Help please with Photoshop vs. Windows colours

I know this has been kicked around before, but please hear me out! I have tried searching here and on other web resources for an answer.

I'm getting some terrible results between the final image in Photoshop and when viewed in a non-colour profile application. Final intended destination is web, so I'm assuming non-colour aware browser. HOWEVER, I believe I understand the workflow process and I thought I was doing everything right. I guess not...

I'm working with one particular image, featuring pale skin tones. When I go to move the image out of Photoshop the skin tones become overly pink. Could I run my workflow by you and see if you can see any issues?

• Import RAW images from camera (set to Adobe RGB) to Lightroom
• Make edits in Lightroom
• Edit in Photoshop, working space ProPhoto RGB
• Make edits in Photoshop
• Convert to sRGB (colours still look good)
• Save for web - at this point the colours of the ORIGINAL look bad, as well as of the optimised target. They look identical to my eye.
• View > Proof Setup > Monitor RGB also gives the same bad colours

Monitor is calibrated (and re-calibrated to rule out corrupt profile) using a Spyder2.

I'm clean out of ideas... If anyone has any thoughts I'd love to hear them.

Thanks.

--
Andrew

Try running EVERYTHING in sRGB and see what happens.

Fred

Twilight35 said:

Try running EVERYTHING in sRGB and see what happens.

Fred
--

Click to expand...

+1
--
~ Peano
http://www.radiantpics.com

I think it's a mismatch between the photo's color space and the working space in PS - you're editing an Adobe RGB file in ProPhoto without converting to ProPhoto. I suggest you stay in the same color space, as Fred mentioned, either sRGB or Adobe RGB. If the later, convert (not assign) the finished photo to sRGB and save a copy for web use.

RAW doesn't have a color space, this is defined during the conversion.

--
Best regards,
Doug
http://www.pbase.com/dougj

I'm importing the RAW file to Lightroom, which assigns ProPhoto and there's no changing that. When I move to Photoshop I also have the working space set to ProPhoto to match (I have warn on mismatch switched on and never get a warning come up). I'm already converting (not assigning) to sRGB before saving.

I'll try setting the working space to sRGB, but because Lightroom is ProPhoto with no option to change it I think that'll just perform the conversion to a more limited colour space earlier in the workflow with the same end result.

--
Andrew

I think the clue to this is that when converted to sRGB the picture still looks fine in Photoshop, it's when viewing in non-aware environments (save for web dialog, preview Monitor RGB or in Windows Explorer) that the shift occurs. Could this just be an image which is in an unusual part of the gamut which produces a strong shift, and I should edit in Monitor RGB preview to taste?

Thanks for the help so far.
--
Andrew

I think unless you're using a wide gamut monitor you won't see anything beyond sRGB on the monitor, so any shift that's occurring is in the sRGB space. After you convert to sRGB and save the file, what does it look like if you open the file in a web browser? It doesn't matter if the browser is color managed or not as the photo is in sRGB. Does this problem happen only with the one photo?

--
Best regards,
Doug
http://www.pbase.com/dougj

My monitor is a HP LP2275w - I don't believe this is a specially wide gamut monitor - calibrated with a Spyder2.

If I convert to sRBG, save and view in Firefox 3 (with colour management enabled) I see the image as I'd expect. If I view in Explorer 6 (not colour managed) it exhibits the colour shift.

I think the problem is there in all photos, but particularly noticeable in this one because of the jump from neutral to very pink skin tones.

--
Andrew

I've now had a chance to look at the file on another machine, and it looks much better. I'm therefore beginning to suspect my monitor profile, even though I've reprofiled it twice to try and eliminate that as a possibility.

Does this fit with the scenario? I wouldn't have thought you'd see a shift between sRGB and Monitor RGB, since the monitor should be able to display sRGB fine.

Could there be double application of the profile going on somewhere?

Thanks for helping - this is driving me to the edge!

--
Andrew

Any chance you could post an example?
--
Joe

Old Acct: http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/postersprofile.asp?poster=hjigihivhdif

I would, but not sure what it would prove. Also, what colour management do I perform on the screenshot before uploading it?

Basically, viewing in Photoshop either as ProPhoto or sRGB you see a nice picture with neutral, light / pale skin tones. View the sRGB version in a non-CM app and the skin tones are very pink.

--
Andrew

ajchunt said:

I'm importing the RAW file to Lightroom, which assigns ProPhoto and
there's no changing that. When I move to Photoshop I also have the
working space set to ProPhoto to match (I have warn on mismatch
switched on and never get a warning come up). I'm already converting
(not assigning) to sRGB before saving.

I'll try setting the working space to sRGB, but because Lightroom is
ProPhoto with no option to change it I think that'll just perform the
conversion to a more limited colour space earlier in the workflow
with the same end result.

--
Andrew

Click to expand...

You can chnge the export color space to sRGB or aRGB in Lightroom on the export page.
--
May The Light Be With You

That really sounds like the actual color space for the photo is not sRGB.

ajchunt said:

I would, but not sure what it would prove. Also, what colour management do I perform on the screenshot before uploading it?

Basically, viewing in Photoshop either as ProPhoto or sRGB you see a nice picture with neutral, light / pale skin tones. View the sRGB version in a non-CM app and the skin tones are very pink.

--
Andrew

Click to expand...

--
Best regards,
Doug
http://www.pbase.com/dougj

Hi Andrew, This problem has been going on for some time, and one of the reasons that a solution is hard to find is because it is mixed in with the whole color profile, and calibration mess. Last year I spent days searching for an answer, it was driving me nuts. Finally I found some forum, I can't remember which, where some kind soul pointed to the problem and the solution.

Before the photo had looked right in Photoshop, but in a browser, or XnView, it was way off. BUT I HAD saved it as sRGB. What am I doing wrong, must be a profile mismatch, my monitor, my color calibration, my eyesight, my mind.

Photoshop, at least in CS3, in Windows XP, when you save a jpeg as sRGB, is doing something weird. When opened in a browser it is dark and oversaturated. The solution for that kind soul, and myself, was - when saving as a jpeg - do so with NO color profile. YES, remove the profile. This solved the problem. It now appears in a browser, or any other non-color aware viewing environment, exactly as it looked in Photoshop.

Please try it and let me know if it works for you. -Patrick

Take a photo in KNOWN lighting conditions, like sunlight, with several natural colors you know well - a person if possible. Shoot in both RAW and JPG. The goal is to have both a RAW file to process and a JPG to view without editing. Set the camera for sRGB colorspace before you shot. This will affect the JPG file, not the RAW.

View the JPG in a non-managed viewer (like Internet Explorer). Does it look OK? View in FireFox. Still OK? Assuming your camera was set to the proper color temperature and does a reasonable job of processing JPGs, that should show you what your system will do with a managed or un-managed browser. If the colors are off in the un-managed browser, then your graphics board and monitor combination are off, and the color management system is compensating for this. Some cards have a control panel utility that let you alter this, and I had to do this once for a setup that was way off. It is a pain to do, however. I suspect the camera JPG will look OK. If not, stop here - the system is off and its not a Photoshop/Lightroom problem.

So, if the JPG image is acceptable in the un-managed and managed browsers, then load the JPG into Photoshop (sRGB colorspace) and see how it looks compared to the browsers. If it is way off, check to see if Adobe Gamma is on (shouldn't be) or it something else is off with the color management system. Go no farther until you get the CM system in Photoshop right.

Now load the RAW file in ProPhoto color space in Photoshop and Lightroom. They should both look the same as the JPG. If not, then I suspect something in the way you process RAW images. They should be somewhat close to the JPG - perhaps not as vivid, etc, but not too far different.

I think the difficulty in troubleshooting is you are starting with a RAW file and thus don't really know what the colors are. If your card/monitor and/or color management system is way off, you could be editing the colors wrongly to make it look good on-screen. It would still look OK on YOUR system, but not some other system.

Of course, your card/monitor could be really far off, and color management is doing its thing correctly. Compare the camera JPG on another system.

Hope that helps.
--
Ken Elliott
Equipment in profile.

It sounds like the problem here is not with your color profiling, but with your monitor itself. The fact that the photo appears correctly in any color managed application (LR, PS, FireFox) demonstrates that. The fact that the "unmanaged" photo looks ok on a friends monitor but not on yours indicates to me that your monitor baseline color balance is off significantly. The Spyder has properly profiled your monitor and given you a color profile that corrects the image display when you use color managed s/w.

One thing you could do is to adjust your monitor manually to make the sRGB unmanaged image look acceptably good, then recalibrate/profile with the Spyder. If I am correct, then you should get the best of both worlds. On the other hand, if I'm wrong, then you may mess everything up!

I'd interested in hearing the results of the previous poster's suggestion to save the sRGB file with no profile in it at all. If that works, then you are done, with no fidlding around with manual setting changes to the monitor and reprofiling.
--
Dan

Twilight35 said:

Try running EVERYTHING in sRGB and see what happens.

Click to expand...

Here is my quick test using my dogs toy, lol: (Click on images so they open out)







To the op:

Why is it that you are needing to view your images, in a noncolor-managed program? Is it because you are trying to do some project with your images in a program that doesn't support CM and are wanting a better representation of what your images really look like, something like that?

Or, are you trying to get an idea of what other people are seeing when you post your images on the web?

If it's the first one, then you might need to find some kind of work around for it.

But, if it's the second, keep this in mind: You have no control over that. The only thing you can do to help in this is to Calibrate your monitor regularly and convert your image to srgb prior to uploading to the web (it does not guarantee that they will see what you want them to see, but it's your best chance at it). Beyond that, you don't know if they are viewing your images on an srgb monitor or a wide gamut monitor, is it an s-IPS or a TN panel? Do they have their monitor calibrated - probably not unless they are into this type of thing. Are they viewing in a neutral colored room or one with red walls...the list goes on.

I think what Patrick_C has to say is one of the best explanations I've read on this type of thing:

http://www.gballard.net/psd/go_live_page_profile/embeddedJPEGprofiles.html

Also, work your way thru this article (it's looks like alot, but it's actually an easy read if you follow along and actually do the steps. If you do, I think you will get a much clearer understanding of what's going on). It sounds like you have a wide gamut monitor and you can test it in this article:

http://www.gballard.net/psd/go_live_page_profile/embeddedJPEGprofiles.html

As you can see, my calibrated monitor shows color shifts and increased red saturation if I view my images in a non-cm programs - so I use LR for viewing and I use Firefox with CM enabled when on the web. My prints match what I see in PS, not what I see in a non-CM program. That's what is important.

(unless your saturation problem is way more extreme than this, then there might be some other kind of problem going on).

--
Chandra

Dan Finnerty said:

I'd interested in hearing the results of the previous poster's
suggestion to save the sRGB file with no profile in it at all. If
that works, then you are done, with no fidlding around with manual
setting changes to the monitor and reprofiling.

Click to expand...

Not embedding a profile can have it's own set of draw backs (click on each photo to see it's comparison):







--
Chandra

Andrew -

It would help to look at the color space that your jpg is ultimately ending up in. I.E. -- If it's RGB... then you should be able to open it in Photoshop, Lightroom, a browser, etc.. and see the same colors. I agree with the advice way up above -- take color space out of the picture (pardon the pun) and use RGB as your color space in everything. Forget ProPhoto, forget Adobe RGB, forget anything that isn't straight RGB or sRGB...

--
Joe

Old Acct: http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/postersprofile.asp?poster=hjigihivhdif

--But the O.P. Andrew was asking about export to the web, and the un-colormanaged browser still rules the land as of today. Yes I know about Safari, and now Firefox, which in any transition - if it catches on, will be a nightmare. What if half the web is using a color managed browser, and half not, what will you do? I will still be trying to put out pictures that look good on everyone's monitor. So no Prophoto or AdobeRgb until my grandmother is using a color managed browser.

sRgb and 'no profile at all' are seen as the same thing by any application that has no color 'awareness'.

Go easy on that Prophoto Kool-aid if you expect to be driving in cyberspace tonight.

By the way Andrew: I am first using edit> color profile> no profile on a COPY destined for the web. Then Save as> jpeg. I am NOT using save for the web from the file menu.

As far as I know, this workaround is only for CS3 on Windows XP. If it is a problem on other operating systems, or other versions of Photoshop, I just can't say. I have no experience.

Easily seen by opening an image in Photoshop, resizing Photoshop to fill half the desktop, and opening a browser window right next to it with the same image. -Patrick