "portrait" telephoto on the new camera would be about a 45 or 50mm lens. This will have significantly less DOF than the medium telephoto zoom setting ( 20-22mm) on an E-10/E20 (or 10-11mm on a cx0x0 camera). It will have noticably more DOF than a 100mm lens on a 35mm film camera (assuming the same aperature of course.)

Sandman said:

So what will
the ramifications for this be with a new system with lens designed
specifically for the sensor size?

Help me understand these variables.

Click to expand...

If they offer a 50mm F2.0 or better lens, then you should be able to do OK at medium distances. It will certainly be alot better here than the Exx series. (Of course, if you LIKE large DOF for macros and landscape work, it will be somewhat worse than E series but better than 35mm.)

--
Erik

Sandman said:

Regarding your comment about DOF, do you mean that with this system
on would have more control over DOF than traditional digital
cameras? My concern, and the concern of many will be the ability
to control the DOF for subjects some distance from the camera, ie:
football, glamour, modeling, portraiture, etc. We know what a pain
it is to try to get a blurred background when the subject-camera
distance is great. This is also a problem for the E-10/20. But
you guys with your D-60's can control this, right? So what will
the ramifications for this be with a new system with lens designed
specifically for the sensor size?

Click to expand...

Sandman said:

Help me understand these variables.

Click to expand...

I'm going to steal a joke: You know what circles of confusion are, right? A bunch of photographers sitting around, trying to figure out depth of field.

A general rule of physics is that the bigger the lens, the shallower the DOF it will produce. The new OlyDak won't be able to produce the kind of narrow DOF that comes easily from a D60 or a 1D, just like these cameras can't do what film can ( if you needed an 80 mm lens on film, you need a 50 mm lens on a D60, so you do wind up with more DOF ). Just like 35 mm has more depth than medium format, which has more than large format.

Bigger lenses also make it easier to control depth. My 50/1.4 can do everything from the eyes in focus and the nose OOF, to the whole damn thing being sharp. Besides having the two extremes, there are a million steps between them, so you can put the DOF exactly where you want it. For portraits, the DOF Preview button should help plenty, too.

And if you want ultimate control over DOF, you need either a MF/LF view camera, or a Canon DSLR and a tilt-shift lens. You can actually move the plane of focus, so maybe you're subject's head is in focus, and the shoulders aren't! ( Sorry ... but I just don't see these lenses being available for the OlyDak. )

Of course, it's all a trade-off. My 16/2.8 zoom is plenty able to throw the background out of focus. I tend to shoot my landscapes at f/11 for sharpness and for DOF, so a tripod is mandatory. You can actually shoot landscapes hand-held with small-format digitals.

What Lens did you shoot that wood with (posted here a while ago), and apart from the 50mm 1.4 what else do you have? and have you tried fitting an Oly teleconverter to any of your lenses? - believe me, the B300 turns the 50mm (=80mm) prime into a 136mm tele and it WORKS beautifully

I still can't believe that a 20-35mm F3.5-4.5 Tokina I picked up for £125 to the door has the right to be as good as it is!. I took that 35-135USM back it was "Pants" ;-)

--
Olympus C2100UZI +B300, E10, Canon D60.

My Ugly mug and submitted Photos at -------->
http://www.photosig.com/viewuser.php?id=27855

Adam-T said:

What Lens did you shoot that wood with (posted here a while ago),
and apart from the 50mm 1.4 what else do you have? and have you
tried fitting an Oly teleconverter to any of your lenses? - believe
me, the B300 turns the 50mm (=80mm) prime into a 136mm tele and it
WORKS beautifully

I still can't believe that a 20-35mm F3.5-4.5 Tokina I picked up
for £125 to the door has the right to be as good as it is!. I took
that 35-135USM back it was "Pants" ;-)

--
Olympus C2100UZI +B300, E10, Canon D60.

My Ugly mug and submitted Photos at -------->
http://www.photosig.com/viewuser.php?id=27855

Click to expand...

--
Olympus C2100UZI +B300, E10, Canon D60.

My Ugly mug and submitted Photos at -------->
http://www.photosig.com/viewuser.php?id=27855

Check out the article in Steve's site (link is a few posts above in Rudolph's post)

Forrest41926 said:

And if you want ultimate control over DOF, you need either a
MF/LF view camera, or a Canon DSLR and a tilt-shift lens. You can
actually move the plane of focus, so maybe you're subject's head is
in focus, and the shoulders aren't! ( Sorry ... but I just don't
see these lenses being available for the OlyDak. )

Click to expand...

The part about movable sensors is very interesting - you could get the effect with all your lenses. It's just anothere case of how thinking outside of the traditional film paradigm (sorry... couldn't come up with another word) might really provide some huge advantages for new digital camera designs.

I'm really starting to hope Oly doesn't let us down with this one. I'm starting to count the days to the show...

Dave

It depends on the sensor.
No more G-R G-B for me!

It has to be like the Foveon or the one in the Fujifilm S2
6 megapixel minimum for me to part with $2000

DVT43 said:

It's just anothere case of how
thinking outside of the traditional film paradigm

Click to expand...

This WAS part of the traditional "film paradigm" before roll film became dominant. (Most view cameras support back movement.) Wheel of incarnation, anyone?

Member said:

might really provide some huge
advantages for new digital camera designs.

Click to expand...

Well, one can always dream, but I would not hold my breath. You are talking about adding some fiddly and expensive precision movements for a little used (and easy to mess up) feature. The beauty of T/S lenses is two fold: only those who need the feature pay for it and all you have to do to return everything to "normal" is just switch back to a normal lens.

--
Erik

Adam-T said:

What Lens did you shoot that wood with (posted here a while ago),
and apart from the 50mm 1.4 what else do you have? and have you
tried fitting an Oly teleconverter to any of your lenses? - believe
me, the B300 turns the 50mm (=80mm) prime into a 136mm tele and it
WORKS beautifully

Click to expand...

I have a 50/1.4 and a 16-35L f/2.8. The 50 is quite a bit sharper, a breeze to focus ( either way ) in situations my L zoom couldn't handle ( well, it has more DOF, so focus isn't quite as important, but for ultimate sharpness it is! ), weighs plenty less, and actually fits in my bag when it's attached to the camera. ( The 16-35L fits in the bag w/o the hood, but... )

That said, the 16 is my favorite, and the one that's on the camera at least 80% of the time.

I don't have any teleconverters. Somehow, I managed to be satisfied with the Uzi's range. Toward the end I started wanting something wider, but that seemed like too much work ... and the Uzi was so much better for ducks than it was for landscapes anyway.

Adam-T said:

I still can't believe that a 20-35mm F3.5-4.5 Tokina I picked up
for £125 to the door has the right to be as good as it is!. I took
that 35-135USM back it was "Pants" ;-)

Click to expand...

So you like it? I was considering a 20-35, but ultimately that damned 1.6x scared me away from it. And I really do make use of the f/2.8 aperture, anyway. I almost always shoot at f/11 ... but the camera always AFs with the lens wide open ... and I like night scenics, too.

Anyway, 32 mm is plenty wider than the Uzi would allow, and with plenty more detail behind the lens. How are those English -scapes treating you?