FF vs APS-C: being serious...

You can crop down to 12MP and get an image that has approximately the
same focal length multiplier and depth of field as an APS-C sensor
would produce.
Take a KM 7D and take a shot. Take A700 and take the same shot, but
adjusting the focal length.
Adjusting the focal length ? They're both APS-C ... why would you adjust anything ?
Compare A700's 12MP cropped to 6MP to the
shot made with KM7D... You'll see the difference. Interpolation isn't
linear, it's not going to work that way:(
So cropped APS-C is worse than full APS-C. What does that have to do with cropped FF ?
I think it's a psychological thing. An APS-C 24MP sensors would let
you do the same.
No it wouldn't. Cropping 25MP FF to 12MP APS-C gives you exactly what you'd get with a 12MP APS-C sensor (using the same sensor technology). Give or take a few pixels. Cropping APS-C gives you what you'd get with an even smaller sensor.
The current APS-C 12MP sensor's ok too. We've lived
with 6 and 4MP fine, nobody complained. And once 24MP becomes a
standard (just like 10-12MP is now), it won't seem "cropable" any
more...
The people who buy a 24MP FF camera may very well think that 12MP pictures are insufficient (though I imagine a good part of their justification for 24MP is for occasional cropping). People who buy a 24MP FF camera also probably will buy the tele lenses they need and not whine about expensive lenses after spending $3K-5K on a camera, or at least won't need to crop all the way down to APS-C size.

But the OP is arguing that 12MP APS-C is sufficient while 24MP FF doesn't give him the tele reach he needs and therefore FF is a worse choice. (Frankly, none of the OPs arguments make any sense and it comes across as someone with gear envy trying to rationalize not being able to afford a camera he doesn't need anyway). But that's just plain wrong. Whatever lens your using as your longest tele on 12MP APS-C can give you the same results on 24MP FF by cropping. Same DOF, same noise (give or take a bit; pixel densities & sensor technology differ slightly), same "sweet spot" of the lens ...
  • Dennis
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Gallery at http://kingofthebeasts.smugmug.com
 
---

Why all the fuss about APS-C x FF size sensors? The right thing is to be able to choose the best for what you need!

It was exhaustively discussed ( and mostly accepted ) in every related forum that the FF sensor being larger in area than an APS-C sensor will allow larger sized photodiodes ( "pixels" ), which capture more light leading to higher signal-to-noise ratios ( considering an equal to or larger pixel to pixel gap as an equivalent in MP APS-C sensor ). A higher pixel count than the APS-C is also possible ( leading to higher resolution ) and as long as the pixel density is kept the same as on the APS-C sensor or lower, the signal-to-noise ratio will still be kept equal or lower ( of course that's a simplistic explanation ).

It is also well known that FF sensors are much more expensive to manufacture than the APS-C size.

Therefore, it's a matter of choice and/or necessity: you pay more for FF to have a higher resolution suitable for very large prints with better details, or if you don't need very large prints and/or minute details teh APS-C will provide you with excellent images for a lower cost!
Just as simple as that!

I for one don't really see a need for FF for my work as a Pro who does events, landscapes, portraits, etc, though never print anything larger than maybe 50x60 cm. The A700 is more than enough for that.

Of course there are circuntances where an FF would be a good value, for example when there is a may need to drastically crop an image to zoom in a detail due to not having a more powerfull zoom lens when shooting. What has to be considered is if those moments justify the investment in an FF camera and larger zooms, etc. Not for me right now.
Anyway, with the "A900" A-mount users will be able to choose!

... Lucas

... Lucas
--
You're welcome to: http://www.pbase.com/lucaspix/root

Always having fun with photography ...

 
The people who buy a 24MP FF camera may very well think that 12MP
pictures are insufficient (though I imagine a good part of their
justification for 24MP is for occasional cropping). People who buy a
24MP FF camera also probably will buy the tele lenses they need and
not whine about expensive lenses after spending $3K-5K on a camera,
or at least won't need to crop all the way down to APS-C size.

But the OP is arguing that 12MP APS-C is sufficient while 24MP FF
doesn't give him the tele reach he needs and therefore FF is a worse
choice. (Frankly, none of the OPs arguments make any sense and it
comes across as someone with gear envy trying to rationalize not
being able to afford a camera he doesn't need anyway). But that's
just plain wrong. Whatever lens your using as your longest tele on
12MP APS-C can give you the same results on 24MP FF by cropping.
Same DOF, same noise (give or take a bit; pixel densities & sensor
technology differ slightly), same "sweet spot" of the lens ...
1) I think You're overly agressive. I have no "gear envy" and in fact, my remark about "A900 release being a bummer" was a plain joke.

2) On the technology side: cropping in Photoshop (or whatever is to your liking) gets you not even close to shooting with a different size sensor. It's not mathematical as you (and some others) are trying to claim.

3) I have no problem at all about the fact FF is coming (and essentially is out there). I'm, however, having my doubts about it becoming a "mainstream technology". It seems more likely that it fits better in some sort of mid-range between APS-C DSLRs and Hasselbad.

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Omne solum forti patria est.
 
Dude you're comparing apples to oranges. To do what you mentioned
above you're fighting the quality of the glass more than the sensor.
You're croping APS-C. With a FF sensor you can crop out the APS-C
sized center of the image and you'll have similar or even identical
results to what you would have with an APS-C sensor.
And all that because of the "FF magic"? I seriously doubt that. Just thinking about the overall noise thrown at the sensor's center because of the larger projection surface makes me think that the artificial cropping down we're talking about is nowhere near a shot taken with an APS-C.
Again APS-C is not FF its the cropped or smaller sensor. Full Frame
is APS.
And? Who gives a flying dingy what's it called? ;)))

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Omne solum forti patria est.
 
I'm sorry, but I am not following you. Is it your contention that
the A900 will not have SSS? Because if it is, you are wrong. Sony
has already made it clear that it will, when the sensor was
officially announced.
I'm having serious doubts about A900 having SSS as efficient as the one A700/A300/A350 etc. There are several reasons:

1) Computing power needed to manage a larger sensor stabilization is incremented non-linearly.

2) Certain focal lengths are simply not going to be stabilized. And if in case of A700 we're talking about macro (where, btw, it's a good idea to shut SSS off because otherwise it might create motion blur that isn't there) on A900 we might be talking about tele range above a certain point.

My doubts are not based on actual information from Sony. I simply have a pretty good idea as to what SSS is made of and can imagine the complications that Sony faces making it work on an FF sensor. If they make it work as well as it works on A700, they're going to be my heroes. Seriously. (Especially if the battery drain stays reasonable).

--

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Omne solum forti patria est.
 
First off, these two models we speak of (a700 and a900) were first
previewed TOGETHER at the same show over a year and a half ago...
Come on, 't was a joke;) I don't consider it a "bummer" at all and I'm a very happy about A900 coming around. For at least two reasons:

1) A900 is going to give Sony a-world the right range of products to make it a serious player. Since it's "my system" I'm generally happy.

2) A900 will make more glass thrown at the market which will certainly make prices go a bit down. And that's nothing to be sad about too;)
Actually, 36x24mm = 864mm^2; 25x16mm = 400mm^2, so in actuality,
there is more than 100% additional square area, which is the correct
way to compare two sensors, which are in essence, 2 dimensional.
Comparing 1 dimension at a time is not going to get us very far.
I did my school math too;) The 1.5 ratio does not refer to the actual surface and we both know that;)
You are completely missing the point here. You have higher quality
pixels because of the lower pixel density. You expand your dynamic
range, ability to shoot at higher ISOs, and very much likely the
per-pixel sharpness AND color accuracy. By your logic, the smallest
most densely packed sensors should produce the best image quality.
Odd we haven't seen any $8000 compact digital cameras with 20 MP?
Again, this is all theoretical, and for all we know, Sony botched the
a900 sensor and it could be junk compared to the 12mp CMOS in the
a700 or 10mp CCD in the a100, but I highly doubt it...
If lower pixel density is such a goody, than why, for heavens sake, does my 7D have lower noise tolerance and lower IQ than A700 that has twice as much pixel density?
Less useful to who? You...? That doesn't have much effect on my
photography now does it? Personally, I'm not a huge ultra-wide
shooter myself either, but I will sure enjoy using my 24-70 as it was
intended...a wide to long standard lens. Also, my 70-200 lenses will
now become what they were intended to be too, portrait/short tele
lenses. You are forgetting a couple of things. This high-resolution
full frame sensor we are talking about is the best of both
worlds...24mp is a huge file that can be very useful for certain
types of photography. Having such high resolution on a FF sensor
allows you to crop that sensor down to match an APS-C sized sensor,
and still have a whopping 10mp of image data!
As I explained above, "cropping down" is nowhere close "actually shooting that way". For once because the center pixels are going to be "polluted" by the side light penetrating the chamber. So "the best of both worlds" is not really going to pass a reality check.
The 12mp FF sensors in
the D700 and D3 don't have much resolution left once you crop to
APS-C, something around 6mp, which is still quite useful (after all,
I started my DSLR phase with the wonderful and out-dated 7D).
Me too, btw;)
Also, high quality ultra-wide angle lenses are very
expensive...especially if one considers wide apertures important.
They're expensive, but not as expensive as telies. And are less useful for most users than ultra-wide.
Who said we were getting rid of SSS, and why the comment about
high-ISO noise reduction? You will need less of it on the new sensor
because of the lower noise (in theory). That, or you will be able to
shoot a stop, maybe even two, faster due to the new sensor.
Not really. Let's see: noise's a natural thing. It is a part of light. The bigger the surface of projection, the more noise there is. The lower the pixel density is, less probable it is to manage noise while there's actually less noise caught per pixel. Remember that our pixels are still much-much-much larger than photons
What's
more professional about FF? The fact that almost all professional
level lenses were (and still are) built for a FF sensor. This means
that a 16-35/2.8 lens is an ultra-wide lens, not a wide-normal lens.
The 24-70 becomes what it was designed for, a wide-short tele (or
long-normal if you prefer). The 70-200 becomes a perfect portrait
lens.
It's not at all true. The lenses nowadays come in different shapes and ranges and are very varied. Unlike Nikon and Canon, Sony does not keep two lens types to distinguish between FF and APS-C "specific" lenses, but rather has lenses that are only useful with an APS-C DSLR. It's true (mainly for historical reasons) that 24-70 is a common lens type, but that is mainly because it's usually a remake of a 20 year old lens. Which makes a lot of sense, yes, but it does not mean 16-105 (hey, doesn't that sound familiar?) isn't just as common. (I'd actually prefer 16-50 that would be much better balanced, but that's another thing). If anything, the lenses must grow - not the sensors.
I'm not saying that there is not a use for APS-C. I like my a700s a
lot, but I don't think they will get much use once the a900 gets
here. I may even sell one to help lessen the blow. For some things
like birding, APS-C has great advantages. Take that 50-500 lens, and
wow, you can get some great shots. Take out the 400/4.5 with 1.4x TC
and wow again... a 900mm-e/4 doesn't exist in FF...but wait, just
crop your 24mp image down to 10mp, and voila, you've got it back
again!
That last part is, I'm afraid, dreaming;)))

I'm not actually saying FF is useless or bad. I'm just saying that for most of us it is as useful as the 51MP Hasselbad. Or some other ultraheavy and very expensive gear. That's all.

--

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Omne solum forti patria est.
 
agreed. essentially, the only negatives of fullframe are cost and
lens size.
What I typed this morning remains true. The above are the main issues with fullframe (there is a bit of an issue with sensor reflection as well.) No matter what you may think, cropping a 24MP FF sensor to APS-C size, which can be done in camera, like the Nikon D3, or in the computer, is the same as shooting with an APS-C camera that is around 10MP. The "tele" advantage of APS-C is imaginative if the FF has enough pixels to cover it like the A900 will.

Sensor size and technology are what determines high ISO characteristics, not pixels size, and the A900 will have an advantage over the A700 in this regardl, and that, along with wider angles, are the reason FF is exciting to most.
 
Indeed, and that's why I never heard it - kind of a dummy argument.
Indeed.
Larger sensor doesn't mean larger files etc. - more MP means larger
files etc. It's true though that the larger mirror makes the
mechanics of higher FPS more difficult to construct. But I think the
10 FPS of the D3 should suffice even for professional use.
Ok, I didn't express my thoughts very well. Larger as in "larger surface + more pixels". Actually the surface increase does make things slower, but that's a marginal slowdown.
BTW your arguments are arguments for a small sensor low MP camera in
general. So why bother with an DSLR?
I donno... May be because one can't participate in this forum without having one? ;))) No, my argument is that FF is not a mainstream technology.
What is important in this regard is not pixel density but resolution.
And 24 MP is more resolution than 12 MP. The larger the sensor, the
more light gathered, which means more signal, which is a good thing.
More signal is good thing, that's true. But resolution on FF 24MP is actually lower than on APS-C 12MP. And that's true also. Which's kind of ok, but not "the best of both worlds" or anything alike.
Only if you think you need more reach (and I don't need it). Besides,
as other posters have pointed out, you can always crop. And since the
pixel density of the 24 MP sensor will roughly the same as that of
the A700, you will get at least the same reach and IQ. As to your
belief that a crop looks different than a "full size" image. That is
only true for a given sensor size, where higher pixel density may
lead to higher per pixel noise.
1) Cropping isn't going to work as the pixels in the center are going to be polluted by the light filling the chamber and projected onto the "cropped out" pixels.

2) Higher pixel density means more signal. More signal means better noise detection. It's not like the distance between physical pixels changes the amount of noise attracted by every single pixel. The noise's there anyways, but the higher the density, the liklier it is that noise is detected and eliminated.
Come one, that's a lame argument so why spend so much time discussing
it? The pros that want FF want it because they want the better IQ FF
delivers. MF delivers even better IQ but currently is too
expensive/slow etc.
That's something people say. I don't actually believe it. And in fact, of all the pros I know only one uses FF. For particular jobs. And rarely. He says it's a dusty and heavy;))))
Sony confirmed that the A900 will have SSS, so you seem to be wrong
in this regard. And if you want a smaller sensor - for the
foreseeable future APS-C won't go away. There also is the Fourthirds
standard - an even smaller sensor. Why didn't you buy an Olympus?
I have serious doubts SSS is going to be as efficient on FF as it is on APS-C. There are a lot of technical reasons for that.

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Omne solum forti patria est.
 
huh, Zoomstein, your posts have so many errors in reasoning that I really don't know where I should start correcting. Sorry, but that is no logic, its pseudo-logic.

Just think it over again yourself - I think you got lost in comparing sensors with different sizes and number of pixels, e.g. you mixed pixel density per image vs. pixel density per sensor area, you didn't consider different sizes of individual pixels as a result of same pixel numbers on different sensor formats etc etc. Before comparing different sensors, make sure that you consider all relevant parameters in a structured way, and not hopping from one parameter set to a different one.

Actually, what I found most fascinating is the theory that the noisy light itself would cause low IQ. This theory is worth the next Nobel prize in physics ;-)

Don't be mad with me for joking a bit, but your reasoning is really amusing ;-)

Best greatings from a humble physicist,
Uwe

--
http://www.fotocommunity.de/pc/pc/mypics/802313
 
Sensor size has nothing to do with data throughput. In fact I think
the sony a350 13.5MP RAW files are larger than the Canon 5D RAW
files. I also think the Canon 40D 14bit files are the same size or
larger than the 5D with the 40D being 3 fewer MP and a smaller sensor.
Larger sensor with more pixels does become slower. I did not express this idea very well though.
High iso is better on FF, just compare even the old Canon 5D against
the a350.
the "old Canon 5D" has processing power that can not be compared to A350. It also weighs a bit more and needs much more power... If we compare A350 and KM D5 though, turns out A350 (with higher pixel density) is better in keeping the noise away.
It depends on what you want to do with your photographs. Are you
trying to always shoot something far away? If so aps-c is a good
idea. But if you can properly composed your shots on a FF camera,
then FF will have no disadvantage for having larger pixels.
Shooting something further away is quite common. What I'm saying is that I'm not sure I'm ready to let go on the tele-side for the sake of questionable IQ increase. And I also am at saying that FF is not a mainstream technology.
Why aren't you using a 18x P&S camera then? It's so much more
portable and lighter than an SLR and big zoom lens, right?
There are a few reasons why I don't use P&S:

1) I have trouble with automatic modes. They're too smart for me. I can't take photos the way camera's programmed;)

2) P&S are too easy to lose or leave somewhere. And, if you get to put it on a table somewhere, you might end up taking someone else's photos home because there's so many of those P&S and they look so much alike;)

3) P&S usually come without bags. I like having a nice camera bag and I like it full. I have three different bags and I like switching between them. I actually am thinking I got into this photography thing mainly because I liked the bags. ;)

4) I don't like staring at LCDs. I've got enough of that cr*p while working anyways;)

5) I like switching lenses. It gives me a purpose. It also lets you have that excellent excuse: "Sorry, but I havn't got the right lens to take a picture of you with that tree on the background" ;)))
There is more agrument on this item, but there is good artistic
benefit to a larger sensor such as a FF one because of the quality of
the blurred background compared to even an aps-c or olympus dSLR
background not to mention the huge DOF that a compact digital camera
produces. You can get shallow DOF on an aps-c camera, but it is much
easier to do on a FF/film SLR. Plus there are many people who expect
the professionals should be using the best/most high end equipment
instead of equipment that all consumers own.
Ok. The DOF thing passes as another PRO for FF. That's something I didn't think about and it makes a lot of sense. Lenses are getting better, that's true, but FF is certainly a great help in getting things done.

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Omne solum forti patria est.
 
How exactly is cropping in post-processing NOT like using a smaller sensor?

The pixel pitch of the Alpha 900 is slightly larger than the pixel pitch of the Alpha 700. The per-pixel noise levels are not going to be any higher. The per-pixel sharpness is not going to be lower (at least towards the centre).

There is no difference in depth of field between the image produced by a 24x16mm sensor - vs - an image originally produced by a 36x24mm sensor that is then cropped down to 24x16mm.

Your comparison between the KM 7D and Alpha 700 was rather missing the point, which is that the Alpha 700 and Alpha 900 have photosites which are relatively similar in size. The Alpha 700's photosites are much smaller than the 7D's, hence why the per-pixel sharpness and noise levels are worse.
--
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http://two-truths.deviantart.com/gallery/
 
What is important in this regard is not pixel density but resolution.
And 24 MP is more resolution than 12 MP. The larger the sensor, the
more light gathered, which means more signal, which is a good thing.
More signal is good thing, that's true. But resolution on FF 24MP is
actually lower than on APS-C 12MP.
No, it's not. Resolution is measured in MP. Higher MP = more resolution (assuming that the lens isn't a limiting factor). And 24 is definitely larger than 12 ;-)
Only if you think you need more reach (and I don't need it). Besides,
as other posters have pointed out, you can always crop. And since the
pixel density of the 24 MP sensor will roughly the same as that of
the A700, you will get at least the same reach and IQ. As to your
belief that a crop looks different than a "full size" image. That is
only true for a given sensor size, where higher pixel density may
lead to higher per pixel noise.
1) Cropping isn't going to work as the pixels in the center are going
to be polluted by the light filling the chamber and projected onto
the "cropped out" pixels.
??? That's the first time I heard of such "pollution" - can you post examples? I never noticed it.
2) Higher pixel density means more signal.
According to your logic a 6 MP P&S sensor gathers more signal than a 6 MP APS-C sensor. A larger sensor means more signal, more megapixels means more signal (spatial signal), pixel density taken alone doesn't mean a lot, you've got to relate it to the sensor size.
More signal means better noise detection. It's not like the distance between
physical pixels changes the amount of noise attracted by every single pixel. The
noise's there anyways, but the higher the density, the liklier it is
that noise is detected and eliminated.
Higher pixel density means smaller pixels which means less signal (light) per pixel. Since the read out noise (let's leave aside the photon shot noise) is independent of pixel size, a higher pixel density gives you more per pixel noise (not necessarily more image noise though)
Come one, that's a lame argument so why spend so much time discussing
it? The pros that want FF want it because they want the better IQ FF
delivers. MF delivers even better IQ but currently is too
expensive/slow etc.
That's something people say. I don't actually believe it. And in
fact, of all the pros I know only one uses FF. For particular jobs.
And rarely. He says it's a dusty and heavy;))))
Take a look at the samples from the D3 or 1DsMkIII or better still from a MF back. If you want a better IQ you need larger sensors. That doesn't mean that the IQ from smaller sensors doesn't suffice for a lot of (professional) applications.
Sony confirmed that the A900 will have SSS, so you seem to be wrong
in this regard. And if you want a smaller sensor - for the
foreseeable future APS-C won't go away. There also is the Fourthirds
standard - an even smaller sensor. Why didn't you buy an Olympus?
I have serious doubts SSS is going to be as efficient on FF as it is
on APS-C. There are a lot of technical reasons for that.
We'll see.
 
If you are going to explain why, please get it right. "Larger sensor
means better IQ" is for the same pixel count. That is why everyone
drools over the output from the FF 12MP cameras on the market. Those
big, fat light collecting pixels produce lower noise, higher IQ
images.
Lower noise? That's not exactly true actually. Let me try to explain:

1) The noise's out there and it is inevitable. Film or sensor - the
light's noisy. That's something we can't avoid or complain about.
Uh...noisy light? Film "noise" was due to the grain size of the silver halide cystals for a particular film speed. Digital "noise" is caused by signal-to-noise raito in the conversion of the energy of the photons striking the photosite into a signal and the amplification of said signal. Larger photosites receive more photons in a given period of time and produce a stronger, cleaner signal requiring less amplification and therefore less noise than a smaller photosite (with everything else being equal).

I'll let others step in on the rest, but please, don't confuse physics with politics. Just saying something with conviction doesn't make it true.

--

Dave Pierce

http://www.pptphoto.com
http://www.pbase.com/pierce324

The early bird may get the worm...
but the second mouse gets the cheese!
 
How exactly is cropping in post-processing NOT like using a smaller
sensor?
Oh, come on, it's really simple. Light does not follow direct lines in geometrical terms. If I have a chamber with a large sensor, the middle part of it is polluted with light "intended" for the projection on the sides. To get an APS-C result on FF You should physically cover the "extra" sensor with something the light can not penetrate.
The pixel pitch of the Alpha 900 is slightly larger than the pixel
pitch of the Alpha 700. The per-pixel noise levels are not going to
be any higher. The per-pixel sharpness is not going to be lower (at
least towards the centre).
Per-pixel noise levels do not depend from density, but from the size of the chamber. And in that sense, actually, there's "per sensor noise" that results in signal distortion on a pixel level. More surface = more noise. Less pixel density = less probability to cope with it.
There is no difference in depth of field between the image produced
by a 24x16mm sensor - vs - an image originally produced by a 36x24mm
sensor that is then cropped down to 24x16mm.
There's difference in DOF between FF and APS-C.
Your comparison between the KM 7D and Alpha 700 was rather missing
the point, which is that the Alpha 700 and Alpha 900 have photosites
which are relatively similar in size. The Alpha 700's photosites are
much smaller than the 7D's, hence why the per-pixel sharpness and
noise levels are worse.
So more pixel density does facilitate noise filtering? Is that what you're trying to say?

--

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Omne solum forti patria est.
 
If you are going to explain why, please get it right. "Larger sensor
means better IQ" is for the same pixel count. That is why everyone
drools over the output from the FF 12MP cameras on the market. Those
big, fat light collecting pixels produce lower noise, higher IQ
images.
Lower noise? That's not exactly true actually. Let me try to explain:

1) The noise's out there and it is inevitable. Film or sensor - the
light's noisy. That's something we can't avoid or complain about.
Uh...noisy light? Film "noise" was due to the grain size of the
silver halide cystals for a particular film speed. Digital "noise" is
caused by signal-to-noise raito in the conversion of the energy of
the photons striking the photosite into a signal and the
amplification of said signal. Larger photosites receive more photons
in a given period of time and produce a stronger, cleaner signal
requiring less amplification and therefore less noise than a smaller
photosite (with everything else being equal).

I'll let others step in on the rest, but please, don't confuse
physics with politics. Just saying something with conviction doesn't
make it true.
Thank goodness someone finally said something about this one. As I was reading the thread the number of mistaken "facts" or statements by various people was astounding, but this one sort of took the cake (i.e., topped the others).

--
Mark Van Bergh
 
How exactly is cropping in post-processing NOT like using a smaller
sensor?
Oh, come on, it's really simple. Light does not follow direct lines
in geometrical terms. If I have a chamber with a large sensor, the
middle part of it is polluted with light "intended" for the
projection on the sides. To get an APS-C result on FF You should
physically cover the "extra" sensor with something the light can not
penetrate.
The pixel pitch of the Alpha 900 is slightly larger than the pixel
pitch of the Alpha 700. The per-pixel noise levels are not going to
be any higher. The per-pixel sharpness is not going to be lower (at
least towards the centre).
Per-pixel noise levels do not depend from density, but from the size
of the chamber. And in that sense, actually, there's "per sensor
noise" that results in signal distortion on a pixel level. More
surface = more noise. Less pixel density = less probability to cope
with it.
There is no difference in depth of field between the image produced
by a 24x16mm sensor - vs - an image originally produced by a 36x24mm
sensor that is then cropped down to 24x16mm.
There's difference in DOF between FF and APS-C.
Your comparison between the KM 7D and Alpha 700 was rather missing
the point, which is that the Alpha 700 and Alpha 900 have photosites
which are relatively similar in size. The Alpha 700's photosites are
much smaller than the 7D's, hence why the per-pixel sharpness and
noise levels are worse.
So more pixel density does facilitate noise filtering? Is that what
you're trying to say?
I do not mean this in a personal way, but some of your statements have been so far off base that it is beyond amusing. That you stand by many of these statements, including most of the ones above, while laudable for your sense of believing in what you believe, unfortunately indicates that it won't really do much good for others to try to demonstrate the errors in your statements. Thus, for everyone's sake, my suggestion is to simply drop this thread and move on to something else.

--
Mark Van Bergh
 
I'm having serious doubts about A900 having SSS as efficient as the
one A700/A300/A350 etc. There are several reasons:

1) Computing power needed to manage a larger sensor stabilization is
incremented non-linearly.
Computing power is the same. 2 degrees of rotation is still 2 degrees and your hands don't know whether there is a FF or APS-C sensor in there, so your period of motion still occupies the same time span. Computing power for processing 24MP is much higher of course, and that is the reason some are hoping for a low-res A900 counterpart which we may or may not see. Computing for SSS specifically though is no different. Power drain from the more powerful motors MAY be an issue, but then we aren't talking about a change of mass in lbs here, we are talking about a difference in just a couple of grams for a FF compared to an APC-S slice of silicone. Yes there is a possibility of lower battery life as a result, we will have to wait and see.
2) Certain focal lengths are simply not going to be stabilized. And
if in case of A700 we're talking about macro (where, btw, it's a good
idea to shut SSS off because otherwise it might create motion blur
that isn't there) on A900 we might be talking about tele range above
a certain point.
Why wouldn't they be? This was argued continuously before Sony announced that their FF chip would be stabilized just like their APS-C units. This misconception I think stems from the incorrect notion that an image circle only covers the sensor exactly, when in fact someone else on here pointed out that the smallest FF lens image circle is some 6mm wider than the 35mm diagonal. Someone else pointed to Sony literature that showed that SSS rarely moves more than 2mm in a given direction so there is still room to spare. Until proven otherwise, I don't buy the conjecture that SSS can't work with certain focal lengths anywhere up to those that simply can't be hand-held anymore. If this were true, SSS would also NOT work with the APS-C lenses like the 16-80z, kit lens and several third party lenses that have an image circle 'designed for APS'.

As for your comments on the earlier post about noise, I don't think you fully understand its cause, nor the physics involved. You said that 'light will always have noise'. Not true, the noise in an image comes from the circuitry of the sensor itself, and the electro-magnetic interference that it causes. The reason that FF sensors come out with less noise is not that there is greater gap in the Bayer pattern and therefor more noise falls through those gaps. No, FF noise resistance comes from the fact that the theoretically bigger light wells (partly related to the density you talk about) are able to collect more light, and therefor generate a much stronger signal than the smaller pixels of smaller formats. The stronger the source signal, the less susceptible to EMF interference it will be en-route through the processing architecture. Yes it is true that future generations of technology will be able to further reduce the noise generated, as well as clean it out of the visible image. The thing to keep in mind is that any new technology that benefits APS-C and smaller formats, will also benefit FF. The benefits will be magnified even more so on FF because of its lower noise susceptibility to begin with.

As for you concern of lower overall resolution, you are partly right. Plenty here have been concerned that many good lenses might start showing poor results when subjected to that level of pixel count. As you demonstrated though, the actual lines per sensor height and width will not be significantly different from the A700. Therefor, I don't think we will see a marked performance difference between the center performance of any given lens on the A900 in comparison to the A700, at least in so far as resolution limits are concerned. The corners on some lenses, being used for the first time on digital, might show some weaknesses we did not know of before. Just the same though, there will be no lacking in detail if all else is assumed to be true.

But then the full frame might actually get more detail, despite the similarities in density. The first of this comes from the idea that FF develops more dynamic range. Because of the limited light collecting due to small pixels, APS-C sensors clip to light and dark faster than their more light collecting FF equivalents. The greater detail in the shadows and highlights that a smaller sensor would clip, while not being absolute detail, none-the-less enhances the overall detail captured in the image as a whole.

Now I don't disagree with your opinion that there are cons to FF as well. As with all things in life, there are tradeoffs to everything. I would never agree with the idea that FF is better just because it is bigger, with the noted exception that bigger light wells collect more light, and therefor are better. That is just straight out physics. With that being said though, there are some who need the advantages of FF, and I for one am glad to see Sony providing it. I could be one of those who needs it if I were to choose to start making my living from photography. If that ever becomes the case, I am glad that Sony will be allowing me the option unlike some of the other manufacturers who moved to smaller formats (4/3rds) or who are unlikely to have a FF any time soon, if ever. No, Sony isn't as diverse nor as complete in their system as Canon or Nikon yet, but they seem the most likely of the "littler guys" to become so in the foreseeable future.

--
-Dylan Anderson
 
Real working pros, with the budget to do so, own both APS-C and FF gear if that's what it takes to get the shot. They even own those MF digital cameras which, according to the OP, must perform worse than APS-C because they put 24MP in an even larger sensor ;-)

These threads in which non-pros seem to grind their teeth or wring their hands over whether a single camera will do it all need a separate forum methinks. Simply put, a Sony using pro will likely buy the FF for what it does best and keep his APS-C cameras around for what they do best, if that is going to meet the requirements for the type of photography he/she does.

Now to anyone who responds to my point by saying "But I'm not really a pro". EXACTLY! The A900 isn't being introduced so fanboys can brag. It's being introduced so pros have an alternative to CaNikon. I seriously doubt anyone in the design team stopped a planning meeting to discuss the erroneous conclusions of the OP regarding image quality of the sensor or format limitations: they already KNOW about such things.
 

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