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Thoughts on the EP-1 and G1/GH1
- Thread starter Ann Chaikin
- Start date
John Bean (UK)
Forum Pro
You're probably right. The LX1 experience was an eye-opener but seems too recent to be embellished by nostalgia. But it probably is just that.. nostalgia isn't what it used to be in the old days ;-)Personally I don't feel that way; for me the LX3 retains the identityI no longer have a LX1 and bizarre as it seems I miss something about
it that's lacking in the LX3... but I can't quite work out what it
is. If I ever come across a LX1 going cheap I'll have it
and refines the concept of the original LX1. Maybe the LX1 was a
little more exciting in its day, when the ideas behind it were so
fresh.
--
John Bean [BST ('British Stupid Time' - GMT+1)]
I just got a G1 a week ago, then noticed the E-P1 was going to be released. I've been looking for a really well performing compact after using everyone of the best small sensor models and inevitably walking away dissatisfied.
But now, even though the E-P1 is smaller than the G1 by trimming off the hump and the right hand grip, after using the G1 for a week I think I'm willing to accept the somewhat larger dimensions, because it is such a fine little camera to use.
The fact is, the G1 is packing some real functionality into the extra space: the EVF, the great ergonomics, and the flexibility of the articulated LCD (which I also don't use a lot, but that is really nice to have when you need it).
So I guess I'm feeling like the E-P1 is offering style over a goodly amount of functionality, and being a somewhat serious amateur (although I hesitate to say it), it kind of goes against the ethics of useability were I to return the G1 for the E-P1, which I have considered. I'm thinking out loud here, but the G1 has replaced 6 cameras for me, my former compacts, as well as my 4/3rds DSLRs. I don't see the E-P1 doing that, definitely not as completely and would require too many compromises over the G1 as a main camera.
So I plan on taking advantage of the new lens development to add to my G1, and perhaps adding an E-p1 body in the more distant future as a second camera once it has become passe in the market place and reduced price, refurbs or used examples become available.
But the little thing is darn seductive, so we'll see if logic holds out over impulse. The E-P1 really helps the sustainability and viability of micro4/3rds and that's exciting.
But now, even though the E-P1 is smaller than the G1 by trimming off the hump and the right hand grip, after using the G1 for a week I think I'm willing to accept the somewhat larger dimensions, because it is such a fine little camera to use.
The fact is, the G1 is packing some real functionality into the extra space: the EVF, the great ergonomics, and the flexibility of the articulated LCD (which I also don't use a lot, but that is really nice to have when you need it).
So I guess I'm feeling like the E-P1 is offering style over a goodly amount of functionality, and being a somewhat serious amateur (although I hesitate to say it), it kind of goes against the ethics of useability were I to return the G1 for the E-P1, which I have considered. I'm thinking out loud here, but the G1 has replaced 6 cameras for me, my former compacts, as well as my 4/3rds DSLRs. I don't see the E-P1 doing that, definitely not as completely and would require too many compromises over the G1 as a main camera.
So I plan on taking advantage of the new lens development to add to my G1, and perhaps adding an E-p1 body in the more distant future as a second camera once it has become passe in the market place and reduced price, refurbs or used examples become available.
But the little thing is darn seductive, so we'll see if logic holds out over impulse. The E-P1 really helps the sustainability and viability of micro4/3rds and that's exciting.
viztyger
Senior Member
This is just my personal thinking out loud reasoning:
I was getting ready to spring for the G1, but as of today I am uncertain:
I like the EVF of the G1.
I have some OM legacy lens I want to use, including a macro.
I like the articulating screen of the G1.
On the other hand:
The EP-1 has in-body IS. That's important.
Sample pictures show better high ISO noise levels.
I have a Canon G10 as my pocket camera. I could get rid of that with the EP-1. If worst comes to worst I can see the EP-1 going into one pocket, the lens into another.
I use external flash even on my G10 so that doesn't matter.
The one issue with the EP-1 is manual focusing with the LCD.
I am now leaning toward the EP-1 and the main reason is in-body IS. I had a Fuji compact a while back that didn't have it, and said to myself never again.
As far as feel and balance with a larger lens, it seems that the two cameras weigh about the same. So that part of the equation is equalized. I have a Canon 2x extender for my G10, which makes a heavy package and there is no problem. The weight is on my left hand on the lens.
Finally one reason I am leaning toward the EP-1 has little to do with the two cameras. It's my wife. Buying either is going to be a hard sell right now, and if I can present this as trading up (I have the teleextender as well as a 430 EXII flash) rather than keeping both outfits, then I might stay alive.
Michael
I was getting ready to spring for the G1, but as of today I am uncertain:
I like the EVF of the G1.
I have some OM legacy lens I want to use, including a macro.
I like the articulating screen of the G1.
On the other hand:
The EP-1 has in-body IS. That's important.
Sample pictures show better high ISO noise levels.
I have a Canon G10 as my pocket camera. I could get rid of that with the EP-1. If worst comes to worst I can see the EP-1 going into one pocket, the lens into another.
I use external flash even on my G10 so that doesn't matter.
The one issue with the EP-1 is manual focusing with the LCD.
I am now leaning toward the EP-1 and the main reason is in-body IS. I had a Fuji compact a while back that didn't have it, and said to myself never again.
As far as feel and balance with a larger lens, it seems that the two cameras weigh about the same. So that part of the equation is equalized. I have a Canon 2x extender for my G10, which makes a heavy package and there is no problem. The weight is on my left hand on the lens.
Finally one reason I am leaning toward the EP-1 has little to do with the two cameras. It's my wife. Buying either is going to be a hard sell right now, and if I can present this as trading up (I have the teleextender as well as a 430 EXII flash) rather than keeping both outfits, then I might stay alive.
Michael
JoeVC
Leading Member
--As a G1 owner, I'm obviously happy with anything that adds options to
the m4/3 system although the E-P1 isn't really something that
interests me (various reasons, especially EVF). But I hope it's
successful. Having both Oly and Panasonic developing m4/3 lenses
could make for an expensive year for me...
Two things are making me especially happy at the moment. The 17mm
pancake lens (especially at that price) and the indication that Oly
will make more of their regular 4/3 lenses auto focus with m4/3.
I agee. I'm also thinking that we have the option of not only the 17mm pancake lens (although I'd prefer a 10-12mm prime) but also we can add the Oly external viewfinder onto the G1's hotshoe, if we so desire, giving us a 3-way viewfinder option (LCD, EVF and optical.)
JoeVC
Leading Member
--
You should have also included the built-in flash with all the extras the G1 offers.
I also recall, in the days right after the G1 was released, lots of discussion about how the G1 was TOO SMALL of a body for many people. Now we have an even smaller body; although to Oly's credit the controls are layed out differently compared to the G1, so I'll reserve my judgement on the ergonomics of this new camera.
But my G1 I find to be a perfect handling camera for my hands; I wouldn't want one any larger or smaller, especially given all the built-in features it already has.
viztyger wrote:
...
The preview here says that Panasonic didn't share the superfast CD autofocus technology with Olympus so the EP-1's autofocus is the same as the 620 (slow), pretty much a deal breaker with my needs (wants).
Fast CD autofocus in was one of the main reasons I was able to go with the G1 rather than a DSLR. I do love the new lenses coming out, I find the 17mm tempting although unless it is fantastic I don't see me buying it. If it was more than just 1 stop faster (like f2 or faster) I would have already pre-ordered it
I also am looking forward to seeing how successful Olympus is at getting their "legacy" 4/3 lenses working with the adapter, that would open up a great world of lenses.
-chris
---------
http://www.flickr.com/photos/cftarnas/
...
...
The preview here says that Panasonic didn't share the superfast CD autofocus technology with Olympus so the EP-1's autofocus is the same as the 620 (slow), pretty much a deal breaker with my needs (wants).
Fast CD autofocus in was one of the main reasons I was able to go with the G1 rather than a DSLR. I do love the new lenses coming out, I find the 17mm tempting although unless it is fantastic I don't see me buying it. If it was more than just 1 stop faster (like f2 or faster) I would have already pre-ordered it
I also am looking forward to seeing how successful Olympus is at getting their "legacy" 4/3 lenses working with the adapter, that would open up a great world of lenses.
-chris
---------
http://www.flickr.com/photos/cftarnas/
Godfrey
Forum Pro
The G1 is a more versatile, broader spectrum camera. For eye-level work without a tripod, its EVF is superior to an LCD only camera and the articulating screen is particularly useful when working with a tripod.
The EP-1 will be a better camera in a narrower range of use circumstances. Used with the 17mm prime and the matched OVF, it should be a superb street shooter. The in-body IS gives it more flexibility for some kinds of hand-held work and will be essential for longer focal length lenses due to the lack of eye level viewfinder.
The good thing about both these cameras is that whatever lens you want to buy can be used on either, and you can buy the Olympus body-only too. They complement each other. If I were buying only one camera, the G1 would likely be my choice as it can do more and is still compact and light. But since I already have the G1, the EP-1 is attractive to me for an even more portable solution for use in certain kinds of photographic work.
Either one bests the Canon G10 in performance aside from the G10's slightly smaller size with lens retracted.
--
Godfrey
http://www.gdgphoto.com
http://www.flickr.com/photos/gdgphoto/sets
http://twitter.com/godfreydigiorgi
philbarton
Senior Member
==========
I have to admire Olympus' marketing moreso than this form factor, which I doubt has appeal to DSLR current owners - especially at that price point. Look at the linited range of their zoom.
Since the Olympus has sensor-shift, will it inter-operate with the Panasonic 14-140mm with OIS? Is the body set up the same as GH1?
philbarton
Senior Member
http://www.adorama.com/alc/news/11677
Image stabilizer
System: Built in (Imager shift image stabilizer)
Mode: 3 modes (2 dimensional activation, 1 dimensional activation in landscape frame to vertical direction moving, 1 dimensional activation in portrait frame to horizontal direction moving ), OFF
Manual Function: input focal length 8, 10, 12, 16, 18, 24, 28, 30, 35, 40, 48, 50, 55, 65, 70, 75, 80, 85, 90, 100, 105, 120, 135, 150, 180, 200, 210, 250, 300, 350, 400, 500, 600, 800, 1000
Effective compensation range: Approx.4EV steps (in maximum effect with 50mm lens)
Shutter speed range: 2 - 1/4000 sec. (Not available when Bulb is selected)
IS for Movie: Shifting electronic image (so called Digital IS)
==============
The smaller sensor and smaller MASS allowed them to totally re-engineer, and to provide mono-directional control for panning. They may have their own recording-noise issue; but no one is thinking about that, since no one is really shooting decent video yet with any of these. It appears that mechanical sensor-shift does not operate in movie mode, but rather the electronic system.
This is interesting; and it sounds somewhat like part of the DUAL system of OIS that Samsung uses; not what we think of as a purely mechanical system:
"IS for Movie: Shifting electronic image (so called Digital IS)"
http://www.olympusamerica.com/cpg_section/dismode.asp
Note that they shift to a HIGHER SHUTTER SPEED AND HIGHER ISO to do it. This is NOT a system that operates at lower shutter speeds; but rather at higher ISO allowing the shutter speed to be increased by the camera itself.
http://www.olympus-europa.com/consumer/dslr_16742.htm
Image stabilizer
System: Built in (Imager shift image stabilizer)
Mode: 3 modes (2 dimensional activation, 1 dimensional activation in landscape frame to vertical direction moving, 1 dimensional activation in portrait frame to horizontal direction moving ), OFF
Manual Function: input focal length 8, 10, 12, 16, 18, 24, 28, 30, 35, 40, 48, 50, 55, 65, 70, 75, 80, 85, 90, 100, 105, 120, 135, 150, 180, 200, 210, 250, 300, 350, 400, 500, 600, 800, 1000
Effective compensation range: Approx.4EV steps (in maximum effect with 50mm lens)
Shutter speed range: 2 - 1/4000 sec. (Not available when Bulb is selected)
IS for Movie: Shifting electronic image (so called Digital IS)
==============
The smaller sensor and smaller MASS allowed them to totally re-engineer, and to provide mono-directional control for panning. They may have their own recording-noise issue; but no one is thinking about that, since no one is really shooting decent video yet with any of these. It appears that mechanical sensor-shift does not operate in movie mode, but rather the electronic system.
This is interesting; and it sounds somewhat like part of the DUAL system of OIS that Samsung uses; not what we think of as a purely mechanical system:
"IS for Movie: Shifting electronic image (so called Digital IS)"
http://www.olympusamerica.com/cpg_section/dismode.asp
Note that they shift to a HIGHER SHUTTER SPEED AND HIGHER ISO to do it. This is NOT a system that operates at lower shutter speeds; but rather at higher ISO allowing the shutter speed to be increased by the camera itself.
http://www.olympus-europa.com/consumer/dslr_16742.htm
Lamprecht
Leading Member
I do like the EP-1 concept, but, I have a problem with it not having an EVF. Mainly because I can't visualize myself using it with its optional flash while holding it at arms length looking at the LCD to take a picture. Now if it was slightly thicker to accommadate a swivvel HR LCD, that would work for me. I am excited about the announcement that more M4/3 primes are to be made by Oly.
Richard
Richard
Jay Gloab630253
Senior Member
News? No, but the 43rumors.com site has hinted that Panasonic may have a compact µ4/3 camera up its sleeves.
If this comes to pass, I hope it offers either a much improved LCD for viewing in bright light, or an EVF. The latter need not be as big or high-resolution as that in the G1 to be useful; something like half the pixels would still be a big step up from the EVFs in compact cameras. I don't know if this would fly in the numbers-obsessed consumer world, but I'd gladly take a somewhat smaller LCD in order to accomodate a useful EVF.
--
-Jay
http://flickr.com/photos/48504267@N00/
Michael J Davis
Senior Member
The 'pancake' lens samples just released on the dpr site, seem to indicate that it doesn't have a larger aperture than f6.3; why no 100ISO shots at wider apertures?The preview here says that Panasonic didn't share the superfast CD
autofocus technology with Olympus so the EP-1's autofocus is the
same as the 620 (slow), pretty much a deal breaker with my needs
(wants).
Fast CD autofocus in was one of the main reasons I was able to go
with the G1 rather than a DSLR. I do love the new lenses coming out,
I find the 17mm tempting although unless it is fantastic I don't see
me buying it. If it was more than just 1 stop faster (like f2 or
faster) I would have already pre-ordered it
Mike
--
Mike Davis
Photographing the public for over 50 years
http://www.flickr.com/photos/watchman
G1 FZ50
I haven't looked at the samples yet, but it is listed as a 17 f/2.8. Ah, just looked. I did remember that they mentioned that some of the EXIF was incorrect, but that had to do wtih the FL on the new zoom lens. These all say f/6.3 or 8.0. Too bad--I would be a lot more interested to see it used to take low light shots or shallow DOF. Now--need to go back and look more since I am interested in the lens for my G1.
--
Diane
-----------------------
Diane B
http://www.pbase.com/picnic
G1 gallery http://www.pbase.com/picnic/temp_g1
bluevellet
Senior Member
You have to turn IS off in either lens or on the E-P1. You can't have both running.
philbarton
Senior Member
----------
That's logical - but since apparently Panasonic did not provide the fast AF technology to Olympus, will the Olympus body even "talk" to the OIS lens?
The mount is the same; but the mount is the pathway.
NickPix
Senior Member
Hi Diane,
Was reading this thread with interest, and just took a (long!) look at your pbase gallery - beautiful images from your G1, regardless of lens choice ! (although you do seem to have several !)
Excellent images - really enjoyed them, especially the ones taken at Stowe
--
All the best,
Nick
New & updated galleries, reviews & more at :
http://lx3imaging.wordpress.com (LX3)
http://nickbland.blogspot.com (CX1)
http://nickbland.zenfolio.com (CX1/LX3/D3/F100fd/F30)
http://www.proweddingphotos.co.uk (D3/D200)
Was reading this thread with interest, and just took a (long!) look at your pbase gallery - beautiful images from your G1, regardless of lens choice ! (although you do seem to have several !)
Excellent images - really enjoyed them, especially the ones taken at Stowe
--
All the best,
Nick
New & updated galleries, reviews & more at :
http://lx3imaging.wordpress.com (LX3)
http://nickbland.blogspot.com (CX1)
http://nickbland.zenfolio.com (CX1/LX3/D3/F100fd/F30)
http://www.proweddingphotos.co.uk (D3/D200)
I'm sure it will talk, they are both m4/3s lenses (after all, panny 4/3 lenses work on oly 4/3 bodies). I bet it just won't focus as fast as it would on a G1/GH1 body as it doesn't have the improved logic from the Panasonic "driving" it.
I also wonder if part of the speed of the Panny system is from using very fast if bulkier focus motors? Olympus may have sacrificed speed for size.
--
http://www.flickr.com/photos/cftarnas/
safaridon
Senior Member
-- Panasonic made it clear from the start that the G1 series was only the first of a number of other models they had in mind. It is becoming more apparent by the hour that the G1 shape was the most economical for housing the large high
definition EVF, good flash and large wide articulating screen and grip for 14-140 size lens used on GH1. If Pany had not come out with their very good EVF, fast contrast AF, and good potential for manual focus of legacy lenses, m4/3 might not have gotten off the ground in the first place as a format capable of either DSLR alternative or suppliment to DSLR.
Without question Pany will have a E-P1 sized compact out projected by October which will have optional EVF instead of single lens OVF, in-body flash, and 20/1.7 pancake as std. lens. You know Pany will be using higher resolution screen probably ODEL much better than present LCDs. That model could also be slightly smaller than E-P1 because no IBIS. With Panys much better and faster contrast autofocus adn faster primes and maybe zoom that model should be very attractive in an all metal body.
Pany could also be planning a mini L1 with smaller hd EVF in upper left corner but smaller 2.7" OLED screen to 16:9 format underneath and that model could also be similar size as E-P1 but maybe a bit thicker to make room for EVF. Pany would want the first model so they could sell less expensive version sans opt EVF to keep the price down with existing kit zoom lens.
--From the pictures of the IBIS mechanism it is amazing they were able to fit that into E-P1 body but as someone pointed out at 1.4" thick at base already as thick as G1 at its narrowest just a cleaver design slopes to make it appear smaller, also same approximate overall width. The real question is whether or not all this crowding is going to effect the sensor heating as note only 7 minute video permissible to keep from overheating. Also this E620 IS was less effective than those used on other Oly products so at best 2 stops improvement likely.
Surprisingly the new Oly zoom lens is actually slightly larger diamenter than the Pany m4/3 14-45 and when extended for use is also longer! The Pany OIS zoom lenses will be much better for video use, hence why Oly having to use digital IS for that mode and forgo continous autofocus when filming.
I really like the inovationv design which Oly is using for their zoom keeping the stored size to a minimum and I would expect other manufacturers esp. Pany to follow suit very soon. What I really would like to see would be Pany putting a modified LX3 lens 24-60+/ f 2.8-4.0 into their compact with similar collapsing design as Oly has used only increasing the lens element size to fit within 52mm size. Making it any longer would lower the speed and increase the size too much. That wider wa range and faster zoom would be a huge attraction as portrait end could be easily covered by fast prime say 40/f2.
I really like the Olys all metal body and IBIS and based on other Pany models would expect the same all metal bodies. I think Oly making a big mistake with slower contrast AF and lack of optional EVF and this will give the Pany mini model a decided advantage inspite of no IBIS. Oly probably going for lower resolution screen on first model to entice buyer later to second model but that is no excuse as second model likely to have swingout or swivel design anyway and the higher resolution screen would have cost very little more to implement.
I think the problem was lack of cooperation between Pany and Oly with Pany not willing to give Oly their EVF technology and fast contrast AF systems because Oly not willing to share their IBIS system in turn. Hopefully for the sake of m4/3 format they will cooperate better in the future and we will all benefit.
--To me Oly paid way too much attention to styling and while that may increase sales for some segments of the market, I would have preferred keeping it simple so as not to impede functuality ie puting controls on the left side seems to rule out placing an EVF there in followup model so if they want to keep same size will have to be an external EVF with swinging or swivel LCD. As Pany is rumored to be going for optional EVF they will likely provide one for Oly only these models will not have a EVF as large or necessarily as capable as that in the G1 or GH1.
They again maybe Oly will spring for an all new larger model, we shall see and the suspense builds.
For me my interst lies with a mini L1 with inbody EVF or Oly second model to come.
Just my two bits
safaridon
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