7D compared to D300s

rwbaron · Sep 2, 2009

I agree and spent quite some time last night comparing the 7D JPEG's on the IR site to the 5DmkII and D300/90 from base ISO through the 6400.

My assessment is there's not much difference between the 7D and 5DmkII until ISO 800 where the 5DmkII begins to gain up to a 1 stop advantage on noise at 6400. IMO 6400 on the 5DmkII is very close to 3200 on the 7D. Detail is almost a wash at the lower ISO's but the 7D loses more to NR as the ISO climbs.

The 7D has noticeably more detail than the D300/90 at any ISO with about identical noise. The 7D also has much better sharpness but these are JPEG's. All the D300 images look slightly OOF by comparison but that holds over the entire image so it's not a focus issue. The D300 nor the D90 really handle whites in the scene well at all if you compare the white yarn. Both the D300/90 lose detail in the yarn even at the low ISO's. Again these are JPEG's so tone curves are certainly at play here but the Canon's JPEG's do much better with highlight detail.

I'm very anxious to see some neutral RAW comparisons but the initial images on IR show promise.

Bob

rdspear said:
Specs don't really mean much to me. I'd rather see the results. (Actually, I'd rather use each in my typical usage conditions and see what yields the best results). Here is just the first of what I'm sure will be many comparisons. From I-R

300D on left, 7D on right. Looks pretty good, for 1 data point.

--
http://www.pbase.com/rwbaron

Azimuth46 · Sep 2, 2009

jeminijoseph said:
There are couple of things I like about D300s. Dual card slot and ISO auto. I know many doesn't care much about customizable ISO auto. I use it 100% of time. [cut]

I use auto ISO all the times too. And I think it's very useful, I love Nikon for that! I dont get why Canon put it only in the 1Dx series :-(

jeminijoseph said:
Dual card can be life saver. I have to agree that I never had a card crash since 2005.

Unfortunately I had a card crash, just with a Nikon D300 and a 32GB card! :-( A Pretec one, since then I've always bought Sandisk ... anyway the dual card is usefull especially if you shoot some videos ...

jeminijoseph said:
The biggest question is AF. I'm sure 51 point have some advantage especially for BIF. Even when I choose to use only center 21 points, It's better to have all points together. If I can keep the bird somewhere in the center camera will track it. If you have gaps between and it's possible to miss the shot. I have huge improvement in BIF shots with D300. But D300 51 pint was slow.

I guess the Canon AF will be surely good but the point is another one at least for me: the AF ergonomics.

In Nikon D300 if you have half press the shutter button (or the AF-ON btn), you can VERY_EASILY select the AF point you want with the multipad button WITHOUT needing to press anything else ... and this method of work is fast and intuitive, at least for me!

In the Canon 5D (I dunno about the 1Dx series, but the 5D2 is the same), after half pressing the shutter button you have to press the blue button on the right of the AF-ON btn (on the back of the camera!) and then use the little tiny joystick or rotate the mail dial TILL finding the right AF point you want to ...
this at least for me is much SLOWER process of selecting the right AF point! :-(

And I really donìt know if there is a faster method in Canon! I'd like not to have to rotate "whatever dial" but select what I wanna straight!

jeminijoseph said:
Some people tested D300s claims it's much faster now. This guy claims he's using 1DII says it's at pro level ( http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1039&message=32665912 )

I can confirm, for what it can be valued as I only tested a D300s in a shop ... and it's AF acquisition time is reduced, the AF is much faster!

jeminijoseph said:
Overall 7D is better now especially with 18 MP with same or better noise performance and 8FPS without grip. Not sure about weather sealing AF tracking. I'm curiously waiting for AF tests. If this beats D300s I will jump the ship and get 7D and 500/IS.

for me it's not the 18MP to be really interesting but the fact that it has 1 stop more in high ISO... that's quite important in terms of usabilility in real world condition.

Anyway I double checked on the Nikon US website ... and in the specifications there is now different in shooting speed between 12bit NEF and 14bit NEF. It's 7fps no matter what NEF you're using .. so the speed is the same.

regards

Jaims · Sep 2, 2009

Sorry Colin, I didn't see your question before...

In fact, I made a mistake; the OP was about the D300s, not the D300.

Seems that it doesn't matter, cause the D300s is a D300 a bit remaked after all...

What seems somehow weird in the comparison against the D300 is that Canon comes almost 2 years late to compete with this Nikon niche; I'd expect to come 2 years later with a cam that is way ahead of it.

I mean, there is a fierce competition among both camera makers, and making a new model that is to be compared with the one that the competence made 2 years before... Could sound like a bit disappointing.

But then again, maybe the D300 is in a point that cannot be surpassed until the next new technology jump, and all we can expect in an APSC is at this level.

Actually, dunno. I'm not a physician or something, and have been into photography (as aficionado) for less than 1 year.

Just the comparison sounded weird, that's all.

That being said, I'm reading some of the new threads on the 7D and I think that it is probably a good cam on its own, no comparisons needed.

Regards

clknight said:
Jaims said:

Mmmmh, there is something I don't like in the idea of comparing the last top Canon's cam with Nikon's 2 years old by now.

Click to expand...

Why not compare the 7D to the D300? As far as I'm concerned, 2 cameras within $100 of each other should be compared. And my conclusion would be that the D300 is overpriced. It's a great camera, but over priced.

--
http://www.pbase.com/clknight
Colin

PerL · Sep 2, 2009

rwbaron said:
I agree and spent quite some time last night comparing the 7D JPEG's on the IR site to the 5DmkII and D300/90 from base ISO through the 6400.

My assessment is there's not much difference between the 7D and 5DmkII until ISO 800 where the 5DmkII begins to gain up to a 1 stop advantage on noise at 6400. IMO 6400 on the 5DmkII is very close to 3200 on the 7D. Detail is almost a wash at the lower ISO's but the 7D loses more to NR as the ISO climbs.

The 7D has noticeably more detail than the D300/90 at any ISO with about identical noise. The 7D also has much better sharpness but these are JPEG's. All the D300 images look slightly OOF by comparison but that holds over the entire image so it's not a focus issue. The D300 nor the D90 really handle whites in the scene well at all if you compare the white yarn. Both the D300/90 lose detail in the yarn even at the low ISO's. Again these are JPEG's so tone curves are certainly at play here but the Canon's JPEG's do much better with highlight detail.

I'm very anxious to see some neutral RAW comparisons but the initial images on IR show promise.

Bob

rdspear said:

Specs don't really mean much to me. I'd rather see the results. (Actually, I'd rather use each in my typical usage conditions and see what yields the best results). Here is just the first of what I'm sure will be many comparisons. From I-R

Click to expand...

If you scroll the images to the left in the comparometer, look at the colored napkins, especially the one with the red leaves. The pattern is hard to recognize on the 7D.

And if you look at the D300 samples with NR low instead (the default is to strong), or even better, the D90, which probably is closer to D300s, with NR low, the difference is even bigger.

Would the 7D look better with NR off - possibly, but that is the problem with IRs comparisions of jpegs, the NR values differs between cameras.
--
http://dslr-video.com/blogmag/

AndrewPL · Sep 2, 2009

NickMJr said:
Hmmm, let me see all dpreview and Rob Galbraith have to say about "Spot AF" is that is uses a smaller portion of the AF point. How do you know that what Canon calls a smaller spots is actually smaller than Nikons AF points??

and how do you know it's just marketing speak without any fact? Silly boy Nicky

NickMJr said:
Especially when you consider that for Nikon to fit 51 AF points within the same approximate area of Canon's 19 spots then ovious each one of those Nikon AF points are alot smaller to begin with. The D300 can use anyone of those small 51 > AF points.

I would take a 19 cross-type AF points with better AF precision than a cramped 51 AF points any day Nicky, have you actually used a D300/D300s?

NickMJr said:
"Spot AF" is just marketing speak, its not as big of a deal as Canon wants you to believe it is.

It's silly to judge something that you have no knowledge of Nicky

NickMJr said:
http://www.dpreview.com/previews/canoneos7d/page3.asp

Spot AF uses just the central section of each AF point to give more precise focus when using telephoto lenses (at the risk of slower focus acquisition).

How slow is slow Nicky? Do you have first hand experience with the 7D or the D300?

NickMJr said:
http://www.robgalbraith.com/bins/multi_page.asp?cid=7-10042-10239-10240

Spot AF The AF detection area is restricted to just beyond the left, right, top and bottom borders of the selected AF point. In limited testing, this AF mode did seem to work as advertised, measuring focus from an area that extended little if at all outside the active AF point's rectangle.

The key words here is "seem to work as advertised"? Thanks for proving my points

By the way, instead of trolling the Canon forums Nicky, I would suggest you spending more time with your "superior" Nikon camera and learn how to use it, you have a lot of OOF shots with your "superior" Nikon camera at your online photo albums Nicky

http://home.comcast.net/~nickmjr/

like this one

http://home.comcast.net/~nickmjr/jade2/jade2.html

http://home.comcast.net/~nickmjr/miami-zoo/miami-zoo.html

NickMJr said:
_ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _
Nick M

Erik Magnuson · Sep 2, 2009

PerL said:
Would the 7D look better with NR off - possibly, but that is the problem with IRs comparisions of jpegs, the NR values differs between cameras.

The NR off and NR low images are available on I-R. And it does look better. Canon's demosacing and NR have often had a problem with low contrast reds like that fabric. Just another reason to shoot raw if that kind of thing matters.

--
Erik

Richard · Sep 2, 2009

the shutter right off the D300s as far as mp and video resolution. But in the photos, the resolution looks pretty close though the 7d is showing sharpening halo.

As far as AF the Nikon beats the Canon in specs but real world performance is more important.

It appears Canon has a good entry when compared to the Nikon d300. Only time will tell it if "better". And better for what? Video, resolution, sports shooting, landscape photography, duck photography? I guess I wished for a 7d with FF and better AF, I still don't have what I want, so I will be playing the waiting game.

yip chun yu said:
Which one is better based on the spec?

rwbaron · Sep 2, 2009

PerL said:
If you scroll the images to the left in the comparometer, look at the colored napkins, especially the one with the red leaves. The pattern is hard to recognize on the 7D.

And if you look at the D300 samples with NR low instead (the default is to strong), or even better, the D90, which probably is closer to D300s, with NR low, the difference is even bigger.

Would the 7D look better with NR off - possibly, but that is the problem with IRs comparisions of jpegs, the NR values differs between cameras.
--

I will concede that the Canon's don't always look the best on the reds but IMO the 7D is superior just about everywhere else in the frame. The proportional scale says it all for me on detail and the D300/90 are just not resolving nearly as much detail. The white yarn has no detail or definition on the D300/90 shots and looks blownout compared to the 7D and there is more definition in the salt shaker. For me the noise is pretty much a draw across all ISO's. There is also an overall softness in the D300/90 shots that if sharpened to the level of the 7D would also bring up the noise.

From what I've seen on several sites I think it looks promising.

Bob

--
http://www.pbase.com/rwbaron

nologo · Sep 2, 2009

NickMJr said:
Hmmm, let me see all dpreview and Rob Galbraith have to say about "Spot AF" is that is uses a smaller portion of the AF point. How do you know that what Canon calls a smaller spots is actually smaller than Nikons AF points?? Especially when you consider that for Nikon to fit 51 AF points within the same approximate area of Canon's 19 spots then ovious each one of those Nikon AF points are alot smaller to begin with. The D300 can use anyone of those small 51 AF points.

The idea here is that it uses the smallest area it can to achieve a focus lock. My assumption, if all the sensor are cross type, it probably does not use the crosses at all but just a small area of the actual AF point.

The D300 only has 15 real cross AF points. Think of it as turning off the cross points and focusing only on a small portion of one of the points.

Its all about AF precision... this is why they pointed to the example of shooting through a fence or gate, where an AF system can become confused. This system can avoid that, and all 51 of the D300's points do nothing to improve the accuracy of AF in this case.

NickMJr said:
"Spot AF" is just marketing speak, its not as big of a deal as Canon wants you to believe it is.

I agree, it may not be a huge deal, but including it is not a bad thing, as it may help certain users get what they need from the AF system.

However, one important note, this could indeed be a big deal in terms of focus accuracy, especially on telephoto lenses. The fact that you probably have never used the camera or this system means you have no real comprehension as to whether or not this is, in fact, a 'big deal'

NickMJr said:
http://www.robgalbraith.com/bins/multi_page.asp?cid=7-10042-10239-10240

Spot AF The AF detection area is restricted to just beyond the left, right, top and bottom borders of the selected AF point. In limited testing, this AF mode did seem to work as advertised, measuring focus from an area that extended little if at all outside the active AF point's rectangle.

Let me quote from another area of Rob Galbraith's review:

"We only had a very limited time with the 7D"
"We weren't able to make it work when we first had the prototype camera"

Not only did he himself claim that his testing was limited, but they were working with a prototype camera.

Let's wait and see a real review before you start spitting acid over the AF system.

flyingmonkey · Sep 3, 2009

NickMJr said:
You mean a few ooptions, like dual Memory slots? Which is a first for a non-pro camera. What about Spot metering for all 19AF points??? Nikon has Spot Metering in every AF point including the lowest model cameras they make.

You're right about these. Especially the AF-linked spotmeter - Canon should have included it.

NickMJr said:
I would say its closer albiet years later, The Nikon D70 was the first to have wireless flash, first for On-Demand gridlines.

True, but unless you regularly time travel to the past to buy your cameras

, now is what matters. And now Canon users have what appears to be a very capable alternative to the D300/D300s (pending actual test results).

By the way, to give credit where it is due, wireless flash was not an original Nikon development - Minolta had it for years before. Glad that Canon has caught up - finally.

NickMJr said:
The 7D only caught up to, but still no comparison to the D300.

"Still no comparison to" is in my opinion just hyperbole (as are other terms like these often used in these forums: "wipes the floor with", "kills", "destroys", etc.). Yes, the D300s does excel in some specs (AF tracking is probably still superior, AF-linked spotmeter, dual cards, etc), and the 7D in others (higher resolution at least at low ISOs, superior video functions, better LiveView implementation, full 8 FPS at 14-bits, etc.) Suffice it to say that now there is little or no reason to switch brands because of the lack of a comparable competitor (at least within this segment of APS-C).

madzazulu · Sep 7, 2009

7D blows D300s out of the water.

rrcphoto · Sep 7, 2009

Azimuth46 said:
Anyway I double checked on the Nikon US website ... and in the specifications there is now different in shooting speed between 12bit NEF and 14bit NEF. It's 7fps no matter what NEF you're using .. so the speed is the same.

regards

same crap that nikon pulls at times.. it's always buried somewhere, but you'll never see it mentioned until you really dig for it.

good luck finding it .. however there is ONE site from nikon that does state it .. you simply have to dig enough to find nikon admitting it.

"Based on CIPA Guidelines. When shooting in Continuous-servo AF (C) using Shutter-Priority Auto or Manual [M] exposure modes with a shutter speed of 1/ 250s or faster, and other settings at default. Continuous shooting speed for 14-bit NEF (RAW) is approx. 2.5 fps. "

http://imaging.nikon.com/products/imaging/lineup/microsite/d300s/en/speed-accuracy/

oh and on the D300s brochure it's also mentioned.

"Approx. 7 frames-per-second* continuous shooting — boosts your opportunities to capture more decisive moments Nikon’s latest DX-format fl agship delivers an exceptional degree of power from a remarkably agile body, enabling you to

shoot up to approx. 7 fps,* continuously, on basic battery alone. * Based on CIPA Guidelines. Continuous shooting speed for 14-bit NEF (RAW) is approx. 2.5 fps."

Kabe Luna · Sep 7, 2009

To make this statement, you have to be making specifications comparisons since the 7D isn't yet available. And since the 7D takes a great deal of its specification (and even certain aspects of its design) directly from the D300, I'm having a hard time understanding how it can "blow (the) D300s out of the water."

And please don't talk pixel count, because a sensor works in tandem with lenses and RAW converters to determine resolution as well as overall image quality, and the relative merits of the cameras in terms of image quality have yet to be considered. And when it is, it will be by actual users, with a mind toward optimizing the potential of each, not by reviewers inclined to use the most convenient tools, whether or not it puts one or another of the cameras at a disadvantage.

madzazulu said:
7D blows D300s out of the water.

--
- -
Kabe Luna

http://www.garlandcary.com

ohyva · Sep 7, 2009

NickMJr said:
rrcphoto said:

heck, we all might pop in to the nikon forums once or twice to say a few things .. but we don't LIVE in the nikon forums.

Click to expand...

We? have you self appointed yourself to speak for all the users on this site?

I guess you will find there is quite a lot of support for rrcphoto stament in these Canon forums.

It's actually quite funny that you as a well known Nikon advocate spend most of your times here in Canon forums. Of the 40 your last posts 34 are made in Canon forums - and all try to repeat the same "stuff" we have become so used to see from you. Or perhaps not funny but more sad

ohyva · Sep 7, 2009

NickMJr said:
The 7D now has a 63 area Color metering system, the D70 has a 1,005 pixel color sensor

Nick,

as you clearly are so well informed this stuff, please, provide us the info how many pixels are needed to make one area.

I think we would all appreaciate very much of this piece of real info.

rrcphoto · Sep 7, 2009

ohyva said:
NickMJr said:

rrcphoto said:

heck, we all might pop in to the nikon forums once or twice to say a few things .. but we don't LIVE in the nikon forums.

Click to expand...

We? have you self appointed yourself to speak for all the users on this site?

Click to expand...

I guess you will find there is quite a lot of support for rrcphoto stament in these Canon forums.

It's actually quite funny that you as a well known Nikon advocate spend most of your times here in Canon forums. Of the 40 your last posts 34 are made in Canon forums - and all try to repeat the same "stuff" we have become so used to see from you. Or perhaps not funny but more sad

If you look at Nicky's posting history over the last 12 months.

90% in the canon forums , about 5% in the nikon forums bashing canon gear, 2% on reviews of nikon gear in nikon forums and about 1% talking photography.

and to be blunt.. if Nicky had a D3 or a D300 .. he may have some credibility .. but if all these purported "advanced" features .. hasn't swayed such a strong supporter of all things Nikon to upgrade from a D70s... what kind of credibility is that?

so I stand by what I say .. I'd like to see a list of names if Nick can produce him of a canon user that spend the same ratio of time and effort in the nikon forums as what he does the canon forums.

I think we'll all sit and wait for nicky to come up with that one.

mansito · Sep 7, 2009

DP can do math. They just have a deep nikon bias cause they must be in their pockets.

This false claimis are just another sample of that. Though I must admit d300 looked to me as bright as 5D when i checked at camera store side by side. if 7D has a larger vewfinder than d300 wow I may have to use shades!

ohyva · Sep 7, 2009

Kabe Luna said:
To make this statement, you have to be making specifications comparisons since the 7D isn't yet available. And since the 7D takes a great deal of its specification (and even certain aspects of its design) directly from the D300,

Can you please be more specific what is copied from D300 ?

Kabe Luna said:
I'm having a hard time understanding how it can "blow (the) D300s out of the water."

I think this sort of "over statements" should just be disrecarded. IMHO the truth is most if not all the current dSLRs are very fine tools for photography. A bit different in some areas, somewhat more similar in others.

Kabe Luna said:
And please don't talk pixel count, because a sensor works in tandem with lenses and RAW converters to determine resolution as well as overall image quality, and the relative merits of the cameras in terms of image quality have yet to be considered.

Yep, but in all systems there is typically one factor that mainly sets the limitations. I myself very much prefer to have the lens as the limiting factor, not the camera body. The 7D may not yet be there, but it's likely closer than anything else in the market today.

Kabe Luna said:
And when it is, it will be by actual users, with a mind toward optimizing the potential of each, not by reviewers inclined to use the most convenient tools, whether or not it puts one or another of the cameras at a disadvantage.

madzazulu said:

7D blows D300s out of the water.

Click to expand...

ohyva · Sep 7, 2009

rrcphoto said:
If you look at Nicky's posting history over the last 12 months.

I do not need to because I have had these "forum conversations" with him since 2004. It's amazing how monotone one's thinking may be.

Tom C11968 · Sep 7, 2009

http://www.usa.canon.com/dlc/controller?act=GetArticleAct&articleID=3066
--
Tom

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