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New rumor: Panny m4/3 with EVF

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Friedel

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Have a look here:

http://43rumors.com/ft2-first-panasonic-compact-m43-rumor/

"This rumor comes from a new source. He told us Panasonic is accelerating the development of a compact m4/3 model….expect to see the camera in september/october.
  • The camera should have an Olympus E-P1 size
  • New 12Megapixel sensor
  • There is surely a black version
  • 720 60p/50p video
  • External EVF
  • No BodyIs planned now :(
  • And there will not be any partnership with Leica (unlike the Lx3-DLUX4 partnership).
We will see if this source will become one of our trusted one…"

Karl
 
If this were so, it would suit me better--I need/want that EVF, but I don't care too much if its Oly or Panny. I don't want too small a cam though--pocketable would be nice but not an 'itsy' camera with interchangeable lens, though I expect I would put a small prime on this and that would be it--maybe a 17 or 20. I'll wait until Fall to see what both offer in bodies--but I'm still really anxious for a good small prime--reasonably fast. The purported 17 f/2.8 probably would be sufficient in that FL.

Diane
-----------------------
Diane B
http://www.pbase.com/picnic
G1 gallery http://www.pbase.com/picnic/temp_g1
 
I don't want the EVF to be external:

1) If it goes into the hot shoe it's not as ergonomic as in the top left (nose-screen/nose-buttons/cheek-right-hand conflicts)

2) It's something that will catch on the pocket or will have to be removed each time the camera is pocketed, and the EVF would have to be carried separately without getting dusty, damaged or lost.

3) It will probably add considerable cost because that's expected from a system camera accessory and because of the lower production.

This is much better:



Just my two oere
Erik from Sweden
 
Friedel said:
Have a look here:

http://43rumors.com/ft2-first-panasonic-compact-m43-rumor/

"This rumor comes from a new source. He told us Panasonic is
accelerating the development of a compact m4/3 model….expect to see
the camera in september/october.
  • The camera should have an Olympus E-P1 size
  • New 12Megapixel sensor
  • There is surely a black version
  • 720 60p/50p video
  • External EVF
  • No BodyIs planned now :(
  • And there will not be any partnership with Leica (unlike the
Lx3-DLUX4 partnership).

We will see if this source will become one of our trusted one…"

Karl
--
Click to expand...
--If the above rumor proves to be true then I think one can post a picture of the

"fake rendering" from last fall and you will have a good idea what this new m4/3 will look like? The only item left out above is popup flash likely on right front side and the question of whether or not a swivel screen would be used for video potential?

The possible reasons why Pany would make such a move? First they need a less expensive model to produce and making the EVF optional and possibly using fixed ODEL screen instead would give them something potentially below the G1 in price. Don't forget that Oly plans to sell their m4/3 at rumored $990 so Pany could see this as an opportunity to make some profit. Remember Pany will plan to launch the 20/1.7 lens with this camera and that will really sell this camera. I think you can also bet on a black metal body.

So Oly E-P1 will emphasise miniture slower lenses, possible IBIS (?) opt ext OVF and flash will Pany new m4/3 will have faster prime, in camera flash, and opt ext EVF. If you add swivel screen to the above equation and possible black all metal body the equation will swing in Pany's favor.

Quite possible Pany could produce one lower cost model with plastic body and kit lens and fixed LCD and another higher end one with metal body and 20/1.7 lens & swivel LCD?

Interesting the rumor said Pany not developing in body IS just now? This suggests the likelyhood that they will go to IBIS for their next rangefinder style model which would be thicker body for both EVF and IBIS?

I think we are likely to see a similar "leaking" of specifications and pictures to wet our appetities just as we have with Oly model. Could have predicted the first one would be on eve of Olys unveiling?

I have made a number of possible sketches of my own to conjure up the various possibilities. I think that for LX3 size model going with swivel screen and opt EVF to keep size down, not a bad combination as emphasis on video use and can use in lighting conditions which are very difficult with fixed LCD. Pany no doubt taking some time to perfect a slightly smaller EVF which for attachment to hot shoe in 1st model and then use inbody on second model more like G10 in size but not as high and little wider the true mini L1.

Just my two bits
safaridon
 
Its simply a contradicting fact that one can made a compact body but yet had all the big LCD, nice handy control, and so on ... Fujifilm is the first one to do it ( way way back ) and Ricoh GX series prove the concept of external viewfinder perfectly alright. In fact that concept is no different that old day RF with an external optical Viewfinder.

without the EVF, and possibly ditching the flash also, A Micro 4/3 body might even be able to be made just marginally larger than that of the LX series.

The one series surely not likely to come around any more is the ultra zoom FZ series. the G1/GH1 with an appropriate lens can do the job and do it far better
--
  • Franka -
 
Franka T.L. said:
The one series surely not likely to come around any more is the ultra
zoom FZ series. the G1/GH1 with an appropriate lens can do the job
and do it far better
Click to expand...
Do you mean that the µ4/3 cameras will signal the end of the FZ series? I very much doubt it. The FZ28 gives a zoom range that's considerably greater than the G-series with both kit lenses (wider at the wide end, and longer at the tele end), in a package that's smaller than the G1 with the regular kit zoom attached, for less than half the price.

If you mean the higher-end FZ cameras (FZ50 etc.) then you're right, as Panasonic has admitted they have no successor planned at this time.
--
-Jay

http://flickr.com/photos/48504267@N00/
 
I don't like anything that is accelerated or rushed into production. They should take their time and get it right. They already have enough problems getting enough of their current cameras into people's hands.
 
I agree with all three points Erik made about the external viewfinder.

An external viewfinder means it may have to go on and off, having to disconnect and carry it separate sometimes. And if this does not have an internal flash like the E-P1, then that means swapping viewfinder for flash, pretty much downgrading portability, without the use of a bag, or pockets full of accessories. Leave the hotshoe free for a flash if needed.

I don't see why an articulating LCD is necessary on this camera. They make the body thicker. And if your primary purpose is video, buy a GH-1. Why would Panasonic put out a camera with the same specs and features as the G(H)-1 so soon after releasing it? Even with the E-P1 coming out, Panasonic usually doesn't bring out their higher end products so soon after each other. The LX series is 2-3 years between models. The LC1-L1-L10 was also a similar time frame.

I think the goal should be a body slightly larger than the LX-3, with internal EVF as erik's mockup recommends, slightly smaller non-articulating LCD, small internal flash.

Panasonic shouldn't muddy the product lines. LX should be for people who want the smallest body, no internal VF, non-changeable but high IQ lens. G should be for entry-level/mini DSLR people who want the most cutting edge tech features, like HD video with articulating LCD and a larger more SLR type body.

This new camera, should be the successor to the LC1/Digilux2. Except smaller bodied because of m4/3, with interchangeable lenses. I hope the rumor is wrong, I think it would be nice to see a Leica style version of it, since I really like the way my Digilux2 looks, plus it guarantees there will be at least a Leica kit lens. The LC1/Digilux2 for people who missed it, had an internal EVF (that sucked because it was 2004 resolution and technology). An internal two stage "cobra head" flash, that bounced! An amazing Leica F2 Summicron lens, with a large for the day, compact sensor, that produced amazing pictures. Look up what owners say of this camera on the dpreview forums, or some of the Leica forums and you'll understand why this new Panasonic m4/3 should be the LC2/Digilux4. This will keep the product offering distinct and robust, while still giving us another winner from Panasonic.
 
External EVF??

What a kludge that would be: probably an "Option" that costs as much as most camears if the LX3 optical viewfinder is considered.

An internal [possibly pop-up or pop-out] EVF is certainly possible, Ehrik is exactly right:
Ehrik said:
I don't want the EVF to be external:

1) If it goes into the hot shoe it's not as ergonomic as in the top
left (nose-screen/nose-buttons/cheek-right-hand conflicts)

2) It's something that will catch on the pocket or will have to be
removed each time the camera is pocketed, and the EVF would have to
be carried separately without getting dusty, damaged or lost.

3) It will probably add considerable cost because that's expected
from a system camera accessory and because of the lower production.

This is much better:



Just my two oere
Erik from Sweden
Click to expand...
And the same goes for interchangable lenses, IMHO.

We have finally, after about 75 years gotten rid of those anachronisms.

I'm waiting in line with credit card in hand for an EVF-TZ. An EVF 4/3 with external EVF & lenses? - keep it. Not interested.

YMMV, of course.

-Erik
--
DP Review Supporter.



'He who hesitates is not only lost - he's miles from the next Exit.'
http://www.flickr.com/ohlsonmh/
 
Ehrik said:
I don't want the EVF to be external:

1) If it goes into the hot shoe it's not as ergonomic as in the top
left (nose-screen/nose-buttons/cheek-right-hand conflicts)

2) It's something that will catch on the pocket or will have to be
removed each time the camera is pocketed, and the EVF would have to
be carried separately without getting dusty, damaged or lost.

3) It will probably add considerable cost because that's expected
from a system camera accessory and because of the lower production.

This is much better:

Click to expand...
--I think it only natural that Pany would want to counter with E-P1 size or slightly larger than LX3 size. Your concept with EVF in left corner would definitely work. Pany probably thought the size of EVF would have to be too small or not enough space for high def EVF and would rather mount EVF in left corner above the LCD screen where they can spread it out in a rangefinder style ala L1 in a later model to come which would be thicker body to accomodate EVF module.

I think their choice has more to do with not wanting to draw too many buyers away for GH1 features at this time hence the EVF is optional. This also enables them to target a lower end market as well as higher niche which don't mind add on OVF or EVF when needed. There is so much rationale why EVF as you say best in the camera, but maybe Oly intends to offset this by providing swivel screen instead?

Just my two bits
safaridon
 
Jay Gloab said:
Franka T.L. said:
The one series surely not likely to come around any more is the ultra
zoom FZ series. the G1/GH1 with an appropriate lens can do the job
and do it far better
Click to expand...
Do you mean that the µ4/3 cameras will signal the end of the FZ
series? I very much doubt it. The FZ28 gives a zoom range that's
considerably greater than the G-series with both kit lenses (wider at
the wide end, and longer at the tele end), in a package that's
smaller than the G1 with the regular kit zoom attached, for less than
half the price.

If you mean the higher-end FZ cameras (FZ50 etc.) then you're right,
as Panasonic has admitted they have no successor planned at this time.
--
Click to expand...
--I agree that u4/3 in no way will obsolete the FZ series with much smaller sensor as that is only size which can do wide wa to long tele in one compact lens.

As to future FZ28 replacement do out this late summer I project one of two possibilities:

1. Put the FZ28 excellent lens and comera components into the G1 body with has a 3" swivel screen and use a moderate resolution large EVF.

2. Design the FZ28 replacement into a rangefinder style small body with 2.7" swivel screen - same body and EVF as Pany will use in their second mini 4/3rds model by year end?

3. Another possibility for a very compact FZ replacement would be for Pany to design a TZ with manual controls, raw, and 2.7" rear swivel screen. This would cover the wa end better down to 25mm but be quite a bit shorter on the tele end at 300mm vrs 480mm. The TZ can reach TZ land range with EZoom but only at 5 mp resolution but enough for most. The prinicipal advantage as this lens apparently working very well with HD video as well as extremely compact telescoping into camera body.

Just my two bits
safaridon
 
dko3tgk said:
I agree with all three points Erik made about the external viewfinder.

An external viewfinder means it may have to go on and off, having to
disconnect and carry it separate sometimes.
Click to expand...
I'm prone to lose stuff that size. Or forget to take it out of the pocket when I wash the jacket...
dko3tgk said:
And if this does not
have an internal flash like the E-P1, then that means swapping
viewfinder for flash, pretty much downgrading portability, without
the use of a bag, or pockets full of accessories. Leave the hotshoe
free for a flash if needed.
Click to expand...
I suppose it would be technically possible to add a hot-shoe on top of the EVF, with contacts connected to the ones on the bottom. Still, many other problems with it.
dko3tgk said:
I don't see why an articulating LCD is necessary on this camera.
They make the body thicker.
Click to expand...
Yes, at least ~ 5mm (0.2"). Instead, they could have a video port so you could attach a screen to the camera. It would be more flexible in that you could choose the size of the screen and also be able to place it away from the camera.

I realise that carries similar problems as an external EVF, but I'm thinking it would be more for special occasions. A built in T&S of course has the advantage of always being there.
dko3tgk said:
I think the goal should be a body slightly larger than the LX-3, with
internal EVF as erik's mockup recommends, slightly smaller
non-articulating LCD, small internal flash.
Click to expand...
Yes, a slightly smaller LCD would be fine with me too. I used a 3" just to show how wide it would make the camera. 2.7" would probably be optimal. Then the body would be just a few percent (instead of 10%) wider than the LX3 and there would be room for a bigger EVF. Of course it would be deeper due to the flange distance.

I don't know how much the market would mind 2.7" vs. 3".

A 16:9 LCD with the EVF placed above the LCD would also seem workable.
dko3tgk said:
This new camera, should be the successor to the LC1/Digilux2. ...
Click to expand...
Never experienced an LC1 in the flesh but I've seen great photographs done with it and heard lots of praise for it. Building further on that concept can't be a bad idea.

Just my two oere
Erik from Sweden
 
Ehrik said:
it would make the camera. 2.7" would probably
be optimal. Then the body would be just a few percent (instead of
10%) wider than the LX3 and there would be room for a bigger EVF. Of
course it would be deeper due to the flange distance.

I don't know how much the market would mind 2.7" vs. 3".

A 16:9 LCD with the EVF placed above the LCD would also seem workable.
Click to expand...
--I think that Pany has already done this with the 16:9 swivel screen in the G1 and GH1 only in 3" size I think that 2.7" screen based on 3:2 format with total width to display 16:9 is what we will see in Panys new m4/3 offerings. EVF sized for 3/2 format but LCD sized for 16:9. The extra width of screen matching all new HDTV screen size will more than offset the reduction in height which results in a considerably lower smaller camera format. This will put Pany designs a couple years ahead of other DSLRs recent design shapes requiring a taller camera body.

safaridon
 
Erik Ohlson said:
External EVF??

What a kludge that would be: probably an "Option" that costs as much
as most camears if the LX3 optical viewfinder is considered.
Click to expand...
I guess that's what's tempting Panasonic: a high margin accessory.
Erik Ohlson said:
An internal [possibly pop-up or pop-out] EVF is certainly possible,
Click to expand...
With a flash you want it to come farther from the lens to reduce red-eye and shadowing from the lens/hood, but I'm not quite sure what the benefit would be of having an EVF pop up or out?
Erik Ohlson said:
And the same goes for interchangable lenses, IMHO.

We have finally, after about 75 years gotten rid of those anachronisms.
Click to expand...
8-)
Erik Ohlson said:
I'm waiting in line with credit card in hand for an EVF-TZ.
Click to expand...
Such a camera would interest me too, Erik. And an EVF-LX3.
Erik Ohlson said:
An EVF 4/3 with external EVF & lenses? - keep it. Not interested.

YMMV, of course.
Click to expand...
What I'm visualising is

1) something wider than the 24mm of the LX3.

2) more low-light hand-holding capabilities on more normal focal lengths (this assumes some stabilisation too, best done in body).
3) better subject isolation from normal to portrait tele lengths.
4) generally a bit more DR.

I think I could accept swapping some lenses to get this.

Preferably, the small lenses should come with some padded, dust-sealed, tailor-made snugly-fitting (plastic?) containers.

Just my two oere
Erik from Sweden
 
Ehrik said:
Erik Ohlson said:
External EVF??

What a kludge that would be: probably an "Option" that costs as much
as most camears if the LX3 optical viewfinder is considered.
Click to expand...
I guess that's what's tempting Panasonic: a high margin accessory.
Ehrik said:
An internal [possibly pop-up or pop-out] EVF is certainly possible,
Click to expand...
With a flash you want it to come farther from the lens to reduce
red-eye and shadowing from the lens/hood, but I'm not quite sure what
the benefit would be of having an EVF pop up or out?
Click to expand...
Only if needed to gain back-focus room for the EVF viewing lens - that would be the only benefit Otherwise it's just something else to go wrong.
Ehrik said:
Ehrik said:
And the same goes for interchangable lenses, IMHO.

We have finally, after about 75 years gotten rid of those anachronisms.
Click to expand...
8-)
Ehrik said:
I'm waiting in line with credit card in hand for an EVF-TZ.
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
I like the idea of both an EVF TZ and an EVF LX. Fills two niches & makes the EVF development or refinement more economical. Although I'd be satisfied with the FZ5 EVF, if necessary.

Thanks for this great mockup - it got this thread really going.

-Erik
--
DP Review Supporter.



'He who hesitates is not only lost - he's miles from the next Exit.'
http://www.flickr.com/ohlsonmh/
 
I understand that style of camera is very much a personal taste thing. For those that will disagree with my point of view, no problem here.

I have been advocating an external EVF starting several years ago in the Fuji SLR forum, I think. For the sake of argument:
  • Imagine a seven inch diagonal OLED or other high resolution screen. Around the edges of the screen would be arranged your camera controls including shutter release etc. (A smaller sized unit that could clip to the back of the camera could also be available or come as standard issue.)
  • This could also be a touch screen for quickly setting the location for the magnification box and triggering the magnification.
  • A new model camera body is announced, you just plug this EVF and control module into the new sensor body.
This would be a proprietary but standard interface.

Now, I understand that this only suits certain odd individuals such as myself. The all-in-one compact camera is popular for a reason. :)

I just like the thought of having a view-camera style large preview screen that is separate from the sensor head. I am surprised that the medium format folks have not jumped on this yet.....
--
Best regards,
Jonathan Kardell
'You are not what you think, you are that which allows thought to manifest.'
 
I agree that an external screen is a good idea and will add new possibilities to a camera. I have suggested it myself on occasion (as a passive screen, didn't think of touch control).

It's a little confusing calling it EVF though (even though it technically is an electronic viewfinder), since this review site, and thus most forum readers, equate EVF with eye-level electronic viewfinder.

So when I and others ask for an EVF, we are thinking of the eye-level version.

Such an EVF could give comparable FOV as the 7" OLED you are suggesting. All due to the magnification optics in the VF. And, being built-in, it would be much more portable, light-shielded and protected from damage. Probably also cheaper to make. It would not work for remote or odd-angle tasks, of course. Having both would be ideal.

Just my two oere
Erik from Sweden
 
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