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Pure photographic tool (your thoughts on "bells & whistles")

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ulrichvonlich

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That's the way Phil Askey called Leica M8 when he did the review.

Compare it to my E-1:

My E-1 has (from what I use the most to the least):
-two dials
-exposure compensation button
-metering mode button
-AEL button
-ISO button
-PASM dial

The M8 is basically a camera with two rings and a shutter button.

So, can an experienced photographer do all the exposure adjustments via aperture ring plus shutter speed ring only?

Do you think the controls in today's cameras important as they make life easier, or they are excuses from those who refuse to learn the true photography?

Best Regards,
Tony
 
ulrichvonlich said:
Do you think the controls in today's cameras important as they make
life easier, or they are excuses from those who refuse to learn the
true photography?
Click to expand...
I think it's a false analogy. The controls on a digital camera are not limited to those governing exposure; they go on to include the equivalent of the equipment and chemicals on the shelves of a darkroom. A film photographer can't provide the final result without the laboratory equipment; even if he may not be responsible for using it directly, somebody's got to know how to manage three-filter or dichroic enlargers and various developing recipes and tecniques. All or most of those are included in modern digital cameras.

--
'And only the stump, or fishy part of him remained'

http://www2.gol.com/users/nhavens
A Contemplative Companion to Fujino Township
 
ulrichvonlich said:
That's the way Phil Askey called Leica M8 when he did the review.

Compare it to my E-1:
Click to expand...
Keeping it for FourThirds, have you had a close look at the Panasonic L1?
ulrichvonlich said:
The M8 is basically a camera with two rings and a shutter button.
Click to expand...
But photography was never just that...while we have to deal with white balance today, in the past we had filters to deal with under different lighting conditions...and if we stuck all the auto (or Program) modes we'd never have to adjust anything, just turn it on and press the shutter release.
ulrichvonlich said:
So, can an experienced photographer do all the exposure adjustments
via aperture ring plus shutter speed ring only?
Click to expand...
In the old days I'd look at a scene I want to photograph and turn the shutter speed and aperture to the settings I think would work...that would be BEFORE looking through the viewfinder and light meter...but today's cameras (except for the L1) doesn't make that easy since the dial is used for many functions and isn't marked.

I wish that most of the buttons could be reprogrammable, or at least firmware you can customize on your computer, for instance changing the metering button which I've never used (except initially setting up the camera) to something I use all the time (like DOF Preview).
ulrichvonlich said:
Do you think the controls in today's cameras important as they make
life easier, or they are excuses from those who refuse to learn the
true photography?
Click to expand...
There's always been point & shoot cameras including SLRs with little or no controls. I think the controls on todays cameras (of all types) give the user full automation with the option to customize their settings, compared to the limitations of yesterdays P&S film cameras!
 
I don't know much about film photography.

I am about to finish the first roll of film taken with my OM4. I will have to send it to a lab to get it developed. So I guess the images will be adjusted to the taste of developer :(
Hokuto said:
ulrichvonlich said:
Do you think the controls in today's cameras important as they make
life easier, or they are excuses from those who refuse to learn the
true photography?
Click to expand...
I think it's a false analogy. The controls on a digital camera are
not limited to those governing exposure; they go on to include the
equivalent of the equipment and chemicals on the shelves of a
darkroom. A film photographer can't provide the final result without
the laboratory equipment; even if he may not be responsible for using
it directly, somebody's got to know how to manage three-filter or
dichroic enlargers and various developing recipes and tecniques. All
or most of those are included in modern digital cameras.

--
'And only the stump, or fishy part of him remained'

http://www2.gol.com/users/nhavens
A Contemplative Companion to Fujino Township
Click to expand...
 
Hi Mike,
Mike_PEAT said:
Keeping it for FourThirds, have you had a close look at the Panasonic
L1?
Click to expand...
Yes I did! But the L1 has all the controls a modern DSLR can offer, plus two rings. The M8 seems to be A LOT simpler. I don't know if things like metering modes are buried in the menu or they don't exist at all..
Mike_PEAT said:
In the old days I'd look at a scene I want to photograph and turn the
shutter speed and aperture to the settings I think would work...that
would be BEFORE looking through the viewfinder and light meter...
Click to expand...
That's impressive! If you have your own "metering system", a L1 or M8 sytled camera would definitely make sens.
Mike_PEAT said:
I wish that most of the buttons could be reprogrammable, or at least
firmware you can customize on your computer, for instance changing
the metering button which I've never used (except initially setting
up the camera) to something I use all the time (like DOF Preview).
Click to expand...
I use the metering button a lot. For landscapes I mostly use ESP (with EV adjustments) but for portraits, I use central weight to make sure the person's face is correctly exposed. May I ask how you would deal with it? (ex: when there are shades on the person's face and the ESP system is most likely to make a mistake) Do you actually know many EV steps to raise to get the face properly exposed?
Mike_PEAT said:
There's always been point & shoot cameras including SLRs with little
or no controls. I think the controls on todays cameras (of all
types) give the user full automation with the option to customize
their settings, compared to the limitations of yesterdays P&S film
cameras!
Click to expand...
That's for sure! Until like 5 years ago, the only camera I had ever touched was an old plastic film camera (with a G9 like VF) and today's DSLRs are so much more competent.

Cheers,
Tony
 
ulrichvonlich said:
I don't know much about film photography.

I am about to finish the first roll of film taken with my OM4. I will
have to send it to a lab to get it developed. So I guess the images
will be adjusted to the taste of developer :(
Click to expand...
That's right. Of course there are strict standards and rules for developing issued by each film and chemical manufacturer, but if you want some special color or other treatment (push developing for underexposed images, etc.) you have to know how to ask for it (and pay for it) at the developing shop. That's just one reason that I'm not too sad to leave film behind. With digital you can change color, contrast, and ISO settings in "mid-roll" unlike in the film age when you had to develop an entire roll of film at the same development settings.

--
'And only the stump, or fishy part of him remained'

http://www2.gol.com/users/nhavens
A Contemplative Companion to Fujino Township
 
Pretty much anything you do with the available exposure controls on a DSLR changes either the shutter speed or the aperture setting. (in other words, if you are in Aperture mode, changing exposure comp. changes the shutter speed, and vice/versa). Im not sure if Exposure Compensation is a bell, or a whistle, but it IS one or the other.

In effect, a camera without those extra "settings" is just as capable, but you "gotta do it yourself".

Half the time I shoot in "A" mode and use exposure comp, the other half of the time, I shoot in "M" mode.

Bells and whistles are available on most cameras, but keep in mind that you aren't REQUIRED to use them (except on a "pocket Camera"), and on the whole, they are NOT detrimental to the camera.

Having a dedicated shutter speed knob, and a dedicated Aperture setting is nice, but doesn't make the capture any better. (doesnt make the camera "better" or more "Pro" either, thats all in the mind of the guy holding the camera).

From the amount of "Carping" going on about the "filters" on the new cameras, you would think that Oly had made the camera incapable of taking a photo without using them.

I have several film cameras with dedicated A and S knobs, and a couple with A ring on the lens for aperture and a knob for shutter... none of it makes a difference... If I set it right, aim it right, focus it right, and press the shutter button at the right time, and in the right way, I get the photo.

When Phil says something is a "pure photographic tool" keep in mind that even though this site is about DIGITAL photography, Phil is a little "old school" in his thinking.

I, OTOH, dont long for the "old days"... I lived through them, and, for the most part, they sucked.

--
Larry

Don't confuse fame with success. Paris Hilton is one; Helen Keller is the other
 
There's certainly something nice about working with simple tools. It tends to induce a different mental state than using something with a zillion options. Still, I've quickly become addicted to the G1's face-detecting AF :-).
 
ulrichvonlich said:
I've been wondering if it's possible to take photos using human
metering system instead of camera's. (correct exposures or nearly of
course)
Click to expand...
With a lot of practice, yes. Long time ago when photographers only had B/W film to shoot with and no exposure metering the "sunny 16 rule" was used. It is still valid.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sunny_16

--
Henk
 
ulrichvonlich said:
The M8 is basically a camera with two rings and a shutter button.

So, can an experienced photographer do all the exposure adjustments
via aperture ring plus shutter speed ring only?
Click to expand...
no i dont

M8 is a camera steeped in the history of film, with a film camera the film container contains the 'programming' necessary for a desired image or look



but they usually offer easily viewed control groups visible from the top of the camera
ulrichvonlich said:
Do you think the controls in today's cameras important as they make
life easier, or they are excuses from those who refuse to learn the
true photography?
Click to expand...
no, the way important controls are organised in menus is just silly

the way out is a hybrid of both. Many controls hidden in menus cannot be seen in the OVF or from the top deck, they are required to be preset



yes an aperture ring, a speed dial, are required

but also needed are a new set of control wheels for WB, for e/v, for ISO, and frame rate. This new control set also belongs on the top deck.

High level cameras are all about control, controls you can set and see on the top deck of the camera enable you to preset and preview controls in the normal slung position. This function has been delegated to the top deck LCD panel on digitals, but the layout varies and it cannot be read as analogue controls are read. And not all SLRs have them....



we know from more critical instrument revisions, that control indicators need more separation, and need to be uniquely identifiable at a glance.



tiny LCDs on the top deck do not adequately fulfil that contribution.

--
Riley

no one notices the contrast of white on white
 
Tony,

It sounds like you should read a little about the "zone system". Wikipedia has an entry, and although some of the sections are poorly written and a waste of time, the basics are there.

I'm not suggesting you use the zone system rigidly, mostly because things are bit different with digital vs. film. But it helps greatly to have a basic understanding of how the metering system works and how to manipulate the exposure based on how you want the scene recorded.

The metering system on your OM-4 is an excellent learning tool for this, and to my mind one of the best metering systems on any camera. If you take a spot meter and adjust your exposure settings to put the spot in the middle of your exposure scale in the viewfinder, which you might think indicates a "perfect exposure" but in reality what it tells you is that whatever you metered will be rendered on the film/sensor as though it represents 12% reflectance.

In digital terms this means that whatever was spot-metered will be just to the left of the center of the histogram. Perfect exposure? Probably not! Certainly not if what you spot metered was a snowman on a bright winter day (you would have underexposed the snowman) or if it were a black dog (the dog would be overexposed). Now you can think about how many stops up or down you want to modify the exposure so that the image is recorded on film/sensor the way YOU want it to be. What makes the OM-4 so brilliant is that you can take multiple spot meter readings which makes it all the more easy to balance the highlights and shadows in your image.

Hope this helps. I'm still consuming my daily dose of caffeine so hopefully this is somewhat coherent. :)

-Steve
 
ulrichvonlich said:
Do you think the controls in today's cameras important as they make
life easier, or they are excuses from those who refuse to learn the
true photography?
Click to expand...
I think they are important, and make life easier and often operation faster - there are many shots that you can shoot off today that would have been much harder with a manual film camera if even possible.

That said I find the all manual operation is more fun and I find simple cameras more enjoyable to use and for what I like to shoot it makes little difference whether its digital or film. Well you do have to pay for film but in some situations I actually think the all manual cameras have an advantage (low light in particular oddly enough - film does not band and a proper focal distance and DoF scale are considerably more useful than the E510's AF system if its really dark). Anyway, easy enough to go between the two. This week I have the E510 but last week it was the OM2n and the before that the Bessa-T (complete with useless meter and no VF - about as basic as it gets).

Switching between them probably gives some appreciation for the bells and whistles but may teach you not to be reliant on them. You mentioned getting exposure right but guessing exposure and getting close isn't very hard at all but I don't think learning that needs a simple photographic tool - if anything the E510 with its persnickety sensor forced me to learn. Much easier to be cavalier about exposure with B&W film. If I were shooting sports or weddings or something that had very fast action and needed rapid turnaround I'd not look at film. Horses for courses.

Cheers,
-Gautham

--
C&C always welcome.
Reality must take precedence over public relations, for nature cannot be fooled.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/gnarayan/
 
ulrichvonlich said:
That's the way Phil Askey called Leica M8 when he did the review.
Compare it to my E-1:
Click to expand...
They're really not all that different.
ulrichvonlich said:
So, can an experienced photographer do all the exposure adjustments
via aperture ring plus shutter speed ring only?
Click to expand...
An experienced photographer can do everything required for exposure setting with just aperture and shutter time settings. These are the two parameters that all the exposure controls on any camera are used to set.
ulrichvonlich said:
Do you think the controls in today's cameras important as they make
life easier, or they are excuses from those who refuse to learn the
true photography?
Click to expand...
1) What is "true photography" ... ?
2) "excuses" ... ?

The complex controls of today's cameras are there for a purpose, whether driven by need, convenience, or whatever. It often takes just as much or more effort to learn how to exploit them to maximum advantage than it ever did to learn how to set the aperture and shutter controls. On the other hand, the convenience and automation options allow a great deal of simplification for those who do not need or do not want extraordinary and specific manual control of exposure.

Trying to paint a sensible picture of the full spectrum of photographic technology with only black and white paints leads to gross over-generalizations and incorrect ideas. I would suggest learning something more about photography, in theory and practice before trying to judge whether one thing is better than another in such a large scale perspective.

My own work in making photographs depends on the understanding of and ability to control the fundamentals of exposure, focus, perspective, framing, and timing. "How to set the controls, where to point the lens, when to push the button" in essence. This is what I deem to be "pure photography" in any guise, with any equipment. I can do that with a "simple" camera or a "complex" camera ... there are things I can do with the complex camera that would be difficult to do with the simple camera, and times when I appreciate the automation and convenience of the complex camera for it's apparent simplicity of operation. Yet there are times when the complex camera can pose a distraction and I yearn for the lack of distractions and explicit control paradigm that a simple camera provides.

A simple, "pure" camera implies nothing more than that the complexity of making a photograph rests more on my understanding of how to control it than on any in-built automation system.

G
 
When I got my first slr camera I thought the light meter would provide a complete guide to exposure. It was a scientific instrument capable of analyzing the amount of light in the scene, so I thought I would just follow its advice and not have to think about exposure any more. Immediately frustration set in because it only tells you the exposure for a scene adding up to middle gray. I had to learn to adjust the exposure by eye for how much the scene differed from gray, so even if you have a metering system, even the supposedly intelligent matrix systems, you still have to use judgment.

--
Steve

http://www.flickr.com/photos/knoblock/
http://picasaweb.google.com/steve.knoblock

Film will only become art when its materials are as inexpensive as pencil and paper. -- Jean Cocteau
 
Pure...photo tool eh.

All in the eye of the beholder... but what can you do?

1: Set the ISO, in film it would be selecting your film and whether to push/pull
2: Set to M.

3: Meter externally, you with or without light meter. The camera would still be metering so what, ignore the exposure info? Set it to spot metering and promise to not half-press the shutter, because you are not AF'ing either? On some camera you can disable half shutter exposure and if you set to MF, nothing will happen if you half-press the shutter.
4: Turn of IS.
5: Shoot RAW.
6: No chimping? this would be cheating.

This could be fun to try.
 
My previous post was actually just a bookmark.

I use different cameras in different situations.

The E-3 (and, when nostalgia kicks in, also the E-1) are used most and in all kinds of situations. Mostly A or S priority, but I also use P.
On the E-1 I often used legacy lenses. Nice experience.

For examples, see almost everything on http://roelh.zenfolio.com/

The E-330 can do most of the same (although it has no IS), but I have limited my use of that camera for what I call and old-fashioned rangefinder-type experience. I shoot it on A or S priority, and have my JPG output set to monochrome (with the in-camera "filters"). I use only the 25, 35 and 50 mm ZD primes on that one. I try to not mess with any other settings. It gives me a very different photographic pleasure. Basically : fooling myself that I am not shooting digital.



There are times when I combine both, for very different results, shot seconds apart. On a recent concert shoot, I used E-3 and E-330 (set like above) :





Sometimes, but probably not often enough, I take out the OM2n and shoot film. I always enjoy the experience, but obviously, digital is much more convenient.

The results are generally pleasing in print, and the scans do not do them justice, but it is the only way I can show something :



And when I want to go really crazy, I take out something like a LOMO Supersampler, and am curious what will result from the 24 exposures (actually, 24 divided in 4 little strips with a small time lapse each).
Same remark about the quality of scans versus the prints :



I consider ALL of these cameras to be "photographic tools", with different options and different results. The degree to which you want to limit the camera doing stuff for you, and you taking control, is up to the user and his state of mind.

--
Roel Hendrickx
--

E-3 user field report from Tunisian Sahara: http://www.biofos.com/ukpsg/roel.html
member of UK (+ abroad) Photo Safari Group ( http://www.ukphotosafari.org/ )

wanna join? http://www.alert-central.co.uk/personalinvite.php?by=Roel%20Hendrickx
 
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