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Jump from G9 to 450d. Two (actually just one) complaint...

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ARSPR

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I've just made a jump from PS G9 to EOS450D (+EF-S 18-55 IS lenses) and everything seems REALLY fine but two things:

+ Shallow depth of field and focusing precision. I suppose there's nothing I can do but nevertheless... I've noticed that in moderate low light with no flash and automatic focus point selection, the camera (P mode) normally uses a high aperture (f3 to f5). Because of the greater focal distance the available depth of field is very small. So despite the camera telling that 3 or 4 points have achieved focus, some of them are usually blurred somehow. I suppose the answer is using manual focus point selection on whatever I want to achieve, (the camera is pretty optimistic and actually lies about focussing).

+ Who the hell designed slow-syncro / normal syncro flash in this camera? Is Canon laughing at all of us?

I mean, NORMAL COMMON SENSIBLE REASONABLE behaviour in G9 (P or Av):
+ You have a "Slow Syncro ON/OFF" option.

+ OFF. The camera fires at 1/60 (or faster if there's actually enough light: fill-in flash). Of course in Av you can set aperture value in addition.
+ ON. The camera fires at whatever speed it thought without flash.

450d behaviour (or something like that):
+ In P mode there's no slow syncro. The camera fires at 1/60. Period.

+ In Av, there's a slow syncro option. But it's deeply hidden in Custom Functions with a strange name (CFn-2 Flash sync ....) where Auto is ON and 1/200 is OFF.

So:
+ Why are P (1/60) and Av (1/200) flash speeds different?
+ Why doesn't P have available slow syncro?

+ If the camera does actually use two no-slow syncro flash speeds, why cannot I manually select which of them I want to use in either program?
+ Why has Canon buried this option in the strangest available menu?
+ Why don't EOS crew speak with PS crew?
+ (Please Canon people: a firmware update maybe?)

If I'm wrong, (which will be likely happening), any suggestion is welcomed.
 
ARSPR said:
I've just made a jump from PS G9 to EOS450D (+EF-S 18-55 IS lenses)
and everything seems REALLY fine but two things:

+ Shallow depth of field and focusing precision. I suppose there's
nothing I can do but nevertheless... I've noticed that in moderate
low light with no flash and automatic focus point selection, the
camera (P mode) normally uses a high aperture (f3 to f5). Because of
the greater focal distance the available depth of field is very
small. So despite the camera telling that 3 or 4 points have achieved
focus, some of them are usually blurred somehow. I suppose the answer
is using manual focus point selection on whatever I want to achieve,
(the camera is pretty optimistic and actually lies about focussing).

+ Who the hell designed slow-syncro / normal syncro flash in this
camera? Is Canon laughing at all of us?

I mean, NORMAL COMMON SENSIBLE REASONABLE behaviour in G9 (P or Av):
+ You have a "Slow Syncro ON/OFF" option.
+ OFF. The camera fires at 1/60 (or faster if there's actually enough
light: fill-in flash). Of course in Av you can set aperture value in
addition.
+ ON. The camera fires at whatever speed it thought without flash.

450d behaviour (or something like that):
+ In P mode there's no slow syncro. The camera fires at 1/60. Period.
+ In Av, there's a slow syncro option. But it's deeply hidden in
Custom Functions with a strange name (CFn-2 Flash sync ....) where
Auto is ON and 1/200 is OFF.

So:
+ Why are P (1/60) and Av (1/200) flash speeds different?
+ Why doesn't P have available slow syncro?
+ If the camera does actually use two no-slow syncro flash speeds,
why cannot I manually select which of them I want to use in either
program?
+ Why has Canon buried this option in the strangest available menu?
+ Why don't EOS crew speak with PS crew?
+ (Please Canon people: a firmware update maybe?)

If I'm wrong, (which will be likely happening), any suggestion is
welcomed.
Click to expand...
--
Congratulations on your jump to the 450D

Depth of field is dependent on focal length, aperture, and sensor size.

On a DSLR compared to digicam, focal lengths will be longer and sensor size is bigger. Depth of field is certainly different than a small sensor digicam. It is also (usually) one of the desirable features. Controlling the focus points is also something you will need to learn to use effectively with the new camera since depth of field is so much more an important factor than the P&S.

With flash, yes it is different, but still very functional. If you want just straight flash photography, use P (it will increase shutter speed if there is enough light but will not go below 1/60). For slow sync (or fill in flash or dragging the shutter) use Av and control your aperture and thus depth of field. .

I find no reason to ever initiate the 1/200, so the menu being hidden is fine. If I want 1/200 - Tv mode and select 1/200.
 
Stop trying to figure out all this stuff and put that thing into M (Manual Settings) and learn how to set App, Shutter and ISO together to get the result you want. You are limiting the camera trying to use P or Av or Tv alone.

As for the flash question, you have first curtain and second curtain. First curtain shoots the flash immediately (based on your comments 1/200) and second curtain shoots towards the end (apparently 1/60). Second curtain is helpful for portraits and weddings such that the flash does not fire and people start immediately moving. With second curtian, you get them staying still and then the flash fires, getting a good exposure.

Second curtain is also good at night when shooting night scenes. You capture available light so the background is not completely dark and you get the flash to hit your subject.
 
Congrats on the new camera. You are in for a whole new world!
ARSPR said:
If I'm wrong, (which will be likely happening), any suggestion is
welcomed.
Click to expand...
Just a couple of thoughts...

Most P&S cameras are very user friendly. They put all the good features at your finger tips. Think "autopilot" and the camera won't hardly let you take a bad picture.

DSLR's are lean mean performance machines. You can do just about anything with them, good or bad. This gives you all the creative control, but the limitation is you have to know what you are doing, otherwise you crash and burn and the camera is not going to save you.

So...

Flash use on a canon DSLR was made for MANUAL camera mode. (I think other DSLR's are the same.) That is where you get full control over the camera exposure and flash. You can do anything you want in that mode. Here's a primer on flash use:

http://www.popphoto.com/assets/download/821200311318.pdf

It sounds to me like you knew your P&S camera inside out. It is time to learn the dSLR just as well. You can use the flash in modes other than manual, but they have some peculiar rules. You can learn the rules for each, but I never bothered. Anyway, when I need flash, I am in manual camera mode where I get all the control and don't have to worry about the strange rules of other modes.

It is a lot simpler than you might think. Good luck!

--
CityLights
http://www.pbase.com/citylights
.
 
Thanks for your comments.

But my point about the flash is that G9 DOES actually give the user much more control over flash than 450d if he wants to be creative. And it's also more user-friendly!!!

What's the point on doing things the difficult way if there's an easy way? (And you, I mean Canon, know it BTW ?!?!?!).

Of course, I know that if I want to use slow syncro I have to go to Av. But please tell me just one reason to forbide its usage in P. More over, this camera is supposed to be an entry DSRL. So why is Canon dropping difficulties in the way? (I've just looked a Nikon D60 manual and it allows a G9-like slow syncro)

Another example of deeper flash control in G9, not available in 450d:

+ In manual mode you can also set flash exposure compensation (like 450d) or just flash intensity (from low to full). So if you are expert enough, you can completly override the camera flash metering. Why should a PS be better than an EOS?

Another strange option: manual White Balance.

+ You have to take a test photo.
+ Then you go to WB menu and select that photo.

Why the hell can't you directly make white balance from the center spot in the frame like all PS cameras (or Nikon D60 BTW)? It's just faster and easier.

So I think Canon should do some user-interface work on their EOS line. And what makes me angry is that they already know all those user tricks because they are using them in their PS line.
 
Weth said:
... If you
want just straight flash photography, use P (it will increase shutter
speed if there is enough light but will not go below 1/60)...
Click to expand...
But unless I'm completly wrong then the flash is behaving as a fill-in one.

I mean: in P the camera sets speed to 1/60 and then relies in flash intensity to illuminate the scene. Of course, if you already had enough available light then it fires at faster speeds, (the flash is really not neaded). In this situation the flash is just a foreground fill in flash (against a dark face in the shade or whatever).

But in Av (with slow syncro disabled, whatever name it has), the camera fires at 1/200 and relies in flash intensity to illuminate the scene. So in the same conditions, Av will use a more powerfull flash burst than P, (and will get a darker background anyway).

So as I already told, it really seems that the camera allows the user to actually select two different no-slow syncro speeds, Av with 1/200 and P with 1/60. But it's a pretty unfriendly and obscure way. I still think that much better menus and options (PS-like) are possible.
 
With the default setting (not the fixed 1/200) Av will give you fill in flash. The camera assumes that overall the scene is sufficiently lit but provides a bit of extra light (using flash) for a foreground subject. In P mode the camera assumes the flash can illuminate the whole scene.

So the equivalent of what a P&S camera typically calls slow sync is what you get in Av mode, and normal flash mode is what you get with P mode.

Besides, I have a G6 and a 450D, and the behavior of P and Av on the G6 and the 450D is the same, so it seems the P&S and the EOS teams do talk to each other...

You are right that there is an obscure hidden menu to get the fixed 1/200 shutter speed in Av with flash, but unless you really look for it you will not encounter that. So most users just get the P and Av behavior they are used to on their G camera.
ARSPR said:
Weth said:
... If you
want just straight flash photography, use P (it will increase shutter
speed if there is enough light but will not go below 1/60)...
Click to expand...
But unless I'm completly wrong then the flash is behaving as a
fill-in one.

I mean: in P the camera sets speed to 1/60 and then relies in flash
intensity to illuminate the scene. Of course, if you already had
enough available light then it fires at faster speeds, (the flash is
really not neaded). In this situation the flash is just a foreground
fill in flash (against a dark face in the shade or whatever).

But in Av (with slow syncro disabled, whatever name it has), the
camera fires at 1/200 and relies in flash intensity to illuminate the
scene. So in the same conditions, Av will use a more powerfull flash
burst than P, (and will get a darker background anyway).

So as I already told, it really seems that the camera allows the user
to actually select two different no-slow syncro speeds, Av with 1/200
and P with 1/60. But it's a pretty unfriendly and obscure way. I
still think that much better menus and options (PS-like) are possible.
Click to expand...
--
Slowly learning to use the 450D and and the Canon G6.
Public pictures at http://debra.zenfolio.com/ .
 
ARSPR said:
+ In manual mode you can also set flash exposure compensation (like
450d) or just flash intensity (from low to full). So if you are
expert enough, you can completly override the camera flash metering.
Why should a PS be better than an EOS?
Click to expand...
It's not. Your camera has Flash Exposure Compensation (page 79 of the manual). Have you read the manual yet?
ARSPR said:
Why the hell can't you directly make white balance from the center
spot in the frame like all PS cameras (or Nikon D60 BTW)? It's just
faster and easier.
Click to expand...
Not quite sure I understand. What exactly are you wanting to do here?

Cheers
HighPriest
 
highpriest said:
ARSPR said:
+ In manual mode you can also set flash exposure compensation (like
450d) or just flash intensity (from low to full). So if you are
expert enough, you can completly override the camera flash metering.
Why should a PS be better than an EOS?
Click to expand...
It's not. Your camera has Flash Exposure Compensation (page 79 of the
manual). Have you read the manual yet?
Click to expand...
Yes, sorry for my English.

I know that yI have flash exposure compensation. So I can set +1 stop (or whatever), and let the camera calculate which amount of flash it must fire to achieve it. BUT in G9, you can also directly this flash amount, (for highly advanced users nevertheless...).
highpriest said:
highpriest said:
Why the hell can't you directly make white balance from the center
spot in the frame like all PS cameras (or Nikon D60 BTW)? It's just
faster and easier.
Click to expand...
Not quite sure I understand. What exactly are you wanting to do here?
Click to expand...
Like in all PS:
+ Look for a white (or at least neutral grey) zone around the future picture.

+ Point to it and press "set WB from this area looking" (in whichever form you like). So there's no need for an intermediate auxiliar photo.
highpriest said:
Cheers
HighPriest
Click to expand...
Like I said, I think quite some usage tweaking can be learned from any PS Axxx or Gx series. And it's a pity because they are built by the same company :(
 
I agree that canon could have a better user interface in their DSLR cameras. There are many features that I would like to see as well. On camera GPS tagging, on camera depth of field calculator, on camera intervalometer, on camera HDR, etc...

However, I believe they have a general philosophy to keep the interface as simple as possible, while giving the user direct and un-fettered control over all features.

Everything you have asked for can be done, you just have to do it a different way.

Good luck!

--
CityLights
http://www.pbase.com/citylights
.
 
I have a G9 (and had the original G1) and I will tell you that the way this camera handles flash annoys many on the P & S forum--they want it LIKE the DSLR LOL. Personally, I rarely use flash (did use it extensively for commercial shooting, but prefer available light for personal shooting). My choice is definitely for my own input rather than the way the G9 handles flash. BTW, I moved from a G9 to a used 400D/XTI for my small camera (my main camera is a 5D along with a converted to IR 10D) and much prefer shooting with it than a small sensor camera for many reasons. If I shot with flash, that would certainly be a big reason.

Its generally accepted that flash shooting works best with M (though using Av for fill flash is fine--and P just sets for 'acceptable' flash). This article (actually series of articles) is pretty much the definitive work on EOS ETTL flash photography. Reading it would help you better understand how to use flash with a Canon DSLR.
http://photonotes.org/articles/eos-flash/
Diane
--
Diane B
http://www.pbase.com/picnic/galleries
 
I figured this might be a good place to post this question. I recently took the jump from g9 to 450D as well and noticed one feature missing: the software based ND filter on the g9 is not on the 450D. Does this mean I will need to go out and purchase an actual ND filter for my lenses now?
 
zombieball said:
I figured this might be a good place to post this question. I
recently took the jump from g9 to 450D as well and noticed one
feature missing: the software based ND filter on the g9 is not on the
450D. Does this mean I will need to go out and purchase an actual ND
filter for my lenses now?
Click to expand...
What were you using it for?
--
Misha
 
Mostly for shooting water, trying to get longer exposure times in bright daylight. I was out taking pictures of a waterfall this past weekend with the 450D where I found even at lowest ISO, smallest aperture, I still couldn't get a long enough exposure time. This lead to me wishing I had an ND filter. (I only had the 18-55 IS kit lens with me at the time, and I think the smalles aperture it would let me go is f22? Don't quote me on this though).

So I guess my only option is to purchase a physical one? No software equivalent on the 450D I am missing?
misha said:
zombieball said:
I figured this might be a good place to post this question. I
recently took the jump from g9 to 450D as well and noticed one
feature missing: the software based ND filter on the g9 is not on the
450D. Does this mean I will need to go out and purchase an actual ND
filter for my lenses now?
Click to expand...
What were you using it for?
--
Misha
Click to expand...
 
The ND filter on the G9 is NOT software! It's an actual ND filter built into the camera.

The G series is (as far as I know) the only camera series to do so.

Unfortunately, yes you now have to buy the ND filter (and UV protection and Circ Pol, etc. etc) if you want the same affect. Also note that using F13 and smaller (to F22) will give you softer and softer pictures due to diffraction.

Richard P.
zombieball said:
So I guess my only option is to purchase a physical one? No software
equivalent on the 450D I am missing?
misha said:
zombieball said:
I figured this might be a good place to post this question. I
recently took the jump from g9 to 450D as well and noticed one
feature missing: the software based ND filter on the g9 is not on the
450D. Does this mean I will need to go out and purchase an actual ND
filter for my lenses now?
Click to expand...
What were you using it for?
--
Misha
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
--
You can (finally) see some of my pictures at:
http://www.pbase.com/morty/
http://www.photosig.com/go/users/view?id=239439

Cano n 3 0 0 D with very simple lensjes
 
I do not believe the ND filter option is software based on the G series. It is a physical filter inside the camera put in the light path. No DSLR I know of has an option like that.

ND filters and Polarizer filters are not easily replicated in software and thus remain essential filters IMO in the digital world.

I would purchase an ND filter so you can continue to take the silky moving water pictures and control depth of field better in bright sunlight. The ND0.9 filter will give you the 3 stop decrease that is equivalent to the G series camera. ($25 for Hoya multicoated ND0.9)
 
Oh MY GOD! After some more tests with my brand new EOS, I've discovered that it REALLY suffers focusing issues...

With my first shots I thought it just was that the camera suffered some madness in automatic focus point selection (see the very first post). But after some more tests with the central point AF, I've noticed that the focus is not precise at all.

In fact live view contrast focus is precise (but terribly slow) but phase detection sucks at least at 55mm. Sometimes it focuses really fine but sometimes it misses a lot.

I don't know if this is caused by:
+ Defective camera.
+ Defective EF-S 18-55 IS lenses.

+ Inevitable extremely poor precision at 55mm focus length due slow lenses (f5.6).

But the results are awful. Tomorrow I'm going to Canon service to ask. But I'm on the verge of returning the camera ...

(I've made the final tests with the camera set on a table, (not a tripod but nearly), focusing at a newspaper, (so lots of lines, letters and good contrast for phase-detection focus in any direction), set at about 3 m. Good overall lighting. I pre focus manually to just 0,25m and then I let the camera AF work. Even with several refocus half-pressing shutter, the achieved focus, (the lens drive doesn't run), is sometimes really poor).
 
As already said, ND filter in G9 is physical. You can hear it being engaged or turned out!!

Quite a nice touch in this camera...
 
Try the battery test on a tripod and post.

Also - doesn't your camera move when sitting on a table and autofocus initiates? When I do that, since the end of the lens is turning, my camera moves.
 
Well i'll be darned. I always thought this was some type of software feature (although I never really understood how it worked). The fact that it is a physical filter is actually quite impressive! I guess it never occured to me that "click" sound when you turn it on was a physical element engaging.

Thanks for the info folks.
 
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