d100 or s2 pro ???

Jean Montambeault · Jun 24, 2002

David SL said:
The D100 has 12 selectable ISO levels the S2 does not(only 6).

It seems to me that having good ISO 100 is more important ; others at one stop distance seem sufficient.
Will the ISO 3200 and 6400 on small format be really useful ?

David SL said:
The D100 has 3 selectable color spaces, the S2 does not(1).

To achieve 3 color space on the S2, one must shoot in CCD-RAW and use the accompanying software.

David SL said:
The D100 has a custom tone curve import option, S2 does not.

Got me there !

David SL said:
The D100 has + -5 adjustments in EV in auto mode, S2 does not(+ -3).

Well, to say the least, if 3 aren't enough...

David SL said:
The D100 has AE and WB bracketing, S2 does not(as far as I know).

It has AE bracketing, for the rest I still have to see. I use little bracketing except AE for some shots that need some dynamic compression in PhotoShop. WB is customizable : how much bracketing does one need after that ?

David SL said:
The D100 has near 3fps shooting speed the S2 is specified to have
only 2fps.

Absolutely right, 2fps in any resolution and/or format.

Rick Boden · Jun 24, 2002

Danny Brenner said:
As a pro photographer for many many years I have never touched
Minolta. All my friends working for the leading Israeli daily
newspapares as well as AP/Reuters/AFP etc. have never touched
Minolta and for the same reason will not ever touch Fuji. Just
Nikon or Canon. Think about it! Think Pro!

Well, W. Eugene Smith used Minolta and he wasn't half bad.

Rick

frank barret · Jun 24, 2002

Randy White wrote:
The most importan thing is the sensor, and Nikon did not make that one.

I say that the most importan thing comes out of the sensor and is the image quality and even if there is not a head to head review here -and that is going to be interesting- preliminary image samples show a hands down superiority on that departament going to the S2 pro.

Remember the S2 pro has a Nikon body with the best sensor of the year..

Randy White said:
Of course the most important thing.

D100 is a Nikon.

S2 Pro is not.

--
Frank Barret

frank barret · Jun 24, 2002

I have used fujifilm film more than Nikon cameras -well, I don't think that you can compare film to photo equipment,- can you? Anyways, my point is that this two companies are among the best product makers in my profetional life. (not because I had a one man show in Fujifilms gallery in Ginza once), this is to respond to someone that said that did't want to have the Fuji logo in his neck. That is a good logo to have. -As good as Mamiya- and then the convination Fuji Nikon (as you know, the body in the S2 pro is that) is a good thing to have.

For me image superiority is the most important because I am a comertial worker, but I think that everyone should pick what is best for them and stop being dogmatick about brands. That is my humble...

Frank Barret

David SL · Jun 24, 2002

frank barret said:
Randy White wrote:

The most importan thing is the sensor, and Nikon did not make that
one.

But it's a darned good sensor none the less, extremely low noise and way high ISO.

frank barret said:
I say that the most importan thing comes out of the sensor and is
the image quality and even if there is not a head to head review
here -and that is going to be interesting- preliminary image
samples show a hands down superiority on that departament going to
the S2 pro.

I beg to differ, I don't think its "hands down" as you suggest...especially now that production level D100 images are about. It's a heck of a lot closer in fact, I compared to the latest S2 samples and the ISO 200 D100 samples looked smoother (noise free) as well as having excellent exposure, color and sharpness. Nikon really improved beta performance by a significant degree IMO. The S2 should still have the edge with pure resolution thanks to it's superCCD but resolution does not total image quality make. It should be interesting to see if the S2 image quality can get any better though.

Regards,

--

David SL · Jun 24, 2002

Jean Montambeault said:
Jean Montambeault said:

Again depends your need.

Better image quality –S2

Click to expand...

I'd say different, probably better for commercial (publicity),
portrait, artistic photography and yet, there's room to discuss
that.

Jury is still out, comparisons I've done with production shots have the D100 images nearly matching some and beating other S2 images. It's very close overall though the S2 does have highier resolving capability.

Jean Montambeault said:
Jean Montambeault said:

Bigger print size –S2

Click to expand...

Inasmuch as one is attentive to the real aliasing problem of Fuji's
interpolation. Easy to spot, easier to correct, limited to a couple
of circumstances but very real.

Jean Montambeault said:
Jean Montambeault said:

User friendly –D100 (if you need vertical shutter release)

Click to expand...

Yep.

Jean Montambeault said:

High ISO -D100

Click to expand...

Is it usable ? Also good only for small pictures I believe.

Very much so, this was indicated in beta and only confirmed with the production shots (Check Seril's high ISO in low light shots and FromtheHip's high ISO shots). D100 images have a very gentle noise ramp, and show little color noise even at 1600 ISO. I've printed a beta image taken at ISO 1000(Phil's bust shot from the preview) at 8 x 10 size with no visible noise the production results are even better. I probably could have gotten away with 12 x 10 if I applied a denoise action to it.

The only factor is Fuji might get their image quality to be better than it currently but they are currently so close I hardly feel it will be a noticeable difference.

Regards,

--

bumjube · Jun 24, 2002

yes it can it just cant use matrix metering

Anthony Medici said:
We know that the D100 can not meter with manual lenses. (non chip)

What about the S2 Pro?

bumjube · Jun 24, 2002

grow up

everyone has their own opinion, so make your comment and be dont with it there is no need for the boyish back and forth between you two

Jean Montambeault said:
sarhento said:

With the language you use, perhaps you should yell that to yourself.

Click to expand...

I see that it is too late for you. My heart feels a little heavier
for that. (Sob)

BTW, I wasn't yelling but whispering with insistance.

Have a nice life if you still can.

bumjube · Jun 24, 2002

i think what was ment is that us humans perceive something is better

even if it is not just because of a name,if this wasnt true then people wouldnt buy nike would they ?

even if something is proven technically better but in our mind we beleive something else is better then end of story,well for the most part this is true and i think camera brands maybe one of the worst ie the never ending nikon/cannon debate ~~shrug~~

but i think if you asked random people on the street what is better nikon or fuji then i think it would weigh in nikon favour only becase most people (except for camera buffs) perceive nikon as a camera maker and fuji as a film maker even though we all here know that fuji make great cameras as well

frank barret said:
I have used fujifilm film more than Nikon cameras -well, I don't
think that you can compare film to photo equipment,- can you?
Anyways, my point is that this two companies are among the best
product makers in my profetional life. (not because I had a one man
show in Fujifilms gallery in Ginza once), this is to respond to
someone that said that did't want to have the Fuji logo in his
neck. That is a good logo to have. -As good as Mamiya- and then the
convination Fuji Nikon (as you know, the body in the S2 pro is
that) is a good thing to have.

For me image superiority is the most important because I am a
comertial worker, but I think that everyone should pick what is
best for them and stop being dogmatick about brands. That is my
humble...

Frank Barret

bumjube · Jun 24, 2002

you have a point there jean , they do not state the mAh rating of the battery or if they are able to provide high current drain( some niMH batteries have a hightish mAh rating but cannot supply hight currents),maybe they are "hiding" the rating of the batery for a reason
??

Jean Montambeault said:
Jean Montambeault said:

I found a link...

http://www.2cr5.co.uk//acatalog/Online_Shopping_Rechargeable_CR123A_Batteries_and_Chargers_2.html

Click to expand...

It looks like they are NiMH batteries though : would they withstand
the current drain of flash, mirror, shutter, aperture that the
CR-123A powers ?

Jean

johno61299 · Jun 25, 2002

It is to be hoped that he socialises exclusively within that group and spares the rest of humanity his company.

sarhento said:
He (my boss) thinks having the word "Fuji" around his neck is not
acceptable given the kind of people he circulates in.

sarhento

Jean Montambeault said:

sarhento said:

My boss' reason: He does not want to be seen with Fuji around his
neck.

sarhento

Click to expand...

I've cancelled two answers to such stupidity because they were just
too obvious and anyone can imagine them : so please do.

You must pass real enlighting days with him...

Click to expand...

--
John.

Gaetan J. · Jun 25, 2002

sjh said:
****,

5 segment D-TTL is proven technology. It is the same as the D-TTL
technology in the professional D1x and D1h cameras.

The TTL in the S2 is based on 35mm film camera technology (F80)
which does not apply in the same way with a digital camera
(distance to film plane versus the CCD sensor).

what ??? no difference in distance. If there where everything else would not work the same, especialy the lens. Your lens marking would be wrong, your minimum focus distance wold not be the same. the mirror mechanism woul have to be redesigned.

Bill Marks said:
Nikon's answer to this was to develop the D-TTL technology which
would give more accurate TTL with a digital SLR.

D-TTL is the simple use of a preflash to mesure the actual flash output needed. This was developed a long time ago for film camera. It use power.

Bill Marks said:
Rgds,

sjh

--
never assume ...

Bill Marks · Jun 25, 2002

Hi Gaetan,

You are right regarding the distance. (Based on bad info I got from another source)

The technology in the Fuji is still based on the F80 film based TTL technology which does not apply to digital cameras with CCD's.

Why else would Nikon incorporate D-TTL in their digital SLR's, as opposed to their technology from the F/N80 ?? Why develop the DX flashes ??

All the best,

sjh

Gaetan J. said:
sjh said:

****,

5 segment D-TTL is proven technology. It is the same as the D-TTL
technology in the professional D1x and D1h cameras.

The TTL in the S2 is based on 35mm film camera technology (F80)
which does not apply in the same way with a digital camera
(distance to film plane versus the CCD sensor).

Click to expand...

what ??? no difference in distance. If there where everything else
would not work the same, especialy the lens. Your lens marking
would be wrong, your minimum focus distance wold not be the same.
the mirror mechanism woul have to be redesigned.

Gaetan J. said:

Nikon's answer to this was to develop the D-TTL technology which
would give more accurate TTL with a digital SLR.

Click to expand...

D-TTL is the simple use of a preflash to mesure the actual flash
output needed. This was developed a long time ago for film camera.
It use power.

Gaetan J. said:

Rgds,

sjh

Click to expand...

--
never assume ...

Thom Hogan · Jun 25, 2002

Anthony Medici said:
Does this mean you can start talking about what you know about the
S2 or is this still "publicly available information"?

At present, I'm restricting myself to information that is publically available. For what it's worth, I usually do that regardless of whether I've signed an NDA with someone. We already have plenty of folk willing to speculate and cause confusion.

--
Thom Hogan
author, Nikon Field Guide
author, Nikon Flash Guide
author, Complete Guide to the Nikon D1, D1h, & D1x
http://www.bythom.com

Thom Hogan · Jun 25, 2002

herbet said:
Thom Hogan said:

Sure is, and one is a biggie: the Fuji uses Nikon's standard flash
methodology (TTL with any TTL Speedlight, just like the 35mm
bodies) and the D100 can only TTL with a DX flash.

Click to expand...

so you're saying my SB28 (not DX version) would work in TTL with
the S2?

Yes. The manual so claims (though I note that in this section it's exactly the same as the N80 manual).

herbet50979 said:
That's a MAJOR plus for the S2 then. I wonder how Fuji does
what Nikon didn't seem to be able to do.

Well, the Fuji S1 sort of did the same thing. Unfortunately, it was built on the N60 body, which was somewhat crippled when it came to advanced features, such as 3DMSBFF. It appears that the filter on the S1's CCD was built to reflect light like film, although Fuji may also have adjusted an internal value in the camera's ROM.

herbet50979 said:
Would Fuji's TTL use the
info from D-lenses as well or they're implementing basic TTL only?

Yes, it is 3DMSBFF with the proper lenses. Frankly, though, the more interesting thing to me is not so much the TTL versus D-TTL business, but the fact that all my wireless TTL capability shows back up (though you'd have to put the S2 into Manual exposure mode or spot metering to use the internal flash as the trigger).

--
Thom Hogan
author, Nikon Field Guide
author, Nikon Flash Guide
author, Complete Guide to the Nikon D1, D1h, & D1x
http://www.bythom.com

Thom Hogan · Jun 25, 2002

Bill Marks said:
This is a little misleading. The Nikon D100 supports 5 segment
D-TTL (TTL for digital SLR), whereas the Fuji S2 only supports
regular 35mm type of TTL.

Well, you need to read the specs a little more closely (or my book). The film bodies all have five-sensor TTL. Note also that Nikon didn't make any changes to the TTL sensors in the D1, meaning that they see outside the frame area! Too soon to tell if the D100 has this same problem.

Bill Marks said:
Since the S2 is not a regular 35mm camera, the TTL flash technology
is not as advanced as the D-TTL the D100 offers with a Nikon DX
dedicated flash.

Actually, you have it backwards. D-TTL REMOVES one critical flash function: the ability to monitor the flash DURING exposure. Other than that, they are the same.

--
Thom Hogan
author, Nikon Field Guide
author, Nikon Flash Guide
author, Complete Guide to the Nikon D1, D1h, & D1x
http://www.bythom.com

Thom Hogan · Jun 25, 2002

sjh said:
Why else would Nikon incorporate D-TTL in their digital SLR's, as
opposed to their technology from the F/N80 ?? Why develop the DX
flashes ??

A good question that's not been answered directly by Nikon. My bet is this: Nikon didn't begin to work on flash until the microlenses on the CCD filter went to production, and they discovered that their reflectance was unreliable or unusable. It's clear that flash was one of the last things they worked on (actually continued to work on after the D1 was introduced if anecdotal evidence can be believed).

Personally, I think flash is one of the few areas where Nikon made serious mistakes in the digital bodies. Consider:
1. D-TTL results are not as reliable as the film TTL bodies produced.
2. No macro flash exists that can be used in TTL mode.
3. All those wireless flashes don't do automatic wireless with digital bodies.

--
Thom Hogan
author, Nikon Field Guide
author, Nikon Flash Guide
author, Complete Guide to the Nikon D1, D1h, & D1x
http://www.bythom.com

Thom Hogan · Jun 25, 2002

Dennis D said:
That feature along
with the fact that the only choice for raw in the S2 is the large
interpolated one (no uninterpolated raw images available) has
caused me to go with the D100

The RAF file format is not interpolated, and requires a computer based software tool to interpolate, just as does Nikon's NEF format.

--
Thom Hogan
author, Nikon Field Guide
author, Nikon Flash Guide
author, Complete Guide to the Nikon D1, D1h, & D1x
http://www.bythom.com

Thom Hogan · Jun 25, 2002

bumjube said:
yes it can it just cant use matrix metering

Try reading the publically available manual: the S2 cannot meter with AI or AI-S lenses, same as the D100.

--
Thom Hogan
author, Nikon Field Guide
author, Nikon Flash Guide
author, Complete Guide to the Nikon D1, D1h, & D1x
http://www.bythom.com

Thom Hogan · Jun 25, 2002

frank barret said:
The most importan thing is the sensor, and Nikon did not make that
one.

While the sensor is certainly one critical component of the image quality of a digital camera, it is NOT the only one. You also have an A/D converter which must be absolutely linear in response, the filter array, and demosaicing hardware built in DSP.

Consider the realm of the consumer digital camera (Coolpix, et. al.). Perhaps 80% of those all use the same source for sensors: Sony. So why does the output look so different amongst all those cameras? It's not simply the lens that's making all that difference (though it does enter into the picture, so to speak). Much of the difference happens at the DSP.

I'll make a prediction here: we won't know the true image quality capability of either camera until the same third party demosaicing routines exist for both raw formats (RAF and NEF).

--
Thom Hogan
author, Nikon Field Guide
author, Nikon Flash Guide
author, Complete Guide to the Nikon D1, D1h, & D1x
http://www.bythom.com

d100 or s2 pro ???

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