Why not a 0.6x 'unextender'?

Mustafa

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To retain lenses' 35mm angles of view on DSLRs with 1.5 or 1.6 multiplication ratios, couldn't the manufacturers simply produce the opposite of an extender to be inserted between body and lens?

Or is there some immutable law of physics that I'm overlooking? What would the effect be on the widest f-stop ratio of the prime lens?
--
mustafa
 
It might could be done, but at the cost of degrading the image (as do 1.4x and 2x extenders) and also at the cost of losing a stop or two of light from the extended light path (ditto).

Plus, camera makers would rather sell you a new ultra-wide lens.

Finally, it would be a short-lived product. Sensor sizes will march up to full-frame--in which case it won't matter; or a new breed of APS sized cameras and lenses with appear--in which case it won't matter.

Multiplication factors are just a short-term blip in the curve.
 
in telescopes. I have one that changes an f/10 scope to an f/6.3, at the same time flattening the field. 2000mm down to 1260mm on th focal length (on an 8" Schmidt-Cassegrain scope.)

Such a thing for a camera would have the exact same design problems as a super wide angle lens ... which is why swa lenses cost so much! As it would only really help on your widest lens ... just get a wider lens!
Ken
It might could be done, but at the cost of degrading the image (as
do 1.4x and 2x extenders) and also at the cost of losing a stop or
two of light from the extended light path (ditto).

Plus, camera makers would rather sell you a new ultra-wide lens.

Finally, it would be a short-lived product. Sensor sizes will march
up to full-frame--in which case it won't matter; or a new breed of
APS sized cameras and lenses with appear--in which case it won't
matter.

Multiplication factors are just a short-term blip in the curve.
 
Ken,

A telecompressor would be nice for my D60 even though I have a 14mm Sigma. The 14mm is more or less equal to a 21mm with the multiplier. Since the image circle is large enough to cover 35mm it could work. One problem might be the focal distance. I not sure if the telecompressor changes the focal length. In a scope you can just refocus but the focal plane is fixed in the camera so it could get complicated. Anyway I'd like to have one with some high quality glass in it. I have a 1.4 extender (Mutar) for the Hasselblad and it is extremely sharp.

BC
It might could be done, but at the cost of degrading the image (as
do 1.4x and 2x extenders) and also at the cost of losing a stop or
two of light from the extended light path (ditto).

Plus, camera makers would rather sell you a new ultra-wide lens.

Finally, it would be a short-lived product. Sensor sizes will march
up to full-frame--in which case it won't matter; or a new breed of
APS sized cameras and lenses with appear--in which case it won't
matter.

Multiplication factors are just a short-term blip in the curve.
 
a lens built into the body or left fitted to the mount which would also serve as a dust shield as well!

But as someone's stated, there could be a light drop :(

--
Olympus E10 +WCON, UZI +B300, D60, Nikon E950

My Ugly mug and submitted Photos at -------->
http://www.photosig.com/viewuser.php?id=27855

 
Thanks for the replies -- maybe it wasn't as stupid a question as I feared.

Would those who said there would be a loss of light please explain why? If a 1.4x loses one stop, and a 2x two stops, shouldn't a 0.6x in theory GAIN a stop?
--
mustafa
 
hi mustafa,

i like the way you think! when i read your post, it reminded me of something i've always kind of wondered about: if microwave ovens can be used to heat up things, couldn't there be a "macrowave" device to cool things down?

i dunno...just thinkin' out loud i guess.

-norm
 
hi mustafa,

i like the way you think! when i read your post, it reminded me of
something i've always kind of wondered about: if microwave ovens
can be used to heat up things, couldn't there be a "macrowave"
device to cool things down?

i dunno...just thinkin' out loud i guess.

-norm
Yeah, we couild call it a 'freezer' LOL.
--
mustafa
 
I ask the same question and point that Ken Phillips wrote that his adapter changes his f/10 scope to a f/6.3 !

Chuck
Thanks for the replies -- maybe it wasn't as stupid a question as I
feared.

Would those who said there would be a loss of light please explain
why? If a 1.4x loses one stop, and a 2x two stops, shouldn't a
0.6x in theory GAIN a stop?
--
mustafa
 
You're correct, and they are wrong. Ironic huh?
Thanks for the replies -- maybe it wasn't as stupid a question as I
feared.

Would those who said there would be a loss of light please explain
why? If a 1.4x loses one stop, and a 2x two stops, shouldn't a
0.6x in theory GAIN a stop?
--
mustafa
 
Oly makes a "wide" converter for the E10/20 that screws on the lens (63mm thread) and takes it from 35mm to 28. It is fairly decent quality too. There are third party converters that rate at 0.5x (but probably aren't that strong). Unfortunately, they degrade image quality considerably.
To retain lenses' 35mm angles of view on DSLRs with 1.5 or 1.6
multiplication ratios, couldn't the manufacturers simply produce
the opposite of an extender to be inserted between body and lens?

Or is there some immutable law of physics that I'm overlooking?
What would the effect be on the widest f-stop ratio of the prime
lens?
--
mustafa
--
Photos, tips and tests at:
http://www.geocities.com/glowluzid
 
If Mustafa's idea would shut up all the people asking for full frame sensors, I'm all for it. Sensor sizes will go where economics and physics takes them, and there is nothing about 24x36mm that makes that size particularly attractive. Anyone with enough money can have one now by buying the Contax, and they don't seem to be enjoying the experience.

If there was money in making digital-specific lenses, the market would be flooded with them. Unfortunately, every single sensor would require an entire line specially designed for their exact dimensions, with cooperation between the glass and chip makers from the design stage onward, and with a total life from inception to obselesence of about a year, with no chance of recouping R&D or tooling costs.

The other solution is for camera manufacturers to redesign whole camera systems to move the sensor closer to the front, allowing any sensor to be 'full-frame'. There's no money in that, either, since it would make new cameras prohibitively expensive, and reduce the releases from one every few months to one every few years.

Either find a way around the problem that you can live with, as Mustafa suggests, or make a nice conversion table and get used to living in an imperfect world.
 
The disadvantage to that is different size lenses might require different adapters. What they're talking about here is something in the camera or behind the lens somehow.

Jason
To retain lenses' 35mm angles of view on DSLRs with 1.5 or 1.6
multiplication ratios, couldn't the manufacturers simply produce
the opposite of an extender to be inserted between body and lens?

Or is there some immutable law of physics that I'm overlooking?
What would the effect be on the widest f-stop ratio of the prime
lens?
--
mustafa
--
Photos, tips and tests at:
http://www.geocities.com/glowluzid
 
The way to create such an adaptor is to place it into the light path, thus extending it. Any time you extend the path, either w/optics aka 1.4x/2x, with an extension tube, or with bellows, you lose light due to falloff.
 
Oly makes a "wide" converter for the E10/20 that screws on the lens
(63mm thread) and takes it from 35mm to 28. It is fairly decent
quality too.
It's L-Glass quality, the size of a small plate and believe it or not works on Canon lenses of 62mm or smaller!!! - works great on the 50mm 1.8 and zooms like the 35-135 / 28-105 :)

it's only 0 .8x I'd hate to see how big a 0.6X would be!

It looks like I'm getting the 28-135IS, infortunately this wide coverter is likely to vignette on it :(

--
Olympus E10 +WCON, UZI +B300, D60, Nikon E950

My Ugly mug and submitted Photos at -------->
http://www.photosig.com/viewuser.php?id=27855

 
Hi,

...and the current concept is what came about to replace it.

Let us enter the 'way back' machine and set it to 1994. With a little move laterally in the timespace continuum, we can also shift ourselves to land in Japan. Wher Nikon and Fuji are codeveloping a DSLR based more-or-less on the F4 film camera known as the Nikon E2 and Fujix DS-505.

We'll see that the standard CCD size of the day would have a large FLM, on the order of 5-6x, so they incorporated a reverse teleconverter (RTC) into the front of the camera. That allowed all 35mm lenses to work with the same angle of view as they did with film.

Sounds pretty good, right? Yes, it does, right up until you get to the problems.

First problem: The RTC lenses extended the nose of the camera by a factor of three. It now has the size of a 645 medium format camera.

Second problem: The weight of the extra glass makes it weigh about the same as a 645 as well.

Third problem: Light falloff from the extra optics loses three stops of light.

Fourth problem: recovering from the light loss means that the miniumum ISO is 800, but you can boost it to 3200 (only two steps for some reason I don't understand) if you don't mind images that look like they were taken in a snowstorm.

Fifth problem: Lenses with maximum apertures smaller than f2.8 tend to have vignetting in the corners of the image. Lenses with maximum apertures smaller than f4 tend to result in circular images, much like a fisheye lens, only without the distortion.

While Fuji and Nikon were trying to peddle this wonderful product, Kodak was developing larger CCD chips and bolting Nikon and Canon film bodies onto their cameras. All of the problems noted with the E2 were corrected, but they did have the FLM issue. Of course, the FLM was in the 1.5x region, and most people could live with this.

I also note that Kodak sold a lot more of the $25-30k 6mp units (both Nikon and Canon based) with a 1.3x FLM than Nikon and Fuji sold of their $10k 1.5mp units with RTC's.

The follow-on Nikon D1 and Canon D30 also opted for a half-sized imager and the resulting FLM, rather than accept all the issues associated with trying to use a RTC.

How do I know about all the fun one has with the E2. It's simple. I still have one! Guess how much I use it these days? Right. It does let my wife take some shots of completed designs for emailing to clients. It still works well enough for that, but that's about all.

I think the 'law of physics' you over looked is that the concept stinks in practice. However, you can try it yourself. Just get one of those lens mount to filter ring adapters and reverse mount a 50mm lens. That'll do the same thing. Photographers have been reverse mounting lenses for decades.

It's all about to become a moot point, I think. Kodak has an 11mp 24 x 36mm DSLR imager available these days. How long will it be before someone has that in a product? The chip announced in late June. If co-development of the application (meaning a camera) occured...well... keep a close eye on Photokina.....

Stan
To retain lenses' 35mm angles of view on DSLRs with 1.5 or 1.6
multiplication ratios, couldn't the manufacturers simply produce
the opposite of an extender to be inserted between body and lens?

Or is there some immutable law of physics that I'm overlooking?
What would the effect be on the widest f-stop ratio of the prime
lens?
--
mustafa
--
Amateur Photographer
Professional Electronics Development Engineer
 
Is it not also that light never perfectly passes through glass?

Canon have a habit of making f1.0 lenses (they did one for EOS, and I have several Super8 cine cameras with such a claim on the lens, but unless you physically put MORE light in at the start you are going to lose some in the glass. I think this is why the f1.0 lens is such a wierd shape.

Correct me if I am wrong, but isn't there a mystery NASA lens tale about Stanley Kubrick having this lens with an f-stop of less than 1? I believe this is also a 'trick' because there is no such thing as 'light amplifying glass', despite that fact, companies manage to make lenses that have EFFECTIVELY zero light loss, or in the NASA case a lens that actually stops so little light its effective light loss is negative (totally impossible right??)

Man its all too much to think about, and I think I remember something about motion picture shutter angles affecting 'effective' light levels, where stills cameras have no such boon, so it seems.
 
Correct me if I am wrong, but isn't there a mystery NASA lens tale
about Stanley Kubrick having this lens with an f-stop of less than
1? I believe this is also a 'trick' because there is no such thing
as 'light amplifying glass', despite that fact, companies manage to
make lenses that have EFFECTIVELY zero light loss, or in the NASA
case a lens that actually stops so little light its effective light
loss is negative (totally impossible right??)
Is it not also that light never perfectly passes through glass?
There is NOTHING mythical about a lens with an aperature less than 1.0. Less than 0 now, that's impossible AFAIK.

And going back to the previous topic... yes a lens will block "some" light. However, this is canceled out by the effective decrease in aperature from the gathering effect of the lens. When people are saying "getting more light" they are refering to decreasing the f-stop. That is, moving photons that were outside the sensor before, onto the sensor.

Jason
 
couldn't there be a "macrowave" device to cool things down?
You have a warped mind - maybe you would enjoy this article ;)
http://www.e20.physik.tu-muenchen.de/~pejak/abstracts/prl_0121.pdf

Physics is a dangerous field - it makes us think wierd things like 'If metal can melt to liquid, can it turn to steam at a higher temperature', but THEN you have to ask 'well what if I breath that steam, do I get metal coated lungs?'. (and no I don't need an answer on either of these questions, I got that one from my longsuffering physics teacher :D )

Further more though, never mind molecular dampening. If something is at Absolute Zero, its molecules are in a perfect state of being static. Thus far nobody has actually been able to achieve this (well last time I looked it was close but not yet at the cigar stage), but if they DO it implies a total form of stasis. No aging at all, literally, the vibration of molecules implies a stream of time, a passing of motion. Therefore, if you slow down molecules so much that they stop, if you KEEP slowing them down, do they move backwards? Does this mean things will de-age in such a state, or rather will they travel back in time instead?

Ok, this was WAY off topic, but you asked for it :p
 
To retain lenses' 35mm angles of view on DSLRs with 1.5 or 1.6
multiplication ratios, couldn't the manufacturers simply produce
the opposite of an extender to be inserted between body and lens?

Or is there some immutable law of physics that I'm overlooking?
What would the effect be on the widest f-stop ratio of the prime
lens?
--
mustafa
 

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