Getting the true colors from your camera

Hey Tom,

I tried your approach, and you are 100% correct. The colors are a
little duller but probably more accurate. My question is: I use
Qimage to print my pictures and I was wondering if you have ever
used this program. I am assuming that since I am embedding AdobeRGB
to the image that I don't need to assign a profile in Qimage since
it will read in the AdobeRGB profile. Does this sound right?
It sounds right, but I've never used Qimage. It is new enough that I would "guess" it to be ICC aware.
Also, by going into control panel > > display settings > > and color
management aren't I assigning your profile as my monitor profile?
Is this what I want to do? Don't I need to calibrate my monitor and
create a profile or should I use your's?
Danger Will Robinson (assuming you are old enough to remember the refferance). Do not use any camera specific profile (mine or Pop Photo or a manufacturer's) as your monitor setting. These profiles are ment to be attached (by you or the camera) to the camera files, to tell the computer and monitor and printer what the camera files are and how to deal with them.

See separate posting "Tom tries to be a color guru"

--
Tom Ferguson
http://www.ferguson-photo-design.com
F707 Studio Info Page:
http://www.pipeline.com/~tomf2468/temp1.html
 
Hey Tom,

I tried your approach, and you are 100% correct. The colors are a
little duller but probably more accurate. My question is: I use
Qimage to print my pictures and I was wondering if you have ever
used this program. I am assuming that since I am embedding AdobeRGB
to the image that I don't need to assign a profile in Qimage since
it will read in the AdobeRGB profile. Does this sound right?
It sounds right, but I've never used Qimage. It is new enough that
I would "guess" it to be ICC aware.
Also, by going into control panel > > display settings > > and color
management aren't I assigning your profile as my monitor profile?
Is this what I want to do? Don't I need to calibrate my monitor and
create a profile or should I use your's?
Danger Will Robinson (assuming you are old enough to remember the
refferance). Do not use any camera specific profile (mine or Pop
Photo or a manufacturer's) as your monitor setting. These profiles
are ment to be attached (by you or the camera) to the camera files,
to tell the computer and monitor and printer what the camera files
are and how to deal with them.

See separate posting "Tom tries to be a color guru"

--
Tom Ferguson
http://www.ferguson-photo-design.com
F707 Studio Info Page:
http://www.pipeline.com/~tomf2468/temp1.html
Tom: I have set my Sony monitor to Sony color default as it should be (not sRGB), Adobe PS Elements and my HP 1220C printer to sRGB.

My work space and printer space are therefore set to sRGB and this setting has made a great improvement to the printed image, thanks to you.

By the way, how did you know that the F707 color profile is sRGB? All the information about current digital camers does say that in gereral that their color profile is sRGB. Couldn't find it in Sony information.
Richard Cooper
 
Tom, isn't the PIM convertion done corresponding to the white balance setting in the shot? I suppose PIM does more than color space convertion, according to epson, the white balance setting and the lighting condition is also recorded in the PIM header by the camera, and I think the PIM import process is done with correspond to this settings, making the output look more natural.
All under discussion (my profile, the Pop Photo profile and PIM)
assign an ICC profile (tag the image). They all play by the same
rules. Any profile is made under one light, and is "limited" by the
cameras ability to accurately switch to a differant white balance.
PIM has no advantage (or disadvantage) here.
 
Color management confuses and defeats the VAST majority of its users. There are very good (guru) users out there with good websites. My favorites are Andrew Rodney's http://digitaldog.net/ and Bruce Fraser's http://www.creativepro.com/author/home/40.html I am FAR behind these guys in color knowledge! But, I've always felt the subject needed a better "intro course" than is out there. It is so complicated and with so many "exceptions", it is really hard to find the basics for the exceptions. So, here is my attempt at a "BASIC SIMPLIFIED BASIC" intro to color management:

Somewhere in the 1980's Apple came up with a program called "Colorsync". This allowed hardware devices to tell each other how they handle color and to "play well together". The IBM/Microsoft world first ignored this, then liscened it but implemented it half heartedly. This is much of the "Mac is better than IBM for photography" talk. In reality (and I'm a die hard Mac owner), the IBM world has finally caught on, and the two systems are now virtually equal in color management.

There are more colors in the world than we can see. There are more colors that we can see than can be recorder by a typical consumer or pro camera or scanner. There are often more colors our camera or scanner can record than our printers can print. How we handle these "out of gamut" colors is very important. Lets MAKE UP some numbers and situations: You have a camera that clips reds... sound familiar.. this camera when photographing a "red" object that is 94% red, 3% green, and 3% blue sees the object as pure red. It writes the data file as 255,0,0. If you open this file in a computer that is capable of presenting up to a 98% pure red, your file says 255,0,0 so the computer shows you its max, a 98% red. This is a 4% error, your red is now neon and you are unhappy. If the camera file could tell the computer.. "hey, I'm a little weak on reds, my max is 94%", then the computer could compensate and give you the best view (and print) possible. This giving of info is called "tagging" a file.

That is Colorsync's purpose. Apple's Colorsync is still the main component of color management (for Macs and PCs). It has two primary modes "device" and "space".

A device profile should be provided by the device's manufacturer and describes how the device handles color. Each hardware device that handles color (monitor, camera, printer, scanner) should have its own unique profile.

Colorspace is a bit harder to describe. All of these device and profiles have to "play together" in a "space". The space determines the outer limits of color. Just how pure a red can any device be allowed?? The two most common spaces are sRGB (standard for the web) and AdobeRGB (somewhat standard for printing). sRGB is a "smaller" space, it doesn't allow as saturate (bright) colors. Sounds bad, doesn't it? But, if you are trying to get 10 million folks with 10 million different monitors to see your pic, a limited color set is just the "ticket" to a degree of consistency.

There you have the simplest I can describe it. That is dangerous, there are SOOOOO many exceptions and footnotes in color management. They are important! Read Rodney or Fraser for a start on these. I'll mention a few that are specific issues with our Sonys.

First, there is one "colorspace" that is sometimes also a device profile. sRGB was designed as a "universal" profile. It was intended that lots of manufacturers would design there devices exactly to this profile, then folks could just use sRGB for all settings and things would be simple. Sounds good.... but very few manufacturers did it or did it well. Also, sRGB is a small space.

Second and most important: Sony ($%#@ them) doesn't provide a device profile. So, we are rather handicapped from the start. The F707 is "close to" sRGB so many folks use that. I just hate to spend $1000US for "close to right". When you have a device without a profile it creates "untagged" files. There is no info for colorsync to read, so it has to guess. How it guesses differs with different programs and preference settings. You are really in "the wild" with an untagged file.

Many programs will assign (tag) the colorspace in your preferences to any untagged (Sony) file. If this is the case with your program, it is best to assign sRGB as your preference. Other programs will warn you of untagged files and ask what to do. In this case you can assign sRGB or my profile or Pop Photo's. If you use my or Pop Photo's profile you are now in a non standard space. You may want to "convert" to a standard space if your printer requires this or you are mixing images from other sources.

This "Convert to profile" actually rewrites the data in your file. In the above example (weak reds) your 255,0,0, clipped red could get rewriten as a slightly impure red (perhaps 245,5,5) to compensate for the fact that colorsync has been told that is all the original device was capable of. You don't gain or loose anything here. You don't get a bigger set of colors by converting to a bigger space (notice your small space Sony red go rewriten as impure).

Remember that as with layers and judges, it is often the details that get you "off" or convicted. It is often the "details" that are needed to get your system running at 100%. I haven't even begun to talk about details here. I just hope that with some basics, the details will begin to make sense!

PIM tries to simplify and automate many of these choices. It's main limitation is that you have to have both a camera and printer that are compatable. If your work is going to a non PIM printer, you are once again "in the wild". It may be a great choice for the home user.
--
Tom Ferguson
http://www.ferguson-photo-design.com
F707 Studio Info Page:
http://www.pipeline.com/~tomf2468/temp1.html
 
Photoshop identified them all as the same profile. Perhaps it is doing something it isn't admitting to.... I just doubt it. I don't dislike PIM, I'm certainly not telling anyone to avoid it. It seems to do a real good job. If you only intend to stay in the PIM world (only use PIM cameras and printers) it is a great and easy system. Easy is one word no-one should use with Colorsync!
Tom, isn't the PIM convertion done corresponding to the white
balance setting in the shot? I suppose PIM does more than color
space convertion, according to epson, the white balance setting
and the lighting condition is also recorded in the PIM header by
the camera, and I think the PIM import process is done with
correspond to this settings, making the output look more natural.
--
Tom Ferguson
http://www.ferguson-photo-design.com
F707 Studio Info Page:
http://www.pipeline.com/~tomf2468/temp1.html
 
By the way, how did you know that the F707 color profile is sRGB?
All the information about current digital camers does say that in
gereral that their color profile is sRGB. Couldn't find it in Sony
information.
Perhaps I've overstated my "Knowledge". I "Know" this due to experiments and measurements. I've never seen an official word from Sony. Also I've always meant to say that the Sony F707 space is "close to" sRGB, not an exact match.
--
Tom Ferguson
http://www.ferguson-photo-design.com
F707 Studio Info Page:
http://www.pipeline.com/~tomf2468/temp1.html
 
Color management confuses and defeats the VAST majority of its
users. There are very good (guru) users out there with good
websites. My favorites are Andrew Rodney's http://digitaldog.net/
and Bruce Fraser's http://www.creativepro.com/author/home/40.html
Tom,

Thanks for posting the stuff you know. It's interesting and not a little daunting. I haven't printed a lot of images, so color matching hasn't been that important to me. I've used the BGABG method, (By Guess and By Golly), which has worked fairly well, meaning close enuff...

Your info has given me a better insight into what is required.

thanks!
 
I did a test using PIM and Tom's profile. Here is what I did and the results. First of all, I am printing with a Canon S9000 printer and using Qimage to print.

I took a picture and copied it so I had two copies to work with. The first one I assigned Tom's profile to it and then converted it to AdobeRGB and saved it. The second one I imported with PIM, converted to AdobeRGB and saved it.

I then printed both pictures out side by side and I have to say the results are very close but I think the PIM one is a little more accurate. This is my findings and I don't know if they are correct but wanted to share this with everyone.

A couple of questions though:

1 - Is there an easier way in Photoshop to do the conversion process? I have setup an action to do it but you still have to import one photo at a time.

2 - What is the best naming method to use? I am downloading my images using PIE from the memory stick and renaming them with the date and time. I know it is always best to save the original to come back to but is this necessary after converting it to AdobeRGB?

3 - Is the method above correct?
Color management confuses and defeats the VAST majority of its
users. There are very good (guru) users out there with good
websites. My favorites are Andrew Rodney's http://digitaldog.net/
and Bruce Fraser's http://www.creativepro.com/author/home/40.html
Tom,

Thanks for posting the stuff you know. It's interesting and not a
little daunting. I haven't printed a lot of images, so color
matching hasn't been that important to me. I've used the BGABG
method, (By Guess and By Golly), which has worked fairly well,
meaning close enuff...

Your info has given me a better insight into what is required.

thanks!
 
By the way, how did you know that the F707 color profile is sRGB?
All the information about current digital camers does say that in
gereral that their color profile is sRGB. Couldn't find it in Sony
information.
Perhaps I've overstated my "Knowledge". I "Know" this due to
experiments and measurements. I've never seen an official word from
Sony. Also I've always meant to say that the Sony F707 space is
"close to" sRGB, not an exact match.
--
Tom Ferguson
http://www.ferguson-photo-design.com
F707 Studio Info Page:
http://www.pipeline.com/~tomf2468/temp1.html
Tom: I just took a single image with my F707 and opened the image in my EXIF reader program.
The EXIF reader shows the color space assigned for this image is sRGB.

So, unless I have made a mistake, you can say that the F707 has a color space of sRGB. You'r right on.
Please advise.
Thanks
Richard Cooper
 
Thanks Tom. But you're really confusing me now. How come the PIM pluggin simply converts the color space? Since epson has claimed that every mode in the digital camera will have customised PIM settings, including color balance, saturation, gamma and contrast. That's why I said the PIM does more than color space convertion...........
Photoshop identified them all as the same profile. Perhaps it is
doing something it isn't admitting to.... I just doubt it. I don't
dislike PIM, I'm certainly not telling anyone to avoid it. It seems
to do a real good job. If you only intend to stay in the PIM world
(only use PIM cameras and printers) it is a great and easy system.
Easy is one word no-one should use with Colorsync!
 
Tom: I just took a single image with my F707 and opened the image
in my EXIF reader program.
The EXIF reader shows the color space assigned for this image is sRGB.
So, unless I have made a mistake, you can say that the F707 has a
color space of sRGB. You'r right on.
Interesting and odd. Both iView and Photoshop show my files (from the F707) as untagged. It has been common belief on STF that they are untagged. I wonder if your reader is assuming a prefferance setting when given a non tagged file, or if your camera is a lot newer than mine??
--
Tom Ferguson
http://www.ferguson-photo-design.com
F707 Studio Info Page:
http://www.pipeline.com/~tomf2468/temp1.html
 
You could be right. I'm not a PIM expert, just reporting what I saw with it a few months ago. It is also possible that the functions you speak of are part of the printer interface. I only worked with the plugin. As I said, PIM seems an impressive and simple color management solution for those using the complete (and only) PIM setup.
Photoshop identified them all as the same profile. Perhaps it is
doing something it isn't admitting to.... I just doubt it. I don't
dislike PIM, I'm certainly not telling anyone to avoid it. It seems
to do a real good job. If you only intend to stay in the PIM world
(only use PIM cameras and printers) it is a great and easy system.
Easy is one word no-one should use with Colorsync!
--
Tom Ferguson
http://www.ferguson-photo-design.com
F707 Studio Info Page:
http://www.pipeline.com/~tomf2468/temp1.html
 
Tom: I just took a single image with my F707 and opened the image
in my EXIF reader program.
The EXIF reader shows the color space assigned for this image is sRGB.
So, unless I have made a mistake, you can say that the F707 has a
color space of sRGB. You'r right on.
Interesting and odd. Both iView and Photoshop show my files (from
the F707) as untagged. It has been common belief on STF that they
are untagged. I wonder if your reader is assuming a prefferance
setting when given a non tagged file, or if your camera is a lot
newer than mine??
--
Tom Ferguson
http://www.ferguson-photo-design.com
F707 Studio Info Page:
http://www.pipeline.com/~tomf2468/temp1.html
Tom: Purchased my camera on 4/7/02 with s/n beginnig 1394xxx.
Have you tried an EXIF reader?

I think in one of your postings, you said open the image in your program to assing a color profile. I did not do this but read the image EXIF information with my camera connected to my pc so the image was read on the Sony memory stick.
I will be happy to send you the EXIF reader zip file that I am using..
Let me know.
Thanks
Richard
 
I did a test using PIM and Tom's profile. Here is what I did and
the results. First of all, I am printing with a Canon S9000 printer
and using Qimage to print.
I took a picture and copied it so I had two copies to work with.
The first one I assigned Tom's profile to it and then converted it
to AdobeRGB and saved it. The second one I imported with PIM,
converted to AdobeRGB and saved it.

I then printed both pictures out side by side and I have to say the
results are very close but I think the PIM one is a little more
accurate. This is my findings and I don't know if they are correct
but wanted to share this with everyone.
Sounds to me like you did everything right. Mine and PIM are close (in my tests). You camera or tastes may just be differant than mine.
A couple of questions though:
1 - Is there an easier way in Photoshop to do the conversion
process? I have setup an action to do it but you still have to
import one photo at a time.
Put all your files in one folder and use the Photoshop batch command, works great and is fast.
--
Tom Ferguson
http://www.ferguson-photo-design.com
F707 Studio Info Page:
http://www.pipeline.com/~tomf2468/temp1.html
 
When anyone offers me a "zip", I assume they are on a PC (and I'm on a MAC). So I suspect your program won't run on my machine...

But I can tell you that sRGB is not a "perfect" match for my F707. Causes too hot reds in particular. A common complaint here on STF, so I don't think I'm alone! That said, if I were Sony I would start tagging the files with sRGB. It is the best and safest "standard" colorspace for the F707. That is strictly speculation, your's is newer than mine.
Tom: I just took a single image with my F707 and opened the image
in my EXIF reader program.
The EXIF reader shows the color space assigned for this image is sRGB.
So, unless I have made a mistake, you can say that the F707 has a
color space of sRGB. You'r right on.
Interesting and odd. Both iView and Photoshop show my files (from
the F707) as untagged. It has been common belief on STF that they
are untagged. I wonder if your reader is assuming a prefferance
setting when given a non tagged file, or if your camera is a lot
newer than mine??
Tom: Purchased my camera on 4/7/02 with s/n beginnig 1394xxx.
Have you tried an EXIF reader?
I think in one of your postings, you said open the image in your
program to assing a color profile. I did not do this but read the
image EXIF information with my camera connected to my pc so the
image was read on the Sony memory stick.
I will be happy to send you the EXIF reader zip file that I am using..
Let me know.
--
Tom Ferguson
http://www.ferguson-photo-design.com
F707 Studio Info Page:
http://www.pipeline.com/~tomf2468/temp1.html
 
But I can tell you that sRGB is not a "perfect" match for my F707.
Causes too hot reds in particular. A common complaint here on STF,
so I don't think I'm alone! That said, if I were Sony I would start
tagging the files with sRGB. It is the best and safest "standard"
colorspace for the F707. That is strictly speculation, your's is
newer than mine.
Tom: I just took a single image with my F707 and opened the image
in my EXIF reader program.
The EXIF reader shows the color space assigned for this image is sRGB.
So, unless I have made a mistake, you can say that the F707 has a
color space of sRGB. You'r right on.
Interesting and odd. Both iView and Photoshop show my files (from
the F707) as untagged. It has been common belief on STF that they
are untagged. I wonder if your reader is assuming a prefferance
setting when given a non tagged file, or if your camera is a lot
newer than mine??
Tom: Purchased my camera on 4/7/02 with s/n beginnig 1394xxx.
Have you tried an EXIF reader?
I think in one of your postings, you said open the image in your
program to assing a color profile. I did not do this but read the
image EXIF information with my camera connected to my pc so the
image was read on the Sony memory stick.
I will be happy to send you the EXIF reader zip file that I am using..
Let me know.
--
Tom
http://www.ferguson-photo-design.com
F707 Studio Info Page:
http://www.pipeline.com/~tomf2468/temp1.html
Tom: Thanks for the help on this subjective color management topic. The EXIF reader I use can be found at http://www.takenet.or.jp/~ryuuji/minisoft/exifread/english
and there is a mac version.

My F707 shows a tagged image file sRGB, Adobe PS Elements work space is sRGB and my printer space is sRGB. The outupt pleases me and that's what counts.
Thanks
Richard
 
Tom: Thanks for the help on this subjective color management topic.
The EXIF reader I use can be found at
http://www.takenet.or.jp/~ryuuji/minisoft/exifread/english
and there is a mac version.
My F707 shows a tagged image file sRGB, Adobe PS Elements work
space is sRGB and my printer space is sRGB. The outupt pleases me
and that's what counts.
Absolutely, that is what counts :-) You EXIF viewer looks nice, more complete than mine. But, I could not find a Mac version anywhere.
--
Tom Ferguson
http://www.ferguson-photo-design.com
F707 Studio Info Page:
http://www.pipeline.com/~tomf2468/temp1.html
 
Tom: Thanks for the help on this subjective color management topic.
The EXIF reader I use can be found at
http://www.takenet.or.jp/~ryuuji/minisoft/exifread/english
and there is a mac version.
My F707 shows a tagged image file sRGB, Adobe PS Elements work
space is sRGB and my printer space is sRGB. The outupt pleases me
and that's what counts.
Absolutely, that is what counts :-) You EXIF viewer looks nice,
more complete than mine. But, I could not find a Mac version
anywhere.
--
Tom Ferguson
http://www.ferguson-photo-design.com
F707 Studio Info Page:
http://www.pipeline.com/~tomf2468/temp1.html
Tom: Try the search engine ALTAVISTA.com and enter EXIF or EXIF reader or EXIF mac. I tried EXIF reader and came up with several free download sites. I choice mine as I did not need mac but I was quite sure one of the sites I found a had a mac version.
Richard
 
Tom: Thanks for the help on this subjective color management topic.
The EXIF reader I use can be found at
http://www.takenet.or.jp/~ryuuji/minisoft/exifread/english
and there is a mac version.
My F707 shows a tagged image file sRGB, Adobe PS Elements work
space is sRGB and my printer space is sRGB. The outupt pleases me
and that's what counts.
Absolutely, that is what counts :-) You EXIF viewer looks nice,
more complete than mine. But, I could not find a Mac version
anywhere.
--
Tom Ferguson
http://www.ferguson-photo-design.com
F707 Studio Info Page:
http://www.pipeline.com/~tomf2468/temp1.html
Tom I forgot to include my EXIF information the last time I posted.
As I said, this EXIF information is directly from the Sony memory stick.

Is it really sRGB or what? Also note it shows the vendor (Sony) print matching information.
Richard

Filename : DSC00149.JPG
JFIF_APP1 : Exif
Main Infomation
ImageDescription :
Make : SONY
Model : CYBERSHOT
Orientation : left-hand side
XResolution : 72/1
YResolution : 72/1
ResolutionUnit : Inch
DateTime : 2002:06:10 18:08:25
YCbCrPositioning : co-sited
ExifInfoOffset : 218
Sub Information
ExposureTime : 1/125Sec
FNumber : F8.0
ExposureProgram : Unknown (0)
ISOSpeedRatings : 100
ExifVersion : 0210
DateTimeOriginal : 2002:06:10 18:08:25
DateTimeDigitized : 2002:06:10 18:08:25
ComponentConfiguration : YCbCr
CompressedBitsPerPixel : 2/1 (bit/pixel)
ExposureBiasValue : EV0.0
MaxApertureValue : F2.0
MeteringMode : Division
LightSource : Unidentified
Flash : Not fired
FocalLength : 9.70(mm)
MakerNote : SONY Format : 54Byte (Offset:600)
FlashPixVersion : 0100
ColorSpace : sRGB
ExifImageWidth : 2560
ExifImageHeight : 1920
ExifInteroperabilityOffset : 642
FileSource : DSC
SceneType : A directly photographed image
Vendor Original Information
PrintIM IFD : Offset:614 (28byte)
Print Image Matching Info
Unknown (0002) : 01 00 00 00
Unknown (0101) : 05 00 00 00
ExifR98
ExifR : R98
Version : 0100
Thumbnail Infomation
Compression : OLDJPEG
Make : SONY
Model : CYBERSHOT
Orientation : left-hand side
XResolution : 72/1
YResolution : 72/1
ResolutionUnit : Inch
DateTime : 2002:06:10 18:08:25
JPEGInterchangeFormat : 851
JPEGInterchangeFormatLength : 2419
 
Tom:

Great thread, and great explanation of the whole color management topic. I will jump in with another perspective that may or may not help.

As part of my gig, I do 4-color process, print design work (create graphic designs for brochures, etc.) this is what color management was maid for, it is complex, it is a major PITA. It requires that you calibrate everything. Taking readings from your monitor with a "spider" or similar device, taking readings from your scanning source, and readings from your output film (color separations). But, when it works it is a Godsend. Here’s why, the cost on these print jobs is often $25k and inconsistent color is something you can’t afford.

The general feeling has been if you can’t calibrate every device and you don’t know what you are doing, DON"T COLOR MANAGE. Here’s why, I did a job that had 3 shots of the same person doing different things on pages 2, 3 and 16. All of these had been converted to CMYK tiffs which means on a PC they look horrible on screen and often do not proof correctly on a jet printer, but they image fine for offset. Some helpful soul had tried to color correct 2 of the images using different color spaces, the result is that one time she had a magenta cast, the other a greenish cast and the third looked close to normal. These casts were very slight and if all three were slightly green it would have been a passable job, but as it was it was totally unacceptable.

Enter PIM, this is "color-management" for jet printers. It’s not complex. It produces a good product and it doesn’t require that people learn a system that they don’t need (for example, these color management systems compensate for dot-gain, etc. that only apply to the four-color process). The only drawback is, as you said, everything needs to be compatible with the PIM system (that is how they do their magic, they know the profile on everything, so everything and that takes the place of calibration).

I just wanted to give you another perspective on a very interesting thread, Tom.
-EL
 

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