Zoo requires ME to pay a license fee for MY photos! (pics)

Excellent photos BTW!

Paul Richman said:

... You make some good points.

The Zoo offers special events for photographers, and on the event
ticket and on their website for the events, they display the
following text:

"Photos taken at Denver Zoo are for your personal use only (including
recreational use and photo contests). Commercial photography (for
profit-making like stock photography) is prohibited without written
permission from our Marketing department. Commercial photography fees
start at $250 per image."

Being a good citizen, I contacted them about this, and am currently
discussing it with them.
--
Paul Richman
http://PixelsByPaul.COM

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kudos to you for being honest and talking with them about the use of your pics.

however, you knew before you paid your entrance fee what the "rules" are/were regarding use of the pics. you went ahead and paid the fee and took your pics, can't really argue now that you should be able to use the pics outside of the "rules" that were plainly stated.

and there are many public places that prohibit you from comining in photographing whatever they have on display and then going home and selling it. I don't know for sure, but most likely by paying your admission fee and entering their grounds you enter into a "contract" with them regarding the rules and regulations they've set forth (fair or not).

randyYork said:

http://www.asmp.org/commerce/legal/releases/
You will need a Property Release, they own the animals and you are taking
pictures of their property and selling it for profit. And you are actually on
there property taking those pictures.

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The fact they own the animals is not the issue or even relevant. The relevant part of that link says:

"Privacy and defamation cannot apply to objects (although defamation can apply to business entities). Things — cars, buildings, statuary, costumes, animals, etc. — don’t have legal rights. But the people who are closely associated with those objects do have rights and could claim that your photo of their property has caused harm. This is a tricky area of law, with few precedents to guide us. We discuss property releases in more detail on a separate page. In general, though, we advocate following the cautious rule, “When in doubt, try to get a release.”"

If you go to the separate page ( http://www.asmp.org/commerce/legal/releases/AboutPropertyRel.php ), it states in part "ASMP has never seen a statute or a legal case that requires a release for property." This of course does not mean that people have never asserted the right or paid for a release, but the absence of cases does suggest its a weak issue if you are the owner of property.

They then give good advice, which is they recommend to get one to avoid the issue.

In real life, this is not always possible or practicable, and in some cases like this one, I agree with the another poster that it would have been better not to contact them after the fact.

Taking a picture of an animal at a zoo and publishing it or reproducing, whether for profit or otherwise, will not violate any right of the animal (it has none) nor any "property" right of the owner of the animal (because the two theories discussed in the above link are not likely to apply to an animal other than a companion animal).

As others have correctly noted, however, if the policy of the zoo was a contract, and assuming that receipt of payment for reproductions of those images is a commercial use (others have pointed out it may not be in this case) then there could be liability for breach of contract.

--
Mike Oliver

Greg Zillgitt said:

Since the Denver Zoo is a public institution funded by the people
through taxes (some involuntary), fees and memberships, it seems to
me that it shouldn't be allowed to restrict photography (other than
for safety reasons). The zoo belongs to the people and that includes
you.

If it were a private institution then it would be another kettle of
fish.

--
http://www.pbase.com/gzillgi
http://www.pbase.com/gzillgi/wedding_portrait

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Following on those same lines, shouldn't the people be entitled to any profits you make? It wouldn't be fair for you to profit off my tax dollars =P

--
Ramen is how I afford my glass
http://www.blindmike.com

... taken either in the wild or in "any zoo".

If you're not planning on doing post card to be sold in this zoo or the front page of National Geographic, don't bother...

EASY999 said:

When you go to a national state park which is not a privately owned
business they dont tell you pay up for any pictures taken their and
sold. Zoos that are not privately owned have to be the same way.

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National state parks do have policies regarding commercial shoots (which may or may not apply to the shots you're taking and selling). So do cities and state beaches and parks. If you don't abide by them, then at the very least they are within their right to ask you to leave.

There are issues in commercial photography that hobbyists and amateurs may not run across. That doesn't negate their existence.

--
Ramen is how I afford my glass
http://www.blindmike.com

I'm sorry maybe i'm off here but take the pictures sell them and don't tell the zoo they are not going to know or even have the time to look and see if someone is selling pictures of the animals at their zoo.they are a zoo and part of their funding comes form the government.They should not ask for any money for your pics since they did not take the pictures.They are not going to know its their bird unless you take the ouc with a sign of the zoo in the background.You can also tell the as soon as they stop taking taxpayers money for their revenue you will start paying them a photo fee.

EASY999 said:

I'm sorry maybe i'm off here but take the pictures sell them and
don't tell the zoo they are not going to know or even have the time
to look and see if someone is selling pictures of the animals at
their zoo.they are a zoo and part of their funding comes form the
government.They should not ask for any money for your pics since they
did not take the pictures.They are not going to know its their bird
unless you take the ouc with a sign of the zoo in the background.You
can also tell the as soon as they stop taking taxpayers money for
their revenue you will start paying them a photo fee.

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So let me get this straight. The zoo has a policy in place and you're advocating a way to circumvent it because you don't agree with it on moral grounds?

--
Ramen is how I afford my glass
http://www.blindmike.com

This is from the Bronx zoo web site, I'm sure most zoo's have this same thing on their web page.

Non-commercial photography for personal use is allowed, but tripods are restricted in several exhibits, and at the discretion of zoo staff. Commercial photography and filming requests must go through the Communications Department. Please send your request to [email protected].
--
Looking at the World, One photo at a time

EASY999 said:

I'm sorry maybe i'm off here but take the pictures sell them and
don't tell the zoo they are not going to know or even have the time
to look and see if someone is selling pictures of the animals at
their zoo.they are a zoo and part of their funding comes form the
government.

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The government funds zoos. So can I assume that they fund museums, art galleries, photo galleries, etc also?

EASY999 said:

They should not ask for any money for your pics since they
did not take the pictures.They are not going to know its their bird
unless you take the ouc with a sign of the zoo in the background.

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So if I took your camera and didn't tell you, I can keep it right? Maybe I can also come into your house and take pictures and sell them too without bothering to pay you? This could be fun if I can think of the right thing I'd rather not pay for.

EASY999 said:

You can also tell the as soon as they stop taking taxpayers money for
their revenue you will start paying them a photo fee.

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Just for the record, they take non-taxpayers money too...

Any business can ask for what ever they would like to. Major League Baseball is one of my favorites. Now, if you'd like to get righteous, complain that the National Parks might start doing the same thing. I'd complain then since National Parks are not suppose to be a business. Zoos, however, are a business...

--
Tony

http://www.pbase.com/a5m/ http://AnthonyMedici.naturescapes.net/

if you take my camera without my permission its called theft which is a crime.if i take a picture of a bird from the zoo in question and sell it its not a crime its a civil matter that i guarantee they are not going to pursue in civil court.It would be very hard for them to prove in civil court that you were aware that you could not sell pictures taken at the zoo just because it stated it in a entrance ticket.Its not the same as having a signed contract which would still be a civil case and not a crime (like taking my camera)but would be easier for them to prove in court you had knowledge.

Paul Richman said:

The Denver Zoo's policy is to require their written permission for
commercial use of photos taken at the zoo. This seems wrong-headed
to me. Is it legal? Do they have such legal rights? Do you know of
any other zoo with such a policy?

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Our Detroit Zoo has had a policy like that for years.

http://www.detroitzoo.org/Visitors/Photo_Policy/Photo_Policy/

It goes on for fourteen numbered rules...

Their zoophiles routinely accost photographers who they perceive as looking "too professional".

If I want a nice day of shooting at the zoo, I drive an hour to Toledo.

Paul Richman said:

I'm currently negotiating fees with them. Their normal fee is $250
PER PHOTO for me to have the right to sell MY zoo images in my
gallery. YIKES!

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Your zoo is a bargain, compared to outs.

$450 for every two hours of shooting. 4 weeks advance notice required before shooting.

$450 per photo, if you decide to sell photos that you shot as a "non commercial" photographer.

This is the work of our moronic zoo director, who lied about having a Ph.D. in order to land this job, hands out contracts to his friends, and closed the Belle Isle Aquarium, the nation's oldest fresh water aquarium.

--
Rahon Klavanian 1912-2008.

Armenian genocide survivor, amazing cook, scrabble master, and loving grandmother. You will be missed.

Ciao! Joseph

http://www.swissarmyfork.com

I didn't know it could get that bad.

Make his lie public and he'll likely loose his job. Then things might get better.
--
Paul Richman
http://PixelsByPaul.COM

Are you a lawyer?
--
Paul Richman
http://PixelsByPaul.COM

I see. Screw the world, do whatever you dam well want no matter the rules? You are advocating anarchy and disrespect for the law and the social customs we adhere to in a civilized society. Grow up and learn the ropes. If this zoo has such a policy, it is our obligation to honor their terms and conditions.
--
BigPixel / Hawaii

Great shots!!

It is so sad that this world turns into a money machine.

It would be very interesting that if US government or Califonia State government to start collecting loyalty fee from Ansel Adams and other artists from their pictures or paintings!!
--
tinmanrrtx

First, I just Googled this topic, and one zoo website says that they not only actively pursue unlicensed use of zoo animals in published images, but they state that handlers can and will recognize their animals.

One zoo says that you must submit a maximum resolution, digital copy of your image for their use, and receive their approval, before you publish an image. They have the right to unlimited use of your image, with or without crediting you. And, you have to pay to use the image. One wanted a "donation" of 25% of RETAIL sales. Some want $450 per image. Some want which ever is GREATER.

In so far as the zoo is private, which most are, they control access and set the rules. In most places, however, there is no valid contract unless there is actually a contract. The little, tiny print on the back of a ticket is probably not an enforceable contract, especially if they tear the ticket in half at the gate.

From a legal reference on the web:

"Does the statement contain definite terms regarding subject matter? Is the subject matter identified, are parties identified, is the price set, are quantities determined, and is time for performance stated? There should be enough information contained in the statement that, if needed, a court would be able to enforce the contract or determine the damages."

If you ask for, and receive, special access or privilege, it is different.

EASY999 said:

if you take my camera without my permission its called theft which is
a crime.if i take a picture of a bird from the zoo in question and
sell it its not a crime its a civil matter that i guarantee they are
not going to pursue in civil court.It would be very hard for them to
prove in civil court that you were aware that you could not sell
pictures taken at the zoo just because it stated it in a entrance
ticket.Its not the same as having a signed contract which would still
be a civil case and not a crime (like taking my camera)but would be
easier for them to prove in court you had knowledge.

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Well by your logic because you never sign a contract whichs states its illegal to steal from another person this its ok to steal. The contract was presented to you the moment you paid for your Zoo ticket. Once you handed them the fees to enter the park they hand you a ticket. Once you accepting the ticket you have entered into a contract to abid by the parks rules and policies.

In fact, in most cases the ticket they give you to enter the park is not even yours, as the park retains the ownership of that ticket so they can legally revoke your ticket and ask you to leave.

http://nickmjr.smugmug.com/
Nick M

Well our local zoo does not charge. And I have a season ticket anyway. They are happy as long as it results in positive promotion for them. My zoo images are for sale at Getty.

HM

Private use is unlimited, commercial not (according to their homepage).

Best wishes