Can I pick your brains please? Exposure and tips

Ryan21

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Okay everyone,

I just wanted to get a feel for how people here are using their Oly exposure options be it ESP, Center or Spot. Also I am looking for any tips to streamline photo-making.

Any tips or ideas with regards to programming the Fn button to assist in obtaining a good exposure? What about AE Lock? Anyone using it and if so, how?

What is your steps in obtaining a perfect exposure? How many of you are using the histogram by chimping?

Also how many of you are using spot meter + manual + positive EC for portraits?

How many of you are letting your highlights and shadows fall where they fall as long as your subject (portrait) is exposed correctly?

Last but not least. How many of you are tweaking your exposure in post? If so, by how much?

I know this is a lot to ask but each question is something I ask myself and sometimes I feel like I get stuck in a rut, particularly I think I am approaching my exposures in a inefficient way.

Thank you soooo much!

Ryan
--
Love of beauty is taste. The creation of beauty is art.- Ralph Waldo Emerson
 
What camera do you use?
Okay everyone,

I just wanted to get a feel for how people here are using their Oly exposure options be it ESP, Center or Spot. Also I am looking for any tips to streamline photo-making.
You can use any option and achieve identical results, as long as you know what the camera is doing, and you know how to react to what the camera is doing. I use ESP 99% of the time because I know very well how the E-3 will react to most lighting conditions. I can dial in exposure compensation with reliability, and find the exact exposure I want usually within two shutter releases.
Any tips or ideas with regards to programming the Fn button to assist in obtaining a good exposure? What about AE Lock? Anyone using it and if so, how?
The E-3 has an AEL button - I use that for AEL, and I use the Fn button for MF.
What is your steps in obtaining a perfect exposure? How many of you are using the histogram by chimping?
I'm not sure what you mean by "chimping." Using the histogram is an integral part of digital photography - there's no substitute.

Get used to an exposure mode on your camera. Understand how it works, understand when it tends to overexpose and when it tends to underexpose. Review the histogram after every shot (if necessary), and adjust exposure based on the histogram (if you shoot to post process).

The histogram may not work for you - if you don't post process, it can hinder your pictures as the subject will not always be exposed properly.
Also how many of you are using spot meter + manual + positive EC for portraits?
No. Why make it that hard?
How many of you are letting your highlights and shadows fall where they fall as long as your subject (portrait) is exposed correctly?
Never. I know what the E-3 is capable of, and I know where my pictures will end up. If the end result is digital or small prints, I can safely lift the E-3 1.5-2.0 stops at ISO100. That is a lot. If the end result is larger prints, I limit lifting to less than 1 stop. If I'm shooting above ISO100, I modify those rules as necessary; for example, I limit lifting to about 0.5EV at ISO400 for large prints, while for smaller prints and the web I can lift 2/3EV at ISO800.

With this in mind, I can safely expose for the highlights, meaning keep them from clipping (using the histogram). In many cases clipping is good as it gives the real feel for the image, and gives the image direct impact on the viewer.

I cant stand blown skies, so I almost always expose for skies and fix the subject later. Or, if it's a portrait, position the subject to minimize blown skies.
Last but not least. How many of you are tweaking your exposure in post? If so, by how much?
I tweak exposure in approximately 100% of my pictures. How much depends on the shooting situation, and how well I managed the exposure in the first place. If you're not PPing your images, you're not with the norm here on DPReview.
I know this is a lot to ask but each question is something I ask myself and sometimes I feel like I get stuck in a rut, particularly I think I am approaching my exposures in a inefficient way.
--
Tim
'I haven't been everywhere, but it's on my list.'
E3/7-14/12-60/150/50-200/25/25/EC-14
http://www.flickr.com/photos/timskis6/
 
It sounds to me that you are approaching your exposures much the way I been. I shoot both the E-3 and E-620. I feel like I am always tweaking my exposures in post so I feel like I am not photographing correctly. My goal is to capture the best possible image in camera so I have as much quality to work with afterwards. I am making constant adjustments to my images. Of course I use ec in camera but I feel like I am chasing a bullet and can't nail my exposures on cam. Am I expecting to much or is this the reality od digital imaging?
--
Love of beauty is taste. The creation of beauty is art.- Ralph Waldo Emerson
 
It sounds to me that you are approaching your exposures much the way I been. I shoot both the E-3 and E-620. I feel like I am always tweaking my exposures in post so I feel like I am not photographing correctly. My goal is to capture the best possible image in camera so I have as much quality to work with afterwards. I am making constant adjustments to my images. Of course I use ec in camera but I feel like I am chasing a bullet and can't nail my exposures on cam. Am I expecting to much or is this the reality od digital imaging?
You may be expecting too much with respect to how straightforward digital imaging is. Post a picture, and ask a question about it.

Nailing the "perfect" exposure is absolutely, 100% subjective. A large part of the time people agree on what the correct exposure will be. However, small (or large) changes in exposure in post express different views and relay different messages to the viewer. In these cases exposure can never be concrete.

I use this example a lot in this type of discussion. Would you consider the first image a "perfect" exposure? Many would say no, but I would say yes, because of what I can achieve with the end result (barring image quality aside). Had I exposed for the foreground, the sky would be blown, with little or no sun at all.



Final image:



--
Tim
'I haven't been everywhere, but it's on my list.'
E3/7-14/12-60/150/50-200/25/25/EC-14
http://www.flickr.com/photos/timskis6/
 
here are two examples.

This first exposure is utter garbage. The second photo is after I tweaked it in post. The skin in the second image is right where I like it. Now I just want to take the second image in camera!

Clearly the E-3 was underexposing the man's face here and I had to do some considerable lifting to restore it.

How does one "nail" the exposure like the second image when you don't have a chance for two shots. In this case are we talking about AE bracketing?

Every situation is so dynamic and constantly changing. I can't set it and forget it.

Also something interesting to point out, the camera is trying to make fair skin 18% grey which I don't ever really want. And dark skinned people need a bit of negative EC applied in camera. I see images of people over at fredmiranda and also here at DPreview where the skin tones are spot on and exposure is amazing in each photo. Are they just pp'ing them to correct initial issues from the RAW file or are they that good OOC?





--
Love of beauty is taste. The creation of beauty is art.- Ralph Waldo Emerson
 
Not sure exactly which direction you are going with this, but just a few comments
Okay everyone,

I just wanted to get a feel for how people here are using their Oly exposure options be it ESP, Center or Spot. Also I am looking for any tips to streamline photo-making.
They each have their place, depending on the subject/background/foreground and lighting conditions. You want a great photo of a white bird, unless you are an expert photo-shopper, you better use spot or center-weighted. Sometimes I try both and compare later on the computer
Any tips or ideas with regards to programming the Fn button to assist in obtaining a good exposure? What about AE Lock? Anyone using it and if so, how?
Can't help you there
What is your steps in obtaining a perfect exposure? How many of you are using the histogram by chimping?
Perfect exposures are elusive by definition. I just ask if the image has appeal, and does it represent what I want others to see in it. Histograms are interesting, but I never consult it in terms of actually taking the shot.
Also how many of you are using spot meter + manual + positive EC for portraits?
I Never use MF, sorry
How many of you are letting your highlights and shadows fall where they fall as long as your subject (portrait) is exposed correctly?
Yup, that's me
Last but not least. How many of you are tweaking your exposure in post? If so, by how much?
Just a tad, usually in contrast and a touch of the brightness slider. It's a time thing with me. I only have so much time to find and capture the image, and to process it. I would rather skew that time more toward finger on the shutter than on the keyboard and mouse.
I know this is a lot to ask but each question is something I ask myself and sometimes I feel like I get stuck in a rut, particularly I think I am approaching my exposures in a inefficient way.
The variety of choices with a DSLR is what makes you feel inefficient. Vivid or Natural, Spot or Matrix, Single point or multi. I recommend that you use what you are most comfortable with and when you AND the subject have time, be brave, try a different setting in addition to what you are used to, then compare the results later when you have enough computer time.
Thank you soooo much!

Ryan
--
Love of beauty is taste. The creation of beauty is art.- Ralph Waldo Emerson
--
Always looking for good images to display as a POTD!
potdgroup.com
 
There is probably a happy medium between those two images, but I think the ideal is closer to the original than the 'corrected' one.

Timski, I love the way you were able to fix the landscape image that you used as an example, nice skills. My only issue with it (as one who is not the norm) is that your eyeball/brain could not see that(2nd) image if you were standing there, and your camera could not see it either. But it is a nice creation.
--
Always looking for good images to display as a POTD!
potdgroup.com
 
here are two examples.

This first exposure is utter garbage. The second photo is after I tweaked it in post. The skin in the second image is right where I like it. Now I just want to take the second image in camera!

Clearly the E-3 was underexposing the man's face here and I had to do some considerable lifting to restore it.
In this image I'm guessing you were using ESP metering - the E-3 averages points from all around the frame and meters to an average of those averages. You can see that the upper right 1/4 of the image is extremely bright - the E-3 takes this into account, and will likely underexpose this image. I would expect the E-3 to underexpose in this situation, assuming you metered either on the face or metered exactly as composed.
How does one "nail" the exposure like the second image when you don't have a chance for two shots. In this case are we talking about AE bracketing?
I can think of a few different ways to achieve this, however I'd simply use ESP (since I'm so familiar with it) and apply positive exposure compensation. This is really a matter of preference and experience, though I have to admit I probably wouldn't "nail" the exposure the first time around on this image using this method, despite how confident I am with ESP metering. This is partly because I rarely take these types of images, and partly because I try and refrain from it. Wedding photography is different, and requires you to do this, so perhaps one of these other methods will work.

One method is to use ESP+AF metering mode. This is the same as ESP, but puts emphasis (averaging) on the focus point used, rather than giving all focus areas equal priority. I have little experience using this so I can't confidently comment on it, however if you're very familiar with ESP, this may be the first thing to check out.

Secondly, and perhaps the most straightforward answer, is to use spot metering. As you can imagine, spot metering averages a very small spot and sets exposure based on that. In theory this works well for uniformly lit subjects, however it would not work well in the scenario you linked to, unless you understand how spot metering works. For example, if (in a hurry), you spot metered on the man's right side of his face (left side of the picture), you would get a very different exposure than if you spot metered on his left eye (right side of the picture). You'd probably get exposure differences of at least 1.5EV, which is huge. If you happen to accidentally spot meter on a hot spot on his/her face, it gets even worse.

The "fix" for spot metering is center-weighted metering, which puts priority on the focus point, but also takes into consideration the immediate area around the focus point, as well as (to a much lesser extent) the remaining portion of the frame. However, I'm not sure if center-weighted metering works for any focus point other than the center one, which of course would make it almost useless. You'd have to check the other focus points.
Every situation is so dynamic and constantly changing. I can't set it and forget it.
This is why I'd suggest choosing a metering method that works for you 75% of the time, and then figure out how to work around with "fixes" for the remaining 25% of the time. In my case it's easy, since I'm confident with ESP metering in about 90% of the scenarios, and have the option to adjust for the remaining 10%.
Also something interesting to point out, the camera is trying to make fair skin 18% grey which I don't ever really want. And dark skinned people need a bit of negative EC applied in camera. I see images of people over at fredmiranda and also here at DPreview where the skin tones are spot on and exposure is amazing in each photo. Are they just pp'ing them to correct initial issues from the RAW file or are they that good OOC?
Note that the camera isn't trying to make the skin 18% grey, but it's trying to make the portion of the image that is metered to be 18% grey. If the face isn't metered, it may not be 18% grey. If you meter a solid black box (with a person standing on it), the camera will attempt to make the solid black box 18% grey, and in the mean time the person will be greatly overexposed.

Remember, no one ever posts images that are sub-par. Why would you? We post images that are near-perfect, or appear to be. So third parties look at those images and often mistakenly believe "all" their images would be that way. In fact, I'm guessing a lot of people rattle off hundreds of images before they post one onto DPR or FM.

--
Tim
'I haven't been everywhere, but it's on my list.'
E3/7-14/12-60/150/50-200/25/25/EC-14
http://www.flickr.com/photos/timskis6/
 
Gidday Ryan
It sounds to me that you are approaching your exposures much the way I been. I shoot both the E-3 and E-620.
Metering is tricky. I always have my cameras (E-1 & E-510) set to centre spot by default. I only budge off this when I cannot get the result that I want. I almost always shoot in aperture priority mode.

I find that with the E-1 sometimes matrix will work better, but not usually. I rarely use centre weighted with it (and yet this is what my OM-1s used, so I am very used to this methodology).

With the E-510, I sometimes use centre-weighted, but very rarely matrix ...

I am a great exponent of the focus/meter and re-compose school of thought.

IMHO, this is far faster and more accurate than trying to adjust the exposure from the "auto" settings; but then I also have 50+ years of experience to guide me in this, and this should not be under-rated ... I try to teach this method to all I come into contact with (when appropriate ... ).

When all else fails, I look at what the camera has tried to do and failed, check the exposure settings the camera used, then shoot manual until I get one in the centre pocket ...
I feel like I am always tweaking my exposures in post so I feel like I am not photographing correctly.
Honest self-criticism is a very hard thing to learn, Ryan; and your greatest asset ... You are obviously already doing that well.

I always shoot RAW + JPEG and only rarely do anything to JPEGs.

If an image needs editing, I edit the RAW. I rarely adjust the exposure more than about ±0.25 stop, usually after tweaking the WB. Guess why Adobe put the WB control at the top? Accident? I think not ... Mostly I find that the WB does not need adjusting more than ±200°K; sometimes it does.

I have ACR set to ProPhotoRGB 16 bit.

Mostly I just hit OPEN in ACR, apply a USM of about 1.8~2.2 pixels, 28~35%, thresholds = 0; PRINT and save as either PSD-16 or TIFF-16.
My goal is to capture the best possible image in camera so I have as much quality to work with afterwards.
So you should, too. Sometimes it does not work like that. Then try to get it as right as possible in ACR. Generally, if the image is worth a bumper, there should be precious little left to do in PS (other than the mandatory USM). IF the image is really bad, but important, then you have to go to work ...
I am making constant adjustments to my images. Of course I use ec in camera but I feel like I am chasing a bullet and can't nail my exposures on cam.
Technique and experience are both incredibly important - they go hand in hand, IMNSHO. See above. The camera is easy to fool; and I find that mine can also fool me rather easily at times ...
Am I expecting to much or is this the reality od digital imaging?
No, mate. Experience and practice will help greatly.

--
Regards, john from Melbourne, Australia.
-- -- --

The Camera doth not make the Man (or Woman) ...
Perhaps being kind to cats, dogs & children does ...

Gallery: http://canopuscomputing.com.au/gallery2/main.php
Hints & Tips (temporary link, as under construction):
http://canopuscomputing.com.au/index.php?p=1_9



Bird Control Officers on active service.

Member of UK (and abroad) Photo Safari Group
 
Gidday again Ryan

Check out this wonderful description by John Paul here:
http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1022&message=33218712

I have just bookmarked it; added it to my favourites; and copied it as a text file to my HDD.

Pretty much as good as it gets, IMHO.

--
Regards, john from Melbourne, Australia.
-- -- --

The Camera doth not make the Man (or Woman) ...
Perhaps being kind to cats, dogs & children does ...

Gallery: http://canopuscomputing.com.au/gallery2/main.php
Hints & Tips (temporary link, as under construction):
http://canopuscomputing.com.au/index.php?p=1_9



Bird Control Officers on active service.

Member of UK (and abroad) Photo Safari Group
 
here are two examples.

This first exposure is utter garbage. The second photo is after I tweaked it in post. The skin in the second image is right where I like it. Now I just want to take the second image in camera!

Clearly the E-3 was underexposing the man's face here and I had to do some considerable lifting to restore it.

How does one "nail" the exposure like the second image when you don't have a chance for two shots.
1. spot meter on an area of skin that meets your personal 'neutral' definition and

2. dial in your pre-established amount of EV that delivers your exposure requirements ie adjust the EV to give you 30% or 40%, whatever you want, time after time (you will have to have a scale for different skin types or get creative with you selection of the skin area metered in 1 above!

This is the practical application of JohnK's point - with which I totally agree.

However this is of course only a starting point in any serious portrait approach because one you have a specific area of skin you then need to control all the others, and background etc - which is where lighting arrangements come in.
In this case are we talking about AE bracketing?

Every situation is so dynamic and constantly changing. I can't set it and forget it.

Also something interesting to point out, the camera is trying to make fair skin 18% grey which I don't ever really want. And dark skinned people need a bit of negative EC applied in camera. I see images of people over at fredmiranda and also here at DPreview where the skin tones are spot on and exposure is amazing in each photo. Are they just pp'ing them to correct initial issues from the RAW file or are they that good OOC?
--
  • enjoy your camera equipment -
 
I shoot with ESP 99% of the time

If not in a hurry, I always have a look at the histogram, at least at the first of a series of exposures of the "same subject/same lighting".

If very "thin" readout, I tend to put the reading to the right on the histogram scale, sort of to get the main light away from shadow noise.Then easily adjustable in PP.

I mostly ensure there are no clipped highlights

If highlights are small (like small rims on fex metal edges) or unimportant for the image as a whole, and if there is very strong contrast related to the main subject, I may let some highlights remain clipped

I have set my E-620 to +1/6 in the exposure shift menu, for all exposure methods (ESP, Center & Spot) since I found it to expose a bit weak as delivered.

I also shoot in "A" mode 99% of the time

I shoot 100% Super Fine Jpeg, (yet)
Okay everyone,

I just wanted to get a feel for how people here are using their Oly exposure options be it ESP, Center or Spot. Also I am looking for any tips to streamline photo-making.

Any tips or ideas with regards to programming the Fn button to assist in obtaining a good exposure? What about AE Lock? Anyone using it and if so, how?

What is your steps in obtaining a perfect exposure? How many of you are using the histogram by chimping?

Also how many of you are using spot meter + manual + positive EC for portraits?

How many of you are letting your highlights and shadows fall where they fall as long as your subject (portrait) is exposed correctly?

Last but not least. How many of you are tweaking your exposure in post? If so, by how much?

I know this is a lot to ask but each question is something I ask myself and sometimes I feel like I get stuck in a rut, particularly I think I am approaching my exposures in a inefficient way.

Thank you soooo much!

Ryan
--
Love of beauty is taste. The creation of beauty is art.- Ralph Waldo Emerson
--
Aim & Frame ;-)
Shooting with Olympus E-620 with battery grip.Lenses are the 14-42mm & 40-150mm.
 
taking an average of the pixels in (his) left cheek gives a sample of 180 as your preferred skin so you would be looking to dial in about 1EV over the default 18/20% grey when spot metering to achive this look in a repeatable manner.

one other 'solution' available to you is to use LV and adjust the exposure until the look you want is displayed on the screen (for any degree of safety you should ensure that you and your LCD screen are 'as one' ie it's calibrated to your eye!

--
  • enjoy your camera equipment -
 
Any tips or ideas with regards to programming the Fn button to assist in obtaining a good exposure? What about AE Lock? Anyone using it and if so, how?
I use the Fn button for other reasons, so can't help there. AE lock I use, mostly for scenes where my subject is off centre. I'll AE lock the final scene composition, move the camera, AF lock subject, return to final scene composition and take the photo. That's if I'm exposing for the whole scene of course and haven't swapped AEL to AFL. (With AFL I can just lock the focus then recompose and exposure will meter at full shutter press).
What is your steps in obtaining a perfect exposure? How many of you are using the histogram by chimping?
I don't tend to use the histogram - the E620 seems to behave well enough not to. Other steps are quite simple - just meter for the correct part of the scene I'm interested in. If it's whole scene then ESP. If it's mostly whole scene then ESP+AF weight. If it's a subject in isolation then centre-weighted, while spot I use for tricky lighting conditions. If I want a white background then Spot-Hi, if I want black shadows then spot-lo.
Also how many of you are using spot meter + manual + positive EC for portraits?
Not me.
How many of you are letting your highlights and shadows fall where they fall as long as your subject (portrait) is exposed correctly?
If I want that I'll use less than full scene metering.
Last but not least. How many of you are tweaking your exposure in post? If so, by how much?
Depends on the shot. Each one is different. Often I'll use it to increase contrast where I know I'm happy with clipping either end. Sometimes I'm brightening the mid levels while keeping highs and lows the same. Never by much though.
 
here are two examples.

This first exposure is utter garbage.
It may be due to monitor calibration, but I disagree. From an exposure point of view, I prefer the first (admittedly, the curves need tweaking, but they always do).

I have always had the opinion, that - for instance - a night shot should be dark, not 18% grey. Correspondingly, my visual expectation is that a backlit portrait be darker than 18% grey. A fog scene should normally be brighter than 18% grey.

Maybe that's also the reason why I dislike HDR when it's overdone: the pictures start looking like an 18% grey card with a bit of texture left in them.

Anyway, as others have said, there is no right or wrong, it is up to personal taste.

Martin

--
signature valid without signature
 
I appreciate the insight and direction. I have switched both camera to spot and am shooting full manual and so far it seems quite a bit easier to get the skin tonality that I want within two shots. I have always advocated focus/meter and recompose and have shot that way my whole life.

The best thing I think I can do for my skill and technique is to realize that I still suck at things and MUST get better!

Thanks again for your comments.

Ryan
--
Love of beauty is taste. The creation of beauty is art.- Ralph Waldo Emerson
 
Okay everyone,

I just wanted to get a feel for how people here are using their Oly exposure options be it ESP, Center or Spot. Also I am looking for any tips to streamline photo-making.
Nearly always use ESP.
Any tips or ideas with regards to programming the Fn button to assist in obtaining a good exposure? What about AE Lock? Anyone using it and if so, how?
Mine is set to DOF preview, but since I don't use live view that much, it's rare that it gets used.
What is your steps in obtaining a perfect exposure? How many of you are using the histogram by chimping?
I let the camera meter do it's thing. If I need more/less light, I compensate. Never look at the histogram.
Also how many of you are using spot meter + manual + positive EC for portraits?
Not me.
How many of you are letting your highlights and shadows fall where they fall as long as your subject (portrait) is exposed correctly?
Not sure what you mean here, but I pose models so that shadows/highlights fall where I want em. If they're too harsh, they get moderated by flash/diffusers.
Last but not least. How many of you are tweaking your exposure in post? If so, by how much?
Not much, little here, little there.

--



http://www.pbase.com/jfinite
 
Try an expodisc for spot on and good color on skin,quick and easy!!
--

E- 3 guy & 510, 570uz, 50/200swz,12/60swz, 35-100, 1.4, 25, 40/150, 9-18 , 14-42 , fl-36&50R Vivatar 383, HLD-4, Tcon-17, raynex 150, Its hard to teach an old dog new clicks.
 
Shoot; look at the LCD; adjust
Shoot; look at the LCD; adjust
Shoot; look at the LCD: SMILE

Why is it so Complicated ?

Every picture is different
Every picture needs PP

It's work; but it's not difficult !

Love Vjim
 

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