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FF is the future

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Arun Arangil

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Last year I asked why we cant have live preview on SLRs and nearly got shot. I wished to see a live histogram then.

This year i am predicting that in 2 years there would be so many versions of FF bodies that you would be asking

'Why would you want a cropped body over a FF when FF are selling

Questions:

1. Who all agrees with me?
2. Would you invest in EF-S lens in future?

--
  • Arun
 
Actually, I am pretty sure that that's true. Just look at the last 4 or 5 years, DSLR's have come a long way.

That's the reason why I am trying to stay away from EF-S lenses, at least anything expensive.

--
Equipment in Profile
 
Arun Arangil said:
1. Who all agrees with me?
2. Would you invest in EF-S lens in future?

--
Click to expand...
I'd agree that FF will grow rapidly in market share, but I think there will always be a cheap consumer end of the market for crop sensor.

2/ Yes, but only the EF-S 10-22 (as it's the best/only way to get superwide on a crop)
 
money no object, even if 5D cost the same as XSI, i will get the latter, simply because it's smaller lighter does everything i want to do (actually do more than 5D can do), high ISO just fine

also there are great EF-S lens like 60/2.8, tokina 11-16/2.8 that are lighter/cheaper/better IQ than FF counterparts, and we can use FF lens if we want

in terms of DOF yes FF is shallower for portraits but that's a negative for macro shots where EF-S has advantage

give me a reason
 
ns66 said:
money no object, even if 5D cost the same as XSI, i will get the
latter, simply because it's smaller lighter does everything i want to
do (actually do more than 5D can do), high ISO just fine

also there are great EF-S lens like 60/2.8, tokina 11-16/2.8 that are
lighter/cheaper/better IQ than FF counterparts, and we can use FF
lens if we want

in terms of DOF yes FF is shallower for portraits but that's a
negative for macro shots where EF-S has advantage

give me a reason
Click to expand...
I used to think like you until I tried 5D.
 
Arun Arangil said:
Last year I asked why we cant have live preview on SLRs and nearly
got shot. I wished to see a live histogram then.

This year i am predicting that in 2 years there would be so many
versions of FF bodies that you would be asking

'Why would you want a cropped body over a FF when FF are selling

Questions:

1. Who all agrees with me?
2. Would you invest in EF-S lens in future?

--
  • Arun
Click to expand...
Crop, gear I am happy with:

C 400D 556g
C 10-22 385g
Sigma 17-70 455g
C 55-250 IS 390g

1786g fine for me traveling, I don't want more weight, it's heavy enough.

FF
5D 895g
C 16-35 640g

C 28 - 135 IS 530 g
or 24 - 105 IS 670g
C 70-300 IS 630 g (still not getting the 400mm of the crop)
100-400 1380 g if I want 400mm!

at least 2.695 kg...

So, I don't see any advantage. I am no pro that needs the ultimate dynamic range, or ultra-thin DOF.

I am too old to lug heavy weights around all day on trips, the less the better.

I thought the 17/18- 55/70 range was not covered well in the crop sector for Canon (unless you go for the 17-55 IS). However, it looks like the FF offering is nothing to write home about either, with the consumer lenses not being great either, instead having to go probably to an L to get decent IQ.

So, that rules out FF for me, FF is dead.

I had FF film, but with a 24mm prime, 50mm prime, and 70-210mm.

That was around 2kg, and with all extras like bag, flash etc., this was the max I wanted to carry around on trips.

I am happy with my new gear that covers more FOV, has flexible ISO, and has the same IQ as the slides I took in the past, but weighs less.

I am sure 90% of the people fall into my category. Even for "pros" or serious amateurs, why are there zillions of questions on this forum "which lens should I choose for my trip?" why not take all? Ah, small problem, weight.....

Both formats are here to stay, with 90% going into crop - my guess.
 
Don't wait until the future becomes the present.

If I can't have a FF, I'll be satisfied with a crop. That I have both now might matter. But it's the IQ that I find different, not the FOV being a limitation.

What Thee worry?

--
...Bob, NYC

Galleries: http://www.pbase.com/btullis

 
amobi said:
ns66 said:
money no object, even if 5D cost the same as XSI, i will get the
latter, simply because it's smaller lighter does everything i want to
do (actually do more than 5D can do), high ISO just fine

also there are great EF-S lens like 60/2.8, tokina 11-16/2.8 that are
lighter/cheaper/better IQ than FF counterparts, and we can use FF
lens if we want

in terms of DOF yes FF is shallower for portraits but that's a
negative for macro shots where EF-S has advantage

give me a reason
Click to expand...
I used to think like you until I tried 5D.
Click to expand...
but what lenses do you have? To get the advantage of the 5D, you
probably have a specialized set of lenses, that most consumers wouldn't bother
to get (primes, L lenses). I doubt you have a 28 - xx consumer zoom for

your 5D, since a 18-55 IS would do the same, perhaps even a better job on a 400D.
 
I have no strong feelings about FF or cropped sensors either way. They're both good at what they do... but why does some person who's getting their first dSLR want FF (or even know what FF is or care)?

There's two factors really - price & technology

Price

Smaller sensors = less cost to produce and lower price points for consumers. This is a good thing for the manufacturers and the consumers. FF is great if you're printing large, but the average consumer doesn't give a rat's behind about large prints. Simply put, it's not a factor in the entry to mid-level offerings.

Technology

As tech advances, pixel densities are going to continue to increase. This will mean that even the cropped sensors will gain larger resolutions. While FF sensors will obviously scale at a similar rate, this will be a non-issue for the consumer market that doesn't care about a $3k dSLR body.

Simply put, there's no real advantage for companies to go "all FF". If it was a big issue, then P&S market would be dead - whereas it's clearly not.

People want to take pictures - and to many (and possibly most), the magic that happens inside the camera is insignificant as long as it looks nice on their computer.

The entry-level consumer market is only getting bigger - and the cropped sensor is a perfect match in terms of price and value for this market segment.
 
With a crop camera, my lovely 70-200 f/4L IS becomes a 112-320. You can't get that kind of reach AND quality AND speed out of a FF camera without spending big bucks on less useful primes and hauling around a lot of weight.

My prediction is in 2 generations, the 60D will arrive at $999 and the 5D successor will be $1800. Or less. In either case, until Canon comes out with a 100-300 f/4 (or f/2.8) L IS, I'm sticking with croppers.

 
JackM said:
With a crop camera, my lovely 70-200 f/4L IS becomes a 112-320. You
can't get that kind of reach AND quality AND speed out of a FF camera
without spending big bucks on less useful primes and hauling around a
lot of weight.

My prediction is in 2 generations, the 60D will arrive at $999 and
the 5D successor will be $1800. Or less. In either case, until
Canon comes out with a 100-300 f/4 (or f/2.8) L IS, I'm sticking with
croppers.
Click to expand...
I hope you are right Jack, but get ready for the FF war in future. Who knows with FF canon might improvise on their L lens.
JackM said:
Click to expand...
--
  • Arun
 
Well... My 70-300DO is on my 5D stop by stop equalent in image quality to your 70-200 because you forgot to take into account that the equalent lens to your 70-200 is 100-300 f/5.6, and guess what ... Canon got that one in at least 2 current lenses.

--
KEG
 
Are you saying that f/4 becomes f/5.6 on a crop body? News to me. I find that hard to believe.
 
Funny all this FF vs. crop war. FF has more potential for IQ. Medium format has even more potential for image IQ. Image IQ is not the only reason to buy a camera.

I find it very funny that nobody "predicts" the end of P&S.

The crop format will not disappear because there's a big market for it and Canon & co want this market. They want it so bad they just introduced a new line of crop dslr without updating the old 5D.

--
Canon 400D Canon 17-85mm IS, Sigma 30mm f/1.4
http://www.flickr.com/photos/bogdanmoisuc/
 
submagination said:
I have no strong feelings about FF or cropped sensors either way.
They're both good at what they do... but why does some person who's
getting their first dSLR want FF (or even know what FF is or care)?

There's two factors really - price & technology

Price
Smaller sensors = less cost to produce and lower price points for
consumers. This is a good thing for the manufacturers and the
consumers. FF is great if you're printing large, but the average
consumer doesn't give a rat's behind about large prints. Simply put,
it's not a factor in the entry to mid-level offerings.

Technology
As tech advances, pixel densities are going to continue to increase.
This will mean that even the cropped sensors will gain larger
resolutions. While FF sensors will obviously scale at a similar rate,
this will be a non-issue for the consumer market that doesn't care
about a $3k dSLR body.
Click to expand...
I have a feeling that to sustain higher pixel count, FF is the best option. Technology have limits to ISO/Noise/Sensor size.
submagination said:
Simply put, there's no real advantage for companies to go "all FF".
If it was a big issue, then P&S market would be dead - whereas it's
clearly not.
Click to expand...
Well, given a choice, i would prefer to use an SLR to P&S, but that's just me and i respect your opinion.
submagination said:
People want to take pictures - and to many (and possibly most), the
magic that happens inside the camera is insignificant as long as it
looks nice on their computer.

The entry-level consumer market is only getting bigger - and the
cropped sensor is a perfect match in terms of price and value for
this market segment.
Click to expand...
--
  • Arun
 
Lenses lose a lot less of their resale value than bodies, so generally speaking your lens 'investment' is safe, if that's how you see them. If you buy EF-s, you can sell when not needed - there'll still be a crop market for them, for a long time. If you find EF lenses you can live with now, for when transitioning to affordable FF's in the future, then all the better.

And that's not even considering that future FF's may have a built in crop feature, to accommodate both types of lenses, as well as more options for output (thinking sRAW at the moment).

So again, I suggest "What thee worry?". :)

--
...Bob, NYC

Galleries: http://www.pbase.com/btullis

 
I like FF...but I like my 40D too!

They are used for different purposes!

With the FF body, I got a wider view...the 24mm is actually 24.

With the 1.6x crop 40D, I got a longer view. I use this for sports games. I also use this for graduation ceremonies when the stadium is huge.

I got specific lenses for both bodies. Most of my wide lenses go with the 1Ds3 (except the 10-22), the long primes go with the 40D. And in some cases, some lenses are used for both bodies.

So Canon please don't kill the crop bodies.

Now if Canon produces a FF body with in camera cropping, then I don't need the 40D.

Danny Tuason

--
'What, me worry?' - Alfred E. Neuman

'Don't worry, be happy' - Bobby McFerrin

'Tawa lang!' - Danny Tuason
('Just smile!')

 
Bogdan_M said:
Funny all this FF vs. crop war. FF has more potential for IQ. Medium
format has even more potential for image IQ. Image IQ is not the only
reason to buy a camera.

I find it very funny that nobody "predicts" the end of P&S.
Click to expand...
I doubt it, size n weight [still and will] matter in future.
Bogdan_M said:
The crop format will not disappear because there's a big market for
it and Canon & co want this market. They want it so bad they just
introduced a new line of crop dslr without updating the old 5D.
Click to expand...
Now that might be true presently. In future it might be the reverse.
Bogdan_M said:
--
Canon 400D Canon 17-85mm IS, Sigma 30mm f/1.4
http://www.flickr.com/photos/bogdanmoisuc/
Click to expand...
--
  • Arun
 
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