Tamron 70-200 vs Sigma 70-200

awaldram said:

I believe the reason SDM/HSM is faster in use than in body is torque.

These are just my observations after using both on f2.8 tele's

In body is a lot faster traveling end to end (like we do that in
image taking ;-))
SDM/HSM is a lot faster starting and stopping the lens.

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Are you talking about just Pentax, or is this the case for Nikon too? In bright light, the in-body start/stop speed is so fast it's hard to believe the HSM could be any faster. Anyway, the problem I have with tracking a moving subject is due to the fact that the camera (K10d) simply doesn't have predictive AF. The subject can be in focus when the button is pressed, but it won't be by the time the shutter opens.

awaldram said:

This leads to my observed fact that SDM/HSM is approx 3x faster when
tracking moving targets .

Click to expand...

If this is true, then maybe I should consider trying the Sigma. The HSMII version gets a lot of bad user reviews and does poorly in official reviews as well. Is version I a better lens to get (sacrifice close up ability, but get better sharpness)? I've heard version I was good and then Sigma ruined it when they went to version II of the lens.

Bart
--
http://zumbari.zenfolio.com

Bart Hickman said:

awaldram said:

I believe the reason SDM/HSM is faster in use than in body is torque.

These are just my observations after using both on f2.8 tele's

In body is a lot faster traveling end to end (like we do that in
image taking ;-))
SDM/HSM is a lot faster starting and stopping the lens.

Click to expand...

Are you talking about just Pentax, or is this the case for Nikon too?
In bright light, the in-body start/stop speed is so fast it's hard to
believe the HSM could be any faster.

Click to expand...

Not sure how your measuring the difference of a few hundredths of a second.

If the inbody takes .1 sec to start you wouldn't notice this on a static object. But if an object was approaching such that the lens had to be adjusted every .09 of a sec then it would never track Focus.

If SDM takes .05 sec to start then you would not be able to tell against a static object but the above moving object could now be tracked.

Bart Hickman said:

Anyway, the problem I have with
tracking a moving subject is due to the fact that the camera (K10d)
simply doesn't have predictive AF. The subject can be in focus when
the button is pressed, but it won't be by the time the shutter opens.

Click to expand...

I to am using a k10d , Predictive AF might help fast moving objects but not slower objects and in all my tests was not related.

Again not sure how your seeing 'in focus' prior to shutter press but not in focus when taken.

My Observation is Pentax related only

Bart Hickman said:

Bart Hickman said:

This leads to my observed fact that SDM/HSM is approx 3x faster when
tracking moving targets .

Click to expand...

If this is true, then maybe I should consider trying the Sigma. The
HSMII version gets a lot of bad user reviews and does poorly in
official reviews as well. Is version I a better lens to get
(sacrifice close up ability, but get better sharpness)? I've heard
version I was good and then Sigma ruined it when they went to version
II of the lens.

Click to expand...

Not sure where you got that.The true story is
Original 70-200 EX = incredibility sharp at 200mm bad at 70mm min focus 180cm
70-200 EX HSM DG = as above but Digital Coating ,HSM not available in Pentax

70-200 EX HSM DG Macro HSM = a little less sharp at 200mm good at 70mm min focus 100cm , not made in Pentax at all.

70-200 EX HSMII DG Macro = improved 200mm performance excellent at 70mm min focus 100cm Available in Pentax.

Bart Hickman said:

Is version I a better lens to get.?

Click to expand...

No as it was never released in Pentax !!

If you want the ultimate in 200mm Goodness you could hunt out an old non HSM sigma (like mine) or just buy the Pentax DA* 200mm.

If you want a competent Zoom then stear clear of the original as its only any good from 135-200

Your best bet today is either the Tamron (probably edges it at 200mm) or the Sigma (more even performance across the range and better for sport).

As I stated before I've yet to hear of anyone with EX (professional) Sigmas with any serious QC issue in Pentax (I understand the EOS mount has issues due to the complex protocol). There is problems with BF/FF occasionally (can be camera related) but Sigma has resolved these issues promptly for the owner.

They don't seem to suffer from decentering (non aligned doublet) unlike another manufacturer closer to our heart ;-).

Bart Hickman said:

Bart
--
http://zumbari.zenfolio.com

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Hi Bart,

Just remembered you from another thread ;-)

Bart Hickman said:

Nothing against Sigma. My very favorite lens by far is my Sigma 17-70. Getting that > lens stabilized was a big reason I got Pentax in the first place. And if I don't like the > Tamron I just got, I may send it back (although so far, it's pretty good.)

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Is that your replacement Tamron thats pretty good or the faulty one you returned .??

Appears Tamron may have some QC issues eh?

I've now read 4 reports of ghosting wide open with this lens.

In truth all lens have some duds out there and you can make anything you like from the reports.

You have to measure who is doing the complaining and what percentage you imagine of items sold are reported bad.

I find in this forum it is always a list of 5 members who make all the noise on Sigma QC of which 2 actually have had issues with Sigma lenses in Pentax mount and the others just appear to like to get their second hand word in whenever they see Sigma in the subject line.
Strangley none have chimed in this thread Yet ;-)

awaldram said:

Just remembered you from another thread ;-)

awaldram said:

Nothing against Sigma. My very favorite lens by far is my Sigma 17-70. Getting that > lens stabilized was a big reason I got Pentax in the first place. And if I don't like the > Tamron I just got, I may send it back (although so far, it's pretty good.)

Click to expand...

Is that your replacement Tamron thats pretty good or the faulty one
you returned .??

Click to expand...

That's the second copy. Heh heh. Yes, the 1st Tamron had a QC issue in my case at close focus distances.

I didn't really base my opinion of these two lenses much on reports here because there weren't that many. Far more reports from Canon and Nikon owners. In any case, I wished there was more info, but I gotta go by what I could find.

Nikon and Canon forums seemed pretty hard on the Sigma--particularly the II. I don't mean they were bashing Sigma in general--just the 70-200 HSM II in particular. One review site (I don't recall which--it was referenced in the Canon lens forum) got three bad copies of the Sigma in a row.

I must admit, dpreview's assessment of the Sigma at the long end is odd in that the lens is least sharp in the center. That strikes me as not normal. Have you found that to be the case?

Given that it only costs about $20 to try a lens (return shipping charge + cost of $700 for a month), it's probably a better use of my time to just buy both lenses and send back the less-good one rather than poring over dozens of user reports of varying degrees of scrutinizing.

Bart
--
http://zumbari.zenfolio.com

The hsmII I tried was optically exactly what I was expecting.

Sharp at 200mm F2.8
Sharp at 135mm F2.8

Sharp at 70mm F2.8 (better than I expected based on my experience of the original)

HSM did not appear any quicker than SDM
and the Tamron

Sharp at 200mm F2.8 better than Sigma hsmii close call.
Good at 135mm F2.8 was surprised here not as good as expected
Sharp at 70mm F2.8 very good on par with sigma

For completeness Sigma non HSM

Sharp at 200mm (top bracket) a match for the 200 DA* IMO.
Sharp at 135mm Better than Tamron but not as good as HSMii
Poor at 70mm between 70-135 things gradualy improve would rate as good at 100

I never tested anything but F2.8 as thats what I was intrested in and only 1 version of each so could be sample variation.

The Tamron appeared to focus quicker but once in AF-c the Sigma was considerably better at tracking subjects (only pedestrians who probably wondered what I was doing).

In short I think the Tamorn is better optically at the extremes 70 and 200
The Sigma is better in th 100-150 range.

The Tamron is faster to focus from infinity to 2 meters
The Sigma is faster continuous focusing

I think its a toss up between the Tamron and Sigma depending on requirement , If best 200mm performance was the requirement the Pentax DA * 200mm would head up my list.

jakey217350 said:

Alas, I use the lens mostly for sports photography, especially night
photography. The Tammy was very disappointing in this role. The
optics were fine - when I could get it to focus. The focus is
frustrating slow for action pics, even in daylight. After a few tries
I gave up using it and started using my DA* 200mm instead. Much
better, but I wanted the zoom feature.

Click to expand...

Hope it is just initial QC issue re Tamron.

I would love to see your comparison shots posted on both DA* & your Sigma. I do have the former and still waiting on the sideline to see the comparison shots

jakey217350 said:

So, after about a month of use I sold the Tammy on Ebay. I
immediately bought the Sigma 70-200 for the same type of use. I am
THRILLED with the Sigma. The HSM focus works great in all conditions.
Perfect? No, of course not, but a BIG improvement over the Tammy.

It is my fault for not choosing the correct lens for my needs. If I
read the reviews more carefully and wasn't so cheap I would have
known. I was penny wise and pound foolish discounting the value of
the HSM focus and fearing the softness at the Sigma at the long end.
It is a bit soft at the long end but the great focusing speed makes
up for that downside.

Just my anecdotal experience.

Jay
--
http://attorneyjay.smugmug.com/

Click to expand...

--
Daniel, Toronto
http://www.pbase.com/danieltong

That would be brilliant wide open comparison shots of the Sigma and DA*.

I love to see that if you would be so kind

Just chiming in on Sigma QC. I've had both good and bad from them. My latest purchase is a 100-300mm f/4. It's a wonderful lens but the store is ordering me a new one because it won't focus to infinity at 100mm. Luckily the store is letting me keep the 'bum' lens until the new one arrives.
--
Don in Toronto
http://www.flickr.com/photos/siderean

Hi

I've owned the tamron for a week prior to send it back for another copy. The new lens is on it's way, I should have it soon. Anyway, it's an absolutely false statement to say the tammy is bad @135mm, in fact my 1st lens was excellent at [email protected], but had some ghosting wide open except at 135mm ! (most gone @f3.5). I've also experienced some random missfocus shots, like the DPR seem's to report, so for theses reasons, I sent it back.

I hope the new one give me better results, if not, I will try the sigma again and keep the better one.

awaldram said:

I've been trying to advise people of this but they just don't seem to
listen.

There seems to be some kind of Tamron hypnosis probably based on the
dpreview of the 2 lenses.

Whilst I agree the Tamron edges the Sigma at 200mm they are very even
at 70 and the Sigma blows the Tamron out the water at 135m.

And if you want to us the lens for sports/action then the decision is
a no brainer.

SDM is streets ahead when it comes to AF tracking.

Click to expand...

awaldram said:

In body is a lot faster traveling end to end (like we do that in
image taking ;-))
SDM/HSM is a lot faster starting and stopping the lens.

I did some quick tests with the Sigma HSMII and the Tamron 70-200
F2.8 and found them to be identical in performance to my above lenses.

Click to expand...

Don't get it. First you say sd/hsm speed better, than you say body driven lens and HSM are equal ? So they can track identically fast ...???

lock

astigmate said:

Hi

I've owned the tamron for a week prior to send it back for another
copy. The new lens is on it's way, I should have it soon. Anyway,
it's an absolutely false statement to say the tammy is bad @135mm, in
fact my 1st lens was excellent at [email protected], but had some ghosting
wide open except at 135mm ! (most gone @f3.5). I've also experienced
some random missfocus shots, like the DPR seem's to report, so for
theses reasons, I sent it back.

I hope the new one give me better results, if not, I will try the
sigma again and keep the better one.

Click to expand...

I'm proceeding down this path right now. Just ordered the Sigma from Adorama. Hopefully, by the time we get this all figured out, the K30d will be here to make either one focus faster!

Bart
--
http://zumbari.zenfolio.com

Hi Bart

I'm glad you've decided this. It's always great to have end users feedback and especially here, comparing the 2 lens side by side will be very usefull. I'm sure many people wait for this before making their final choice.

Have a nice day.

Bart Hickman said:

I'm proceeding down this path right now. Just ordered the Sigma from
Adorama. Hopefully, by the time we get this all figured out, the
K30d will be here to make either one focus faster!

Bart
--
http://zumbari.zenfolio.com

Click to expand...

lock said:

awaldram said:

In body is a lot faster traveling end to end (like we do that in
image taking ;-))
SDM/HSM is a lot faster starting and stopping the lens.

I did some quick tests with the Sigma HSMII and the Tamron 70-200
F2.8 and found them to be identical in performance to my above lenses.

Click to expand...

Don't get it. First you say sd/hsm speed better, than you say body
driven lens and HSM are equal ? So they can track identically fast
...???

Click to expand...

No what im saying is if you put the lens cap on and make the lens focus from infinity to shortest and back again the in body is quicker ....

But if you use the lens to move short incremental distances as in tracking a moving target then SDM/HSM is quicker.

Never once have I said or implied they are equal.

So SDM can overcome the inertia of the glass quicker than the in-body but final velocity is lower.

lock said:

lock

Click to expand...

As you were comparing both lenses with two others....

"I did some quick tests with the Sigma HSMII and the Tamron 70-200 F2.8 and found them to be identical in performance to my above lenses."

lock

lock said:

As you were comparing both lenses with two others....
"I did some quick tests with the Sigma HSMII and the Tamron 70-200
F2.8 and found them to be identical in performance to my above
lenses."

lock

Click to expand...

Ah I see but if you read the lot it makes sense (at least to me)

lock said:

This leads to my observed fact that SDM/HSM is approx 3x faster when tracking > moving targets .

Click to expand...

lock said:

Most of my big glass in body driven lenses are unusable in AF-c being incapable > of following even a running dog reliably (focus comes in and out you take pot luck > when firing the shutter)
Whereas my SDM lens is able to track a car approaching.

Click to expand...

lock said:

The 2 lenses used for most testing were Sigma 70-200 F2.8 EX (in Body) Pentax > DA* 50-135 (SDM).

Click to expand...

lock said:

I did some quick tests with the Sigma HSMII and the Tamron 70-200 F2.8 and > found them to be identical in performance to my above lenses.

Click to expand...

So the HSMii is the same performance wise as the DA* 50-135
and the Tamron the same as the SIgma EX (in Body)

That would make the HSM lens better for tracking. But I have found the 50-135 not to be the best lens to do that once the light levels drop to EV 6-EV 7. Not to mention when I go indoors, where light levels may go down to EV 5. If the Sigma isn't better than the 50-135, it's a waste of money and time for me...

lock

The review lens here was a dud it would seem, there are quite a few copies with front focussing issues but the ones I've tried (two Mk2s) have been sharp where they are focussed at BOTH ends wideopen which is a LOT better than the original model of 70-200EX HSM non DG, non Macro which was an F5.6 lens really .....

Not tried the Tamron, the price is excellent, the AF motor Sad - shame they can't make a Ring USM system (nikon, Minolta and Sigma did) or at least license Sigma's..

Thats the issue with lens reviews full stop, you need 10 copies to make sure you're testing a lens which is representive of the model concerned - it's an issue with Canon, Sony, Pentax and Nikon as well as the 3rd parties !

--
Please ignore the Typos, I'm the world's worst Typist

Is there any telephoto lens that a K10d or K20d can do any sort of focus tracking with at levels below 6 EV? At the long focal lengths especially with the DOF so shallow.

I think your only option at the moment is either hope the K30d improves the AF system, or consider another brand.

Bart

lock said:

That would make the HSM lens better for tracking. But I have found
the 50-135 not to be the best lens to do that once the light levels
drop to EV 6-EV 7. Not to mention when I go indoors, where light
levels may go down to EV 5. If the Sigma isn't better than the
50-135, it's a waste of money and time for me...

lock

Click to expand...

--
http://zumbari.zenfolio.com

Bart Hickman said:

I think your only option at the moment is either hope the K30d
improves the AF system, or consider another brand.

Bart

lock said:

That would make the HSM lens better for tracking. But I have found
the 50-135 not to be the best lens to do that once the light levels
drop to EV 6-EV 7. Not to mention when I go indoors, where light
levels may go down to EV 5. If the Sigma isn't better than the
50-135, it's a waste of money and time for me...

lock

Click to expand...

Click to expand...

So thats 1/250 at F2.8 iso3200 ??

I ask ask as my EV usage is a bit dodgy

I shoot Around EV 7/8 (I think) 1/320 F2.8 iso 1250 and don't have any issue with the DA* 50-135 in AF-c I also use my Sigma EX (inbody) f2.8 70-200 but have to use it is AF-s as it won't track. This is on a k10d.

My subjects are head on swimmers so their not that fast (though they think they are ;-) ) , Mind you close in relative velocity is quite high.

Bart Hickman said:

--
http://zumbari.zenfolio.com

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Hello Adam-T:

Adam-T said:

Not tried the Tamron, the price is excellent, the AF motor Sad -
shame they can't make a Ring USM system (nikon, Minolta and Sigma
did) or at least license Sigma's..

Click to expand...

I was fortunate enough to receive a stellar copy of the Tamron 70-200 f/2.8 on the first try...Personally I think the Tammy 70-200 with the screw drive used on a K20D is quite snappy...Compared to using the SDM on 50-135 and 16-50 I actually prefer the screw drive at this point...Pentax is still way behind in both the lens and camera development with regard to a lens AF motor system...Why in heck they would only implement a micro-motor AF at this stage in beyond me...That technology is at least 10-15 years old...

Adam-T said:

Thats the issue with lens reviews full stop, you need 10 copies to
make sure you're testing a lens which is representive of the model
concerned - it's an issue with Canon, Sony, Pentax and Nikon as well
as the 3rd parties !

Click to expand...

So sad but true...And you are correct in that Canikon is not much better...I have purchased a couple horendous "L" lenses that would have made a kit lens seem superior...The only real way to guarantee some hope of success is to buy the lenses and test yourself...I would never diss a lens solely on someone else's opinion...There are so many variables that trying them is the only objective way...Just because someone receives a stellar/terrible Tamron or Sigma doesn't mean that you will...It only proves that stellar/terrible ones are out there which makes the hunt that much more exciting...

As always I tune in whenever I see a response of yours as I know it will be pretty close to the overall truth and usually objective...

lw

Adam-T said:

The review lens here was a dud it would seem, there are quite a few
copies with front focussing issues but the ones I've tried (two Mk2s)
have been sharp where they are focussed at BOTH ends wideopen which
is a LOT better than the original model of 70-200EX HSM non DG, non
Macro which was an F5.6 lens really .....
Not tried the Tamron, the price is excellent, the AF motor Sad -
shame they can't make a Ring USM system (nikon, Minolta and Sigma
did) or at least license Sigma's..
Thats the issue with lens reviews full stop, you need 10 copies to
make sure you're testing a lens which is representive of the model
concerned - it's an issue with Canon, Sony, Pentax and Nikon as well
as the 3rd parties !

--
Please ignore the Typos, I'm the world's worst Typist

Click to expand...