Why not a 0.6x 'unextender'?

yea

fstop = focal length divided by aperture diameter

I figured it out, all one has to do to get an f stop of less than 1 is make the lens 'shorter' than it's aperture's diameter is wide.

am I still confused? Yes, my fstop is at 0.7, so my DOF is so thin everything is blurry, nope no clarity at all ;)
 
Yes, you've got it all right. If a WCON would fit on 50f/1.0 would could find out what that f/stop would be like. Due to the DOF, the only use for me would be ultra-low light flash photography for focusing.

Jason
yea

fstop = focal length divided by aperture diameter

I figured it out, all one has to do to get an f stop of less than 1
is make the lens 'shorter' than it's aperture's diameter is wide.

am I still confused? Yes, my fstop is at 0.7, so my DOF is so thin
everything is blurry, nope no clarity at all ;)
 
Hi,

f-stop and light loss aren't the same thing. The f-stop is the relationship between the effective diameter and focal length of the lens. The problem is as one aproaches 1:1 distortion increases in a non-linear fashion.

So, you can have a f-stop less than one, but the design is going to have to do some fancy tricks to minimize the distortion. With modern computer controlled, laser measured, glass shaping systems, this sort of thing is easier to do than it used to be. I think there was a commercially available Canon 50mm f0.9 at one time, but I can't recall for sure. I know there's a 50mm f1.0, though, available right now, for a sizable chunk of change.

There is always light loss in a lens, mostly from reflection of light off the air/glass interface of each element. This is why coatings were developed, to reduce this loss. There are also designs that use a very small number of elements (such as a Tessar design).

This is the reason why prime lenses tend to outperform zooms - less elements. Of course, the elements are necessary to correct various distortions. The best thing would be to use one element, like the Mark-I Eyeball, but that's a bit too hard to do.

Lens design is, in reality, a large set of trade-offs. Here's a few practical examples:

I have a special 58mm f1.2 lens that has a specially shaped objective (front) element in it. It's designed to minimize coma (the star points seen from lights in night shots), and works very well for this. It's not all that great in any other application, though, being intended to shoot wide open, set at infinity, at night. It's great for cityscapes and such. Use a different lens for other shooting, though. Oh, and it cost over $2000 fifteen years ago. Quite a bit of money for a lens you can't use all the time....

I have another special lens, a 45mm f2.8, which is a Tessar 4-element design. It's a very flat field lens and great for reproduction (copy stand) work. It does tend to make everything look flatter than other lenses do, though. Sometimes that just what one wants, though. At least this wasn't a costly lens like the 58mm ($300).

I also have a standard 50mm f1.4 lens, which is best as a general purpose unit, and we all probably know how this lens performs (a 50 f1.4 or f1.8 being the mainstay of 35mm photography seemingly forever).

So, I have three prime lenses in the same basic focal length range, since each does something a bit different than the others. Would I need to add a 50mm f1.0 to the mix? Maybe someday - if I needed a lens with a very, very shallow DOF (like shooting the tips of eyelashes or something).

And, after admitting to having all these primes, I shoot most of the time with a zoom lens! Why? To minimize the foot work, of course. The key here is that I know what levels of performance I'm giving up by using the zoom. Should I need the extra performance, it's easy enough to swap the glass for the correct one to give me the specific performace needed.

However, I don't think that there will ever be any single lens that will work for everything all the time. This is why I dislike non-interchangeable lens cameras. I know the value of being able to pop those suckers on and off.

Stan
Is it not also that light never perfectly passes through glass?

Canon have a habit of making f1.0 lenses (they did one for EOS, and
I have several Super8 cine cameras with such a claim on the lens,
but unless you physically put MORE light in at the start you are
going to lose some in the glass. I think this is why the f1.0 lens
is such a wierd shape.

Correct me if I am wrong, but isn't there a mystery NASA lens tale
about Stanley Kubrick having this lens with an f-stop of less than
1? I believe this is also a 'trick' because there is no such thing
as 'light amplifying glass', despite that fact, companies manage to
make lenses that have EFFECTIVELY zero light loss, or in the NASA
case a lens that actually stops so little light its effective light
loss is negative (totally impossible right??)

Man its all too much to think about, and I think I remember
something about motion picture shutter angles affecting 'effective'
light levels, where stills cameras have no such boon, so it seems.
--
Amateur Photographer
Professional Electronics Development Engineer
 
Correct me if I am wrong, but isn't there a mystery NASA lens tale
about Stanley Kubrick having this lens with an f-stop of less than
1?
That's no mystery. I think the NASA lens Kubrick used was f0.75. He used it in a scene in Barry Lyndon that was lit entirely by candles. He also had to film it with an older camera because the rear element of the lens was way too far past the lens mount for a standard camera. Even with that, he had to push the film a stop or two.

No one would use a lens like that today. Film stock is faster and they even have special candles that burn much brighter if the director doesn't want to use additional lighting.
 
Hi,

They're used to communicate with submarines as the wavelength is so long that it penetrates under water. They are all around you all the time. Take the hot stuff out of the microwave and leave it on the counter exposed to the macrowaves. It'll cool right on down!

Stan
hi mustafa,

i like the way you think! when i read your post, it reminded me of
something i've always kind of wondered about: if microwave ovens
can be used to heat up things, couldn't there be a "macrowave"
device to cool things down?

i dunno...just thinkin' out loud i guess.

-norm
--
Amateur Photographer
Professional Electronics Development Engineer
 
Hi,

That would work - if they billed it as a DSLR only lens, I think. The distortions around the outer part of the image circle would probably be unacceptable for film use. This is a concept that I think is about to occur, producing lenses billed for use on the DSLRs and not on the FSLRs.

Stan
To retain lenses' 35mm angles of view on DSLRs with 1.5 or 1.6
multiplication ratios, couldn't the manufacturers simply produce
the opposite of an extender to be inserted between body and lens?

Or is there some immutable law of physics that I'm overlooking?
What would the effect be on the widest f-stop ratio of the prime
lens?
--
mustafa
--
Amateur Photographer
Professional Electronics Development Engineer
 
The distortions around the outer part of the image circle would
probably be unacceptable for film use.
So if a lot of lenses work well on a D60 because they only use the center of the image circle, thus avoiding most distortions, then it follows that for a 10-20mm zoom we just need a really big lens, whose "sweet spot" just happens to match that of a full-frame 35mm SLR.

Shouldn't be TOO expensive. You might even be able to afford it without taking on that second mortgage.....
 
See the following page:

http://www.visual-memory.co.uk/sk/ac/len/page1.htm

for lots of details about the 50mm f/0.7 lens that was used for Barry Lyndon. As others have said, the film today makes this not as necessary now. I heard he used ISO 100 pushed to 200 -- I imagine we can do better than that now.

There isn't anything super special about f/1.0 other than the design gets quite hard as the number gets smaller -- we can see that above 1.0 with the Canon 85mm f/1.8 being smaller, cheaper, and in some ways better than the 85m f/1.2. Similarly with the 50mm f/1.8, f/1.4, and f/1.0 offerings.

However, there is something special about f/0.5, which is really where the whole thing starts, assuming normal lenses (i.e. glass refractor in air, no active image enhancement, no fresnel lenses). I'm certainly no expert in the field (I keep meaning to order a textbook on lens design, but haven't yet), but a good article is here: http://www.optics.arizona.edu/Palmer/appnotes/The%20f-stops%20here.pdf .
Correct me if I am wrong, but isn't there a mystery NASA lens tale
about Stanley Kubrick having this lens with an f-stop of less than
1?
That's no mystery. I think the NASA lens Kubrick used was f0.75. He
used it in a scene in Barry Lyndon that was lit entirely by
candles. He also had to film it with an older camera because the
rear element of the lens was way too far past the lens mount for a
standard camera. Even with that, he had to push the film a stop or
two.

No one would use a lens like that today. Film stock is faster and
they even have special candles that burn much brighter if the
director doesn't want to use additional lighting.
 
the big question on the manufacturers is the market value....and long term investment,... seems like , they are makeing more money, buy selling the 17-35mm,.... and extra glass,...

they could modify existing lenses, to minimize the effect, but changeing production line is expensive, takes years,...
my plan on testing:
getting a AF macro extender
and getting some APO glass grinded and coated to stick it in the extender,....
problem is,... I don't want to spend $5k to get one 20mm prime adapted....
might as well shot film for that....

benefits,... it an $200 adapter could work nice and sharp on a zoom, you would gain extra light ..... of course the edges would suffere from the existing glass, as usuall...
your f2.8 zoom would be an f1.4 ??

note: I'd be testing it on a nikon mount. I'll let you know in a 1/2year, or as soon as full frame sensors are available....(photokina Koeln,...)
cheers, Robert Schultz

--
http://www.RobsPhoto.com
 
I just tried (with the proper amount of duct tape, etc.) a Meade Focal Reducer/Corrector with a couple of different lenses. Due to the 16mm airspace at one end of it, plus the effect of the optics ... it becomes a super macro. I actually took a couple of photos! My 17-35 cannot reach focus even touching the subject! (Focuses inside the lens!)

You will have exactly the same problems with distortion with a telecompressor on the back of a wide angle lens as you will with just a really wide angle lens ... actually, you'll have more problems! On my 1D I need a 13mm to get what I lost from my 17-35 ... so that 14mm Sigma is close enough. On a D30/60 ... well, have you EVER seen a sub-11mm rectilinear for a 35mm SLR?

I recommend getting a 1D to go with your D60. I am getting a D60 to go with my 1D!
Ken

with other wide angle lenses would occur in doing this ... barrel distortion would be really hard to control, etc. However ... as I have one ...
A telecompressor would be nice for my D60 even though I have a 14mm
Sigma. The 14mm is more or less equal to a 21mm with the
multiplier. Since the image circle is large enough to cover 35mm
it could work. One problem might be the focal distance. I not
sure if the telecompressor changes the focal length. In a scope
you can just refocus but the focal plane is fixed in the camera so
it could get complicated. Anyway I'd like to have one with some
high quality glass in it. I have a 1.4 extender (Mutar) for the
Hasselblad and it is extremely sharp.

BC
It might could be done, but at the cost of degrading the image (as
do 1.4x and 2x extenders) and also at the cost of losing a stop or
two of light from the extended light path (ditto).

Plus, camera makers would rather sell you a new ultra-wide lens.

Finally, it would be a short-lived product. Sensor sizes will march
up to full-frame--in which case it won't matter; or a new breed of
APS sized cameras and lenses with appear--in which case it won't
matter.

Multiplication factors are just a short-term blip in the curve.
--
 
and double it. That is what a 10-20 would cost ... at least ... and if it were feasible it would be available! I would buy one!
Ken
The distortions around the outer part of the image circle would
probably be unacceptable for film use.
So if a lot of lenses work well on a D60 because they only use the
center of the image circle, thus avoiding most distortions, then it
follows that for a 10-20mm zoom we just need a really big lens,
whose "sweet spot" just happens to match that of a full-frame 35mm
SLR.

Shouldn't be TOO expensive. You might even be able to afford it
without taking on that second mortgage.....
 
I guess you're refering to VLF (very low frequency) transmitters, but I've never heard them refered to as macrowaves despite being involved in their design at my last company.

Jason
Hi,

They're used to communicate with submarines as the wavelength is
so long that it penetrates under water. They are all around you
all the time. Take the hot stuff out of the microwave and leave it
on the counter exposed to the macrowaves. It'll cool right on down!
 

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