What "we" want vs. what sells

Whenever I read the many, many posts here with "wish lists" in them I wish that I could remind everyone who writes them that unfortunately "we" are not the folks who buy most of the cameras that Olympus, Nikon, Canon, etc., sell to people.

By "we" I mean people who not only frequent forums like this one, but who also are at least photography enthusiasts and possibly even people who earn at least part of their living from photography.

The problem then for us is that camera companies, to survive, must figure out a way to sell lots of their products. Unfortunately for us, though, the masses who go out to buy cameras at the big box stores, or who hit the buy button at Amazon are not looking for the same things that "we" are looking for.

So, every time I see someone whining about the lack of "fast primes," I wince. Why do you think Olympus would spend the money to make a line of f1.4 primes? Do you realize how big and heavy and expensive those lenses would be, and, more important, how few people would buy them?

Nikon saw this when they announced their 35mm f1.8 DX lens. They explained that the vast majority of their sales are for cameras such as the D40- not the D700 or D3- so they need to make lenses that people will buy.

Sure, lots of us might want a 43mm f1.8 portrait lens, but the problem is that we make up a small percentage of buyers of products from a company that has a small market share to begin with.

Most people never buy any lenses after they get the kit lenses. Now, if Olympus were to make a 25mm f2 "normal" lens, and sell it for $199 or something, maybe they could sell quite a few of those.

Should "we" stop wishing for things? Of course not. But we also need to remember that we are far, far from the majority of folks who buy cameras.

Olympus seems to do a pretty good job of understanding what folks want. Oly innovations like live view and dust reduction are now expected on all DSLR's. Atticulated LCD? Oly has it now (620, E-30, E-3).
I think the one thing lacking is a "one lens solution".

Canon and Nikon sell a ton of 18-200's. The only solution for a 4/3 user is the Penny/Leica 14-150, and we all know how much that costs. The aperture ring and OIS are unnecessary for Oly users as well.

As good as the two lens kits are, not everyone wants to lug around two lenses all the time.

Something lke a 14-140, f3.5-5.6 need not be expensive and would likely be very good, considering the great quality and reputation of Olympus glass.
Something that "we" want (at least I do) and something that will sell as well.
What a great kit. A 620 and such a lens.
--
Bill D.
http://billd.smugmug.com/

mmditter said:

So, every time I see someone whining about the lack of "fast primes,"
I wince. Why do you think Olympus would spend the money to make a
line of f1.4 primes? Do you realize how big and heavy and expensive
those lenses would be, and, more important, how few people would buy
them?

Click to expand...

Your argument makes a lot of sense and I thought about this very much over the last 5 years. but if the Olympus product development team is just about " products for the mass market" then how do you explain the presence in the line of a 5K$ 300 mm or the 2/150 or the 90-250mmm

while I agree with you that most people would stay with the kit lenses for the basic oly products , i don't think this is the case for the E30 and E3 owners so Oly wants at least to sell more lenses for those clients

mmditter said:

Sure, lots of us might want a 43mm f1.8 portrait lens, but the
problem is that we make up a small percentage of buyers of products
from a company that has a small market share to begin with.

Click to expand...

I think they will sell way more of this than the lenses above mentioned

the fact that every other line ( not just the 2 major ones) has that kind of offering should make oly think hard
Harold

mmditter said:

Most people never buy any lenses after they get the kit lenses. Now,
if Olympus were to make a 25mm f2 "normal" lens, and sell it for $199
or something, maybe they could sell quite a few of those.

Click to expand...

I've discussed cameras with a number of folks over the years. My next door neighbor bought an Oly 500 2-lens kit. When I mention to her that a "fast" lens like the PL 25mm f/1.4 could improve the quality of her indoor candid photography, her response was typical: "But it's not a zoom."

The $900 price, f/1.4 DOF, and low light possibilities totally escaped her. "But it's not a zoom" seems to be the feeling of a VAST majority of DSLR buyers. I don't think a $199 f/2 standard prime would sell bunches. "It's not a zoom." OTOH, if it only costs Oly $35 to produce and market, why not?

--
Cheers,

Jim Pilcher
Colorado, USA

'It's not what you look at that matters, it's what you see...' -- Henry David Thoreau

billyd said:

Olympus seems to do a pretty good job of understanding what folks
want. Oly innovations like live view and dust reduction are now
expected on all DSLR's. Atticulated LCD? Oly has it now (620, E-30,
E-3).
I think the one thing lacking is a "one lens solution".
Canon and Nikon sell a ton of 18-200's. The only solution for a 4/3
user is the Penny/Leica 14-150, and we all know how much that costs.
The aperture ring and OIS are unnecessary for Oly users as well.
As good as the two lens kits are, not everyone wants to lug around
two lenses all the time.
Something lke a 14-140, f3.5-5.6 need not be expensive and would
likely be very good, considering the great quality and reputation of
Olympus glass.
Something that "we" want (at least I do) and something that will sell
as well.
What a great kit. A 620 and such a lens.
--
Bill D.
http://billd.smugmug.com/

Click to expand...

That's precisely the only thing that I think Olympus is lacking! That's the only thing that's ever make me consider switching to Canon or Nikon, with a standard grade 14-150 I don't even need to carry a camera bag anymore, for the type of photography that I make that's all I need. Please Olympus, give us a combination of the two kit lenses in one! The pana-leica is just out of my range.

I've thought much the same every time that I read a comment that Olympus doesn't have enough primes, or should make such-and-such a prime because it would sell in droves. I own one prime and it rarely makes it out of my bag, except in very narrowly defined circumstances. Most of the time when I would use a F1.4 prime, the F2.0 zoom comes out instead.

For the vast majority of casual shooters a prime that is spectacular is a tough sell against a zoom that is "good enough." Especially so when the prime costs 1.5-2X as much as the zoom. Casual shooters drive the market when it comes to entry level and mid-grade gear. Those tiers are where the money is.

James Pilcher said:

I've discussed cameras with a number of folks over the years. My next
door neighbor bought an Oly 500 2-lens kit. When I mention to her
that a "fast" lens like the PL 25mm f/1.4 could improve the quality
of her indoor candid photography, her response was typical: "But it's
not a zoom."

The $900 price, f/1.4 DOF, and low light possibilities totally
escaped her. "But it's not a zoom" seems to be the feeling of a VAST
majority of DSLR buyers. I don't think a $199 f/2 standard prime
would sell bunches. "It's not a zoom." OTOH, if it only costs Oly $35
to produce and market, why not?

--
Cheers,

Jim Pilcher
Colorado, USA

'It's not what you look at that matters, it's what you see...' --
Henry David Thoreau

Click to expand...

--
D620L -> D540 -> C750UZ -> E-500 -> E-510 -> E-3 + E-30

As a G1 owner, I am very interested in what Panasonic does with their upcoming 14-140. For most of my photographic life I have been forced to carry multiple lense to do the work I wanted. A quality 14-140 would be a one-lens solution for the vast majority of the time. However, I am looking for better image quality than most of what is in the market, and within reason I am willing to pay. After all, it will be replacing at least two lenses so if the quality is there I'd be willing to come up with a few bucks.

--
Gato

Alternative portraits and lifestyle photography
http://www.silvermirage.com
(Possibly NSFW in some offices)

This includes a vast majority of posters here that have wish lists and wants for a manufacturer and when the item comes out it is "too expensive" or "for financial reasons I can't afford or had to sell my gear". I would suggest a less expensive hobby.

Of the several hundred thousand people that bought or are going to buy a camera the wishers and wanters here only account for a small percentage. How can you expect a camera manufacturer to make a lens or body for less than a thousand people?

Although I'm firmly out of step with the world in much of my life, I am lucky enough that my lens wants are pretty mainstream.

Having used primes for virutally all my professional career, I am very happy to be using zooms. Precise framing, flexibility, fewer lens changes (fewer dropped lenses and missed photos), and lowever overal kit price are some of the main reasons.

I don't have much problem with people wishing for exotic lenses, except that I know Olympus is a company with relatively limited development resources and I would much rather see those resources go into more mainstream lenses. Give us really good contrast focus, especially with the mid-range lenses. Develop the heck out of m4/3. Give me a 14-70 f4 portrait zoom. And so on.

Nothing against a 43 f1.4 or a 25 f1.2 if they have the resources, but I won't be buying them. As for the top pro lenses, they filled a public relations need back when 4/3 launched, but I don't see much place for them now and I would be surprised to see Olympus put a lot of resources into the line in the next few years.

--
Gato

Alternative portraits and lifestyle photography
http://www.silvermirage.com
(Possibly NSFW in some offices)

billyd said:

Olympus seems to do a pretty good job of understanding what folks
want. Oly innovations like live view and dust reduction are now
expected on all DSLR's. Atticulated LCD? Oly has it now (620, E-30,
E-3).
I think the one thing lacking is a "one lens solution".
Canon and Nikon sell a ton of 18-200's. The only solution for a 4/3
user is the Penny/Leica 14-150, and we all know how much that costs.
The aperture ring and OIS are unnecessary for Oly users as well.
As good as the two lens kits are, not everyone wants to lug around
two lenses all the time.
Something lke a 14-140, f3.5-5.6 need not be expensive and would
likely be very good, considering the great quality and reputation of
Olympus glass.
Something that "we" want (at least I do) and something that will sell
as well.
What a great kit. A 620 and such a lens.

Click to expand...

I thought they made and sold a Digital Zuiko 18-180 lens, and that it's a standard lens, and priced acordingly............

--

• enjoy your camera equipment -

if oly deemed fit to produce a 2/300 mm and and expensive 600 mm for what they must have known a small audience...

why not produce that 42-43mm and that wide angle for people who are serious with their photography
Harold

billyd said:

.
As good as the two lens kits are, not everyone wants to lug around
two lenses all the time.

Click to expand...

SERIOUSLY ?
the two kit lens are so small , not even 400 grs together
if someone is not ready to "lug that around" he or she should get a compact P&S

H

QCR said:

Of the several hundred thousand people that bought or are going to
buy a camera the wishers and wanters here only account for a small
percentage. How can you expect a camera manufacturer to make a lens
or body for less than a thousand people?

Click to expand...

Come on , a portrait lens will sell way more than that

harold

Harold66 said:

billyd said:

.
As good as the two lens kits are, not everyone wants to lug around
two lenses all the time.

Click to expand...

SERIOUSLY ?
the two kit lens are so small , not even 400 grs together
if someone is not ready to "lug that around" he or she should get a
compact P&S

H

Click to expand...

Perhaps "lug around" is the wrong terminology.

Changing those lenses on the street while travelling is not very convenient though.

--
Bill D.
http://billd.smugmug.com/

photo_owl said:

I thought they made and sold a Digital Zuiko 18-180 lens, and that
it's a standard lens, and priced acordingly............

Click to expand...

Yes, but it's not very wide on the short end.

Olympus seems to aim at offering primes only where they provide clear advantages over zoom lenses that will produce "sufficient" sales. This does not mean targeting solely the "mass market": what counts as sufficient sales depends on the profit margin, so low selling, high-end lenses like the 150/2, 300/3.8 and 90-250/2.8 might be more commercially justified than low selling lower priced lenses like the various wide angle primes that many keep asking for. Also, a few very high end lenses might be justified more for the prestige they add to the system than direct profits.

Beyond the current offerings, a longer macro (100/2?) and fast portrait lens of about 45/1.4 might be the most viable new prime lenses for 4/3.

Harold66 said:

the fact that every other line ( not just the 2 major ones) has that kind of offering should make oly think hard ...

Click to expand...

Every other line has a bunch of old prime lens designs, originally done many years ago for use with 35mm film cameras. It is far easier and cheaper to keep them in production for even very low sales volumes than to design new ones. In fact, many of them might remain available only because they have not sold out the last production run from some years ago.

If we look instead at the efforts made by other major SLR makers to design and introduce new prime lenses, the offerings are limited to the same types that Four Thirds also offers: fast telephotos, macro lenses, normals (Nikon 30/1.8 DX, Canon 50/1.2) and fish-eyes. And for the market leading EF-S format, Canon has not even bothered to design a normal prime or 180º fish-eye.

I do not know of a new non-fish-eye wide angle or portrait prime from any major DSLR maker, though Canon updated its 85/1.2 portrait lens. The Sony 35/1.4 is an update of a previous Minolta design, done by Konica-Minolta but not released until Sony took over.

Those are made to order lenses and not production for inventory.

There are already portrait lenses available.

It's not really 'lug around' as in heavy but it is the the overall carrying convenience factor for me. I used to use an 18-135mm (about 28-200mm eq) kit lens with my Nikon. It was a lot more convenient than taking 2 of my Oly lenses to get to that kind of walk around range. 28-150mm is about the minimum that I find for a good walk around for me.

It is not really the size or weight of the second lens at all. It is the need to change lenses and, even more important to me, also the need to do something with the lens you aren't using at the time.

And most of the time (except in the winter) that means taking a bag with me when I am walking around. Camera around the neck and bag over the shoulder instead of just the camera.

I would buy an Oly (standard grade kit lens - f/3.5-5.6) 14-80mm or 90mm or 100mm immediately if it was available for under $500. And from the posts that I used to see on the Nikon forum about people wanting to upgrade their 3x kit lens, I think it would be a seller.

--
Stu

.

billyd said:

Olympus seems to do a pretty good job of understanding what folks
want. Oly innovations like live view and dust reduction are now
expected on all DSLR's. Atticulated LCD? Oly has it now (620, E-30,
E-3).
I think the one thing lacking is a "one lens solution".
Canon and Nikon sell a ton of 18-200's. The only solution for a 4/3
user is the Penny/Leica 14-150, and we all know how much that costs.

Click to expand...

I know this lens is an insufferable underdog, but this lens is actually pretty good. It was my first lens that I bought with my E-510 and I used it on a trip to Jamaica and I couldn't be happier! The lens is not stellar mind you and its big and heavy and very slow as well, but then so are all other super zooms. The PL 14-150mm is the exception to the rule, which is why it costs so much.

billyd said:

The aperture ring and OIS are unnecessary for Oly users as well.
As good as the two lens kits are, not everyone wants to lug around
two lenses all the time.
Something lke a 14-140, f3.5-5.6 need not be expensive and would
likely be very good, considering the great quality and reputation of
Olympus glass.
Something that "we" want (at least I do) and something that will sell
as well.
What a great kit. A 620 and such a lens.
--
Bill D.
http://billd.smugmug.com/

Click to expand...

--
Raj Sarma
http://www.flickr.com/photos/rssarma
--
NYC Local UKPSG Group: http://snipurl.com/crc3n

Olympus enthusiasts from NYC Metro, join UKPSG:
http://www.alert-central.co.uk/personalinvite.php?by=Raj%20Sarma