Some recent thoughts on using the Phase One P45+ "medium format" system

Ellis Vener

Community Leader
Forum Moderator
Messages
22,154
Solutions
54
Reaction score
15,950
Location
Atlanta, USA, US
About ten days ago a project came up that required extremely high resolution very large prints. We rented a Phase One body ( this is what used to be known as the Mamiya 645D), an 80mm f/2.8D lens and a 39mp Phase One P45+ back. We also brought along two well tuned Canon 5D Mark II systems. All the cameras were used with heavy weight tripods, heads and cable releases.

To be polite about about it, in terms of sheer image quality, once set up properly, the Phase One P45+ simply skunked the Canons - -and it would have done the same to Nikon D3X files as well. The difference was shocking.

The Phase One 45+ produced iamges which captured a level of detail 8x10 film examined with a a high quality 4X or 6X loupe would be very hard pressed to match. I've shot a pretty fair amount of 4x5 and 8x10 film and I am basing this comment on that experience

Bu there are some caveats. Most of them will be familiar to anyone who ever used a view camera extensively.

The biggest one is that as Joseph Holmes noted in his articles that I believe I provided links for earlier, the camera and the back have to be very carefully calibrated to each other. Where the camera's AF system, viewfinder and lens marking thought infinity was was incorrect for this specific camera body and back combination. To find focus you have to work tethered (At least until you find your focus point and tape the lens very solidly so that it doesn't slip).

Of course if you have a good dealer you should work with them to discover if this is a problem with the set up you are buying and if so, to resolve this problem if you are purchasing or leasing your camera.

The camera has a lot of vibration from the mirror coming up so even at relatively short shutter speeds like 1/250 and 1/400th it is prudent to use a standard cable release to first lock the mirror up and use the electronic cable release a couple of seconds later to make the exposure. This is probably not necessary in most studio shooting situations.

And as with any camera system, not all lenses are equal. The rental agency specifically singled out the 80mm f/2.8D lens as being extremely good.

Medium format digital cameras are simply not as versatile as 35mm SLR based DSLRs. They do not handle as fast, and they do not have the lens range. The body we used burned through AA batteries. However the back, which has it's own battery, didn't.

These are the advantages I see of certain 35mm based DSLRs over a medium format system:

Even compared to a Canon EOS-1Ds MArk III and Nikon D3X these systems are not cheap.

There is alot to be said for integratign the digital imaging sections of the camera with the rest of the camera body, especially if it (like the nikon D3X, D3, D700 and D300, and Cannon EOS-1D Mark 3, 5D Mark 2, 1Ds Mark 3 bodies) has an autofocus fine tune adjust feature.

With a medium format back the sensitivity (ISO) range is not as large - -in fact you really want to keep it in the ISO 50-200 range, preferably at IS0 100.

Your workable exposure range doesn't extend much past 2 seconds before the noise to signal ratio becomes an image quality factor.

Finally not all photos need this high of quality, in fact I suspect that even for high end commercial, architectural, product, and magazine photographers very few projects actually require it.
 
About ten days ago a project came up that required extremely high
resolution very large prints. We rented a Phase One body ( this is
what used to be known as the Mamiya 645D),
Where's you get that from. It's still a Mamiya AFDIII
an 80mm f/2.8D lens and a
39mp Phase One P45+ back. We also brought along two well tuned Canon
5D Mark II systems. All the cameras were used with heavy weight
tripods, heads and cable releases.

To be polite about about it, in terms of sheer image quality, once
set up properly, the Phase One P45+ simply skunked the Canons - -and
it would have done the same to Nikon D3X files as well. The
difference was shocking.

The Phase One 45+ produced iamges which captured a level of detail
8x10 film
I think a lot of people would rather diagree with you on this
examined with a a high quality 4X or 6X loupe would be very
hard pressed to match. I've shot a pretty fair amount of 4x5 and 8x10
film and I am basing this comment on that experience

Bu there are some caveats. Most of them will be familiar to anyone
who ever used a view camera extensively.
But this isn't a view camera. You don't don't even know the difference between a dSLR and a view camera?? Anyway, a view camera is a whole different ballgame from the dSLR you hired.
The biggest one is that as Joseph Holmes noted in his articles that I
believe I provided links for earlier, the camera and the back have to
be very carefully calibrated to each other. Where the camera's AF
system, viewfinder and lens marking thought infinity was was
incorrect for this specific camera body and back combination. To find
focus you have to work tethered (At least until you find your focus
point and tape the lens very solidly so that it doesn't slip).
What you're actually saying is that it's more difficult to focus with the Mamiya / P45, which indeed it is. Why would you shoot anything but manual focus anyway? If you needed fast, and arguably better af, you should have hired a Hassie; again you seem to show a complete lack of experience and understanding about the strengths and weaknesses of MF systems.
Of course if you have a good dealer you should work with them to
discover if this is a problem with the set up you are buying and if
so, to resolve this problem if you are purchasing or leasing your
camera.
I've NEVER had any problems with this with any of the bodies I have used, although I may have been lucky... mmm.
The camera has a lot of vibration from the mirror coming up so even
at relatively short shutter speeds like 1/250 and 1/400th it is
prudent to use a standard cable release to first lock the mirror up
and use the electronic cable release a couple of seconds later to
make the exposure. This is probably not necessary in most studio
shooting situations.
I think you'll find it probably is a good idea in the studio as well.
And as with any camera system, not all lenses are equal. The rental
agency specifically singled out the 80mm f/2.8D lens as being
extremely good.

Medium format digital cameras are simply not as versatile as 35mm SLR
based DSLRs. They do not handle as fast, and they do not have the
lens range. The body we used burned through AA batteries. However the
back, which has it's own battery, didn't.

These are the advantages I see of certain 35mm based DSLRs over a
medium format system:

Even compared to a Canon EOS-1Ds MArk III and Nikon D3X these systems
are not cheap.

There is alot to be said for integratign the digital imaging sections
of the camera with the rest of the camera body, especially if it
(like the nikon D3X, D3, D700 and D300, and Cannon EOS-1D Mark 3, 5D
Mark 2, 1Ds Mark 3 bodies) has an autofocus fine tune adjust feature.
..and what do you use for view cameras etc. You clearly have little idea of the numbers of back being sold. It would be suicide to absolutely integrate the backs into the body, when people are used to be able to move them from their fixed lens cam, to field camera, or to the studio camera.
With a medium format back the sensitivity (ISO) range is not as
large - -in fact you really want to keep it in the ISO 50-200 range,
preferably at IS0 100.

Your workable exposure range doesn't extend much past 2 seconds
before the noise to signal ratio becomes an image quality factor.
UTTER BS: Phase backs, with the exception of the P40+ and P65+ are rated for 1 hour without noise. This idea of 2 seconds and then there is noise is utterly false.
Finally not all photos need this high of quality, in fact I suspect
that even for high end commercial, architectural, product, and
magazine photographers very few projects actually require it.
Interesting thought. Had you spent 5 second more to consider headroom and repurposing you may be surprised how many projects would benefit from it, if not need it.

In summary, you make some useful points, and comparisons with 35mm dSLR's, but you clearly have very little experience with MF, especially when you can't discriminate between an SLR and a view camera.

I think Ferrari's are only slightly better than a Skoda, because the speed limit is 60 round here.

--
Jon Stewart
 
Hi pcunite,

I actually have this gear, so I'm speaking from experience, and - yes - it's just MY opinion :-) .

Didn't mean to be harsh though, just straight and to the point.

If I still had a chance to edit, I would have made less of the view camera thing. So, an apology for that part, Ellis.
--
Jon Stewart
 
Ellis mentioned the need for ultra large prints:

If the subject isn't moving, you'd be better getting the P45+, and a view camera with RSC and rise / fall on the rear standard (I have a Silvestri Bicam atm). With any decent image circle, you should be able to perfectly stitch (shift, rise and fall on back standard only; keep the lens stationary) and get about 100Mpixels ie about 2.5 frames.

Some of this WILL be headroom, as a 100+ degree vertical field of view doesn't always look perfectly natural!

Cheers
--
Jon Stewart
 
I agree about using a "pancake" or view camera where the lens is stationary and the back moves (vertical and horizontal shift) for modt large prints.

But for this particular project hower the best approach for the photographs we were making was to stitch. This solution was not reached casually but only decided on after careful consideration of what the final print had to achieve to be successful for this client's primary use, scouting the location, and working out the logistics of camera placement, rigging and operation.
 
Even if you decide not to stitch, movements can be very handy in many shots.

BTW, I never implied anything about how much care, attention or consideration you were giving the project! I have no doubt it was properly considered, but still think the hire shop may have 'misadvised' on appropriate equipment. You know better than me!

Best
--
Jon Stewart
 
-There was no typo. For this project was TO stitch and to rotate the camera lens around the nodal point entrance pupil of the lens.
 
The best approach was to stitch and to raotate the camera and lens combinatio naround the nodal point of the lens. I wasn't just goign on the rental aganct advice. other solutions were tested and extensive tests were made. If a P65+ had been available that is the back we would have used -- more is sometimes more - and shooting three rows (one with camera level, one at -15 degrees and the third at -30 degrees the P45+ gave us the resolution we needed. I also heavily over lapped horizontally shooting with the camera being rotated horizontally 7.5 degrees between frames on each row. The nature of the structure we shot from, required shooting two panoramas from two very distinct points this way. The first panoramic composite was created from 63 frames ( 21 frames per row x 3 rows) and the second was made from 99 frames ( 33 frames per row x 3).
 
Very interesting, Ellis.

The mind boggles at what you would want such HUGE filesize for, but that's between you and your client! The 100Mpixels I gain from stitching, results in about 600Mb 16bit tiff. The upper side of how big that can go has never been explored by clients yet. (afaik)

I still wonder whether the final would have been better using the method you did (with regards to perspective and edge definition etc), or a very nice Schneider or Rodenstock on a view camera. I'm (personally) slightly skeptical (unlike apparently an awful lot of other people) about using the P65+ on the current generation lenses, so more may or indeed may not be more, when it comes to final output.

It's also interesting that you picked a 80mm rather than something wider. Presumably the 28 (although excellent) would obviate, and in some ways obstruct, the idea of doing lots of stitched shots, and, if I remember right, there isn't anything that good between that and the 80 (apart from a zoom!). With a viewcam, you would have had choice from 23 - 180, to the nearest 10mm.

I'm just curious; did you reject using a viewcam for certain reason, or did the hire place not have something suitable?

Dropped into your site, btw; Some really nice work.

Anyway, sorry for the tone of my original comments, and delighted to see you (and others) trying out MF digital.

Best
--
Jon Stewart
 
Very interesting, Ellis.

The mind boggles at what you would want such HUGE filesize for, but
that's between you and your client! The 100Mpixels I gain from
stitching, results in about 600Mb 16bit tiff. The upper side of how
big that can go has never been explored by clients yet. (afaik)
They needed an 8 foot x 24 foot @ 200dpi print. They wanted Something that in their words "you could walk right up without losing subject detail in the pixels". We over shot or over covered the edges so that we could crop the final view out of the finished composite.
It's also interesting that you picked a 80mm rather than something
wider. Presumably the 28 (although excellent) would obviate, and in
some ways obstruct, the idea of doing lots of stitched shots, and, if
I remember right, there isn't anything that good between that and the
80 (apart from a zoom!). With a viewcam, you would have had choice
from 23 - 180, to the nearest 10mm.
Yes perhaps, but we tested various lenses available in the Phase One system and the 80 D yielded the best results. We also had a 55mm with us as well.

Another photographer had shot the project with a 28mm lens on a medium format digital system and the results were not acceptable to the client -- not enough detail. The photographer I worked with was called in at the last moment to salvage the project if possible.

Believe me, If we could have done it with a wider lens and had fewer frames to work with we would have gone that route!
I'm just curious; did you reject using a viewcam for certain reason,
or did the hire place not have something suitable?
They had suitable view camera type bodies but it was my thought that due to the logisitics of the shoot it would not be as suitable of tool as the PhaseOne body for this specific job, and we didn't need shift capabilities.
Dropped into your site, btw; Some really nice work.
Thank you.
Anyway, sorry for the tone of my original comments, and delighted to
see you (and others) trying out MF digital.
I have worked with various MF digital systems since 2003; Phase One, Hassleblad/Imacon, Contax 645 w/ Kodak Pro Back ( very nice for studio work and location portraits with flash at ISO 100); Sinar, Jenoptik EyeLight, and Leaf. Mostly 22mp. This was my first real world workign experience with a 39mp or higher back but I've shot with those at various dealer demos as well.
Best
--
Jon Stewart
 
I guessed it had to be a client wanting huge size but tiny viewing distance. Your method of execution is undoubtedly the only one which would have worked. It may be of interest to you that (amongst others) Bernard Langulier (apologies to Bernard for spelling) has show a number of great images stitched with rather a large number of images from a D3X (I believe).

If you don't mind me asking, what did you use to swing around the nodal point, and did you find any significant differences with doing that with 35mm dSLR (I assume you've probably done it with 35mm as well, forgive me if I'm wrong in that assumption).

Best regards
--
Jon Stewart
 
About ten days ago a project came up that required extremely high
resolution very large prints. We rented a Phase One body ( this is
what used to be known as the Mamiya 645D),
Where's you get that from. It's still a Mamiya AFDIII.
Phase now owns Mamiya and the body does not say Mamiya on it. it says Phase One.
What you're actually saying is that it's more difficult to focus with
the Mamiya / P45, which indeed it is. Why would you shoot anything
but manual focus anyway? If you needed fast, and arguably better af,
you should have hired a Hassie; again you seem to show a complete
lack of experience and understanding about the strengths and
weaknesses of MF systems.
So I suppose your HAsselblad H3D and back came in perfect alignment ? I know of others who own the h3D who had similar problems. ALL pro gear needs to be checked and if necessary adjusted for optimum performance. Cinematographers certainly know and do this.
I've NEVER had any problems with this with any of the bodies I have
used, although I may have been lucky... mmm.
Yes you certainly might have been. On the other hand how many have you owned or used?
The camera has a lot of vibration from the mirror coming up so even
at relatively short shutter speeds like 1/250 and 1/400th it is
prudent to use a standard cable release to first lock the mirror up
and use the electronic cable release a couple of seconds later to
make the exposure. This is probably not necessary in most studio
shooting situations.
I think you'll find it probably is a good idea in the studio as well.
I agree, but isn't very practical if you were shooting fashion models and using electronic flash.
And as with any camera system, not all lenses are equal. The rental
agency specifically singled out the 80mm f/2.8D lens as being
extremely good.

Medium format digital cameras are simply not as versatile as 35mm SLR
based DSLRs. They do not handle as fast, and they do not have the
lens range. The body we used burned through AA batteries. However the
back, which has it's own battery, didn't.

These are the advantages I see of certain 35mm based DSLRs over a
medium format system:

Even compared to a Canon EOS-1Ds MArk III and Nikon D3X these systems
are not cheap.

There is alot to be said for integratign the digital imaging sections
of the camera with the rest of the camera body, especially if it
(like the nikon D3X, D3, D700 and D300, and Cannon EOS-1D Mark 3, 5D
Mark 2, 1Ds Mark 3 bodies) has an autofocus fine tune adjust feature.
..and what do you use for view cameras etc. You clearly have little
idea of the numbers of back being sold. It would be suicide to
absolutely integrate the backs into the body, when people are used to
be able to move them from their fixed lens cam, to field camera, or
to the studio camera.
I have a lot more knowledge of the number of backs sold and leased and the size of the market than I suspect that you do unless you either: work for one of the manufacturers, one of their distributors, or like me, are also a journalist who covers the field.
With a medium format back the sensitivity (ISO) range is not as
large - -in fact you really want to keep it in the ISO 50-200 range,
preferably at IS0 100.

Your workable exposure range doesn't extend much past 2 seconds
before the noise to signal ratio becomes an image quality factor.
UTTER BS: Phase backs, with the exception of the P40+ and P65+ are
rated for 1 hour without noise. This idea of 2 seconds and then there
is noise is utterly false.
I've got the photos to prove the noise levels at multiple second exposures. Noise starts to become appaarant at a 100% view with a 2.5 second exposure and starts becomign an objectionable issue at 5 seconds and longer with the P45+. That is before any noise reduction processing is invoked either in the raw processing or as a post processign step in Photoshop.
Finally not all photos need this high of quality, in fact I suspect
that even for high end commercial, architectural, product, and
magazine photographers very few projects actually require it.
Interesting thought. Had you spent 5 second more to consider headroom
and repurposing you may be surprised how many projects would benefit
from it, if not need it.
The price difference between approximately a D3X or Canon EOS 1Ds MArk3, and Canon 5D Mark 2 and a Phase One or Hasselblad 39mp systems should buy an awful lot of headroom. If you had actually read what I said instead of being so eager to attack me you would have noticed that I said that "very few projects actually require that much increase in headroom. I do have projects that need it but most professional work simply doesn't. if you are making big prints to sell in galleries or to be printed with maximum detail at banner size in retail situations then you will need it. Biut again if you surveyed most professionals you'd find this isn't the case
In summary, you make some useful points, and comparisons with 35mm
dSLR's, but you clearly have very little experience with MF,
especially when you can't discriminate between an SLR and a view
camera.
I've used view cameras (Sinar -- (P, P2 and C), Arca-Swiss, Linhof, Canham, Cambo and Horseman) from 4x5 to 8x10 since 1981 for architectural and corporate and advertising clients , so I think I do think I know the difference between an SLR and a view camera.
 
"I've got the photos to prove the noise levels at multiple second exposures. Noise starts to become appaarant at a 100% view with a 2.5 second exposure and starts becomign an objectionable issue at 5 seconds and longer with the P45+. That is before any noise reduction processing is invoked either in the raw processing or as a post processign step in Photoshop."

I am sure you must be doing something to make noise, as i have a P25+ and have done many 1 hour shots that look amazing. yes you can see some speckles after an hour, but they dont show in prints when i have got them done.

Is your process recipe at fault?

If it really is how you say it is then raise a support question at P1 and I am sure they will sort it out for you.

Mike

--
http://www.thephotographer.me.uk
 
Ellis Vener wrote:
Phase now owns Mamiya and the body does not say Mamiya on it. it says
Phase One.
Last I heard they had an 'interest' but did not own. First time I've heard that.
So I suppose your HAsselblad H3D and back came in perfect alignment ?
I know of others who own the h3D who had similar problems. ALL pro
gear needs to be checked and if necessary adjusted for optimum
performance. Cinematographers certainly know and do this.
I don't have a Hassie; I have an AFD / P45. Completely agree about thoroughly checking and rechecking all of this equipment.
Yes you certainly might have been. On the other hand how many have
you owned or used?
Well, I've owned all my own equipment, so not that many, compared with someone who hires stuff, which may have had a wide range of 'treatment in the field'. :-)
I think you'll find it probably is a good idea in the studio as well.
I agree, but isn't very practical if you were shooting fashion models
and using electronic flash.
Agree, completely unpractical for that, but still life etc would be fine.
..and what do you use for view cameras etc. You clearly have little
idea of the numbers of back being sold. It would be suicide to
absolutely integrate the backs into the body, when people are used to
be able to move them from their fixed lens cam, to field camera, or
to the studio camera.
I have a lot more knowledge of the number of backs sold and leased
and the size of the market than I suspect that you do unless you
either: work for one of the manufacturers, one of their
distributors, or like me, are also a journalist who covers the field.
I read a lot of what the manufacturers reps / dealers say, and other journalists.
With a medium format back the sensitivity (ISO) range is not as
large - -in fact you really want to keep it in the ISO 50-200 range,
preferably at IS0 100.

Your workable exposure range doesn't extend much past 2 seconds
before the noise to signal ratio becomes an image quality factor.
UTTER BS: Phase backs, with the exception of the P40+ and P65+ are
rated for 1 hour without noise. This idea of 2 seconds and then there
is noise is utterly false.
I've got the photos to prove the noise levels at multiple second
exposures. Noise starts to become appaarant at a 100% view with a
2.5 second exposure and starts becomign an objectionable issue at 5
seconds and longer with the P45+. That is before any noise reduction
processing is invoked either in the raw processing or as a post
processign step in Photoshop.
Wouldn't use Photoshop; better using Capture One, which was designed for these backs. Do you consider them to have noise before or after processing?
Finally not all photos need this high of quality, in fact I suspect
that even for high end commercial, architectural, product, and
magazine photographers very few projects actually require it.
Interesting thought. Had you spent 5 second more to consider headroom
and repurposing you may be surprised how many projects would benefit
from it, if not need it.
The price difference between approximately a D3X or Canon EOS 1Ds
MArk3, and Canon 5D Mark 2 and a Phase One or Hasselblad 39mp systems
should buy an awful lot of headroom. If you had actually read what I
said instead of being so eager to attack me...
Apologised for the tone already.
... you would have noticed
that I said that "very few projects actually require that much
increase in headroom. I do have projects that need it but most
professional work simply doesn't. if you are making big prints to
sell in galleries or to be printed with maximum detail at banner size
in retail situations then you will need it. Biut again if you
surveyed most professionals you'd find this isn't the case
I agree with you, but I wasn't suggesting what most professionals need [to satisfy themselves \ clients], but rather, whether the use of this equipment would benefit the selling and re-selling of the photographs, if I can put it like that.
In summary, you make some useful points, and comparisons with 35mm
dSLR's, but you clearly have very little experience with MF,
especially when you can't discriminate between an SLR and a view
camera.
I've used view cameras (Sinar -- (P, P2 and C), Arca-Swiss, Linhof,
Canham, Cambo and Horseman) from 4x5 to 8x10 since 1981 for
architectural and corporate and advertising clients , so I think I do
think I know the difference between an SLR and a view camera.
--
Sorry, but you came across as someone who didn't. I clearly mis-inferred (!) and was wrong on that score! Again, an unreserved apology for that point.

Best Regards
--
Jon Stewart
 
Jon , My apologies for tone as well .I didn't recognize it was you I was responding to before I hit the send button.
 
"I've got the photos to prove the noise levels at multiple second
exposures. Noise starts to become appaarant at a 100% view with a 2.5
second exposure and starts becomign an objectionable issue at 5
seconds and longer with the P45+. That is before any noise reduction
processing is invoked either in the raw processing or as a post
processign step in Photoshop."

I am sure you must be doing something to make noise, as i have a P25+
and have done many 1 hour shots that look amazing. yes you can see
some speckles after an hour, but they dont show in prints when i have
got them done.

Is your process recipe at fault?
Mike,

It could be. I was not applying any noise reduction strategy either in Capture One (beyond its defaults) or in post processing in Photoshop, using either Adobe's noise reduction tools or third party plug-ins.
 
Jon , My apologies for tone as well .I didn't recognize it was you I
was responding to before I hit the send button.
Please don't give it a second thought. Must have a look at that Pano head you mentioned. Just on the offchance I might get asked to do something with 'crazy' resolution requirements!

BTW, had a guy arrive to sell me aerial photography today, and following a long and friendly chat, he may be hiring me to do some. Sometimes, out of the blue, comes something interesting and different!

Best
--
Jon Stewart
 
Now I won't have this gear envy for the most pixels. It seems you have to put plenty of time and effort to get the most out of them. I'll just stick to wanting a D3x in a D700 body for now. See you just saved me a ton of money. :)
--
http://www.pbase.com/stilllearning/inbox
 

Keyboard shortcuts

Back
Top