Getting the true colors from your camera

[daniel91332]

This a simple way to get more accurate and natural colors from your Sony cameras that supports PIM. Simply use a PIM pluggin for photoshop, it can read addition color informations store in your images which is outside the sRGB range, making the true color informations store in your photos.

The pluggin is useful even if you aren't using a PIM printer or you are not printing the images out, it simply make you photos look better even on your screen. The pluggin is not doing any software adjustments, it is simply reading some special PIM informations stored which is not recognise by Photoshop and windows normally.

In fact, image softwares of Nikon and Minolta read the PIM infos too during their convertion, that's why their photos somtimes look more natural.
You can see more details here

http://www.dpreview.com/forums/read.aspforum=1009&message=2542339

http://www.printimagematching.com

 

[Tom Ferguson]

Using PIM this way will get you truer colors. What the PIM plugin does is to assign a specific colorspace to the image. Most F707 users use sRGB as a colorspace. While that is the best choice of the 'standard" colorspaces, it is not a true match. It is this mismatch that causes much of the "Sony color".

I find PIM rather slow for a program that simply tags a file (I often shot large quantities of files). I have a custom ICC profile available in my F707 studio page (see sig) that for my F707 and lights is more accurate than PIM (not a lot, but more accurate). One thing I've discovered from folks who have tried it, many folks truely like thier "Sony Colors"! Truth is duller than "Sony Colors" and thus some are disapointed ;-(

This a simple way to get more accurate and natural colors from your
Sony cameras that supports PIM. Simply use a PIM pluggin for
photoshop, it can read addition color informations store in your
images which is outside the sRGB range, making the true color
informations store in your photos.

The pluggin is useful even if you aren't using a PIM printer or you
are not printing the images out, it simply make you photos look
better even on your screen. The pluggin is not doing any software
adjustments, it is simply reading some special PIM informations
stored which is not recognise by Photoshop and windows normally.
SNIP>

--
Tom Ferguson
http://www.ferguson-photo-design.com
F707 Studio Info Page:
http://www.pipeline.com/~tomf2468/temp1.html

 

[Richard Cooper]

I find PIM rather slow for a program that simply tags a file (I
often shot large quantities of files). I have a custom ICC profile
available in my F707 studio page (see sig) that for my F707 and
lights is more accurate than PIM (not a lot, but more accurate).
One thing I've discovered from folks who have tried it, many folks
truely like thier "Sony Colors"! Truth is duller than "Sony Colors"
and thus some are disapointed ;-(

This a simple way to get more accurate and natural colors from your
Sony cameras that supports PIM. Simply use a PIM pluggin for
photoshop, it can read addition color informations store in your
images which is outside the sRGB range, making the true color
informations store in your photos.

The pluggin is useful even if you aren't using a PIM printer or you
are not printing the images out, it simply make you photos look
better even on your screen. The pluggin is not doing any software
adjustments, it is simply reading some special PIM informations
stored which is not recognise by Photoshop and windows normally.
SNIP>

--
Tom Ferguson
http://www.ferguson-photo-design.com
F707 Studio Info Page:
http://www.pipeline.com/~tomf2468/temp1.html

Tom: If I use Adobe RGB 1998 instead of sRGB and major differences?
Richard Cooper

 

[Ulysses]

One thing I've discovered from folks who have tried it, many folks
truely like thier "Sony Colors"! Truth is duller than "Sony Colors"
and thus some are disapointed ;-(

Pretty much the same reason that certain film brands and types are so popular even with professional photographers, going for a certain color or saturation level or mood. Coffee table books, photo magazines, etc.

--

Ulysses

 

[Tom Ferguson]

Haaa.... I can just see the ad copy.... If you love Fuji Velvia... You'll love the F707 ;-)

One thing I've discovered from folks who have tried it, many folks
truely like thier "Sony Colors"! Truth is duller than "Sony Colors"
and thus some are disapointed ;-(

Pretty much the same reason that certain film brands and types are
so popular even with professional photographers, going for a
certain color or saturation level or mood. Coffee table books,
photo magazines, etc.

--
Tom Ferguson
http://www.ferguson-photo-design.com
F707 Studio Info Page:
http://www.pipeline.com/~tomf2468/temp1.html

 

[Tom Ferguson]

Using PIM this way will get you truer colors. What the PIM plugin
does is to assign a specific colorspace to the image. Most F707
users use sRGB as a colorspace. While that is the best choice of
the 'standard" colorspaces

Tom: If I use Adobe RGB 1998 instead of sRGB and major differences?
Richard Cooper

I wish color management was standard enough that I could answer a question with a simple "yes or no"....... It really depends on what programs you have (and their version #), how your programs preferences are set, and what OS you are running (as well as how "fussy" you are). I'll explain how I work, and at the end of the post give you a simple test to see if this is needed for you.

In most cases, using AdobeRBG "directly" on F707 files is not a good idea. What you want in a perfect world is a camera file that is "tagged" with a colorspace that matches what that camera does. The F707 doesn't have a conventional "tag" in its file. Of the "standard" colorspaces, sRGB is closest to "matching" the F707. The larger Adobe RGB can cause "neon" reds and greens. What is important here is NOT the size of the colorspace (bigger is not nescisarily better), but that the size of your colorspace and the camera's match each other.

What the PIM plugin and my custom profile do is to "tag" the F707 file with a small color space that "fits" the F707. Once you have the file correctly tagged you can then "convert" your colorspace to anything you want.

Because I do a lot of print work, I do most of my RGB work in AdobeRGB. I have a Photoshop "action" that all of my F707 files for print work go through. It first "tags" the files, then "converts" them to AdobeRGB, then resets the DPI (without resampling) to something appropriate for print work. As I often have a hundred or more files to do at once, this is faster for me (and slightly more accurate) than the PIM plugin.

OK, how do you know if you need to go through these "hoops"?? These instructions will be for Photoshop 6, you will have to adjust for different programs. Set up (or find) a few shots with a variety of bright saturated (pure) reds and greens. These should be direct from camera tiffs or Jpgs, not files you have modified. Open the files in you program and see if there is a colorspace assigned to it by the program. Assign (or tag) sRGB to the file and save it as sRGB test.tif. Reopen you original camera file (the same one), assign or tag it with AdobeRGB and save it as AdobeRBG test.tif. I think you will see quite a difference in the bright reds and greens.

If like me you need/want to work in the larger AdobeRGB space (either for editing or matching other sources), then you need to go through my "hoops" of tagging the small color space (my custom, or PIM, or sRGB), then "converting" to the larger colorspace.

--
Tom Ferguson
http://www.ferguson-photo-design.com
F707 Studio Info Page:
http://www.pipeline.com/~tomf2468/temp1.html

 

[Ulysses]

Heheheheh...

There ya go!! )

Or their ad that will play before the Belmont Stakes:
"Run with unbridled excitement. Run with vivid color. Run with Sony."

Haaa.... I can just see the ad copy.... If you love Fuji Velvia...
You'll love the F707 ;-)

--

Ulysses

 

[Richard Cooper]

Using PIM this way will get you truer colors. What the PIM plugin
does is to assign a specific colorspace to the image. Most F707
users use sRGB as a colorspace. While that is the best choice of
the 'standard" colorspaces

Tom: If I use Adobe RGB 1998 instead of sRGB and major differences?
Richard Cooper

I wish color management was standard enough that I could answer a
question with a simple "yes or no"....... It really depends on what
programs you have (and their version #), how your programs
preferences are set, and what OS you are running (as well as how
"fussy" you are). I'll explain how I work, and at the end of the
post give you a simple test to see if this is needed for you.

In most cases, using AdobeRBG "directly" on F707 files is not a
good idea. What you want in a perfect world is a camera file that
is "tagged" with a colorspace that matches what that camera does.
The F707 doesn't have a conventional "tag" in its file. Of the
"standard" colorspaces, sRGB is closest to "matching" the F707. The
larger Adobe RGB can cause "neon" reds and greens. What is
important here is NOT the size of the colorspace (bigger is not
nescisarily better), but that the size of your colorspace and the
camera's match each other.

What the PIM plugin and my custom profile do is to "tag" the F707
file with a small color space that "fits" the F707. Once you have
the file correctly tagged you can then "convert" your colorspace to
anything you want.

Because I do a lot of print work, I do most of my RGB work in
AdobeRGB. I have a Photoshop "action" that all of my F707 files for
print work go through. It first "tags" the files, then "converts"
them to AdobeRGB, then resets the DPI (without resampling) to
something appropriate for print work. As I often have a hundred or
more files to do at once, this is faster for me (and slightly more
accurate) than the PIM plugin.

OK, how do you know if you need to go through these "hoops"?? These
instructions will be for Photoshop 6, you will have to adjust for
different programs. Set up (or find) a few shots with a variety of
bright saturated (pure) reds and greens. These should be direct
from camera tiffs or Jpgs, not files you have modified. Open the
files in you program and see if there is a colorspace assigned to
it by the program. Assign (or tag) sRGB to the file and save it as
sRGB test.tif. Reopen you original camera file (the same one),
assign or tag it with AdobeRGB and save it as AdobeRBG test.tif. I
think you will see quite a difference in the bright reds and greens.

If like me you need/want to work in the larger AdobeRGB space
(either for editing or matching other sources), then you need to go
through my "hoops" of tagging the small color space (my custom, or
PIM, or sRGB), then "converting" to the larger colorspace.

--
Tom Ferguson
http://www.ferguson-photo-design.com
F707 Studio Info Page:
http://www.pipeline.com/~tomf2468/temp1.html

Tom: Thank you for your insight. I use Adobe Photoshop Elements and I can assign Adobe PS1998 color profile but I do not believe in this program I can assign any other profile such as sRGB.

My monitor color management is assigned Adobe PS 1998, the files from PS Elements are saved with the ICC profile Adobe PS 1998. I print to an HP1220C Pro printer that has a enhanced color managementprogram I assigned a print profile " HP DeskJet" as suggest by HP. Or I can assign sRGB.
Wow this is getting confusing.
Next?
Thanks
Richard

 

[Tom Ferguson]

Tom: Thank you for your insight. I use Adobe Photoshop Elements and
I can assign Adobe PS1998 color profile but I do not believe in
this program I can assign any other profile such as sRGB.
My monitor color management is assigned Adobe PS 1998, the files
from PS Elements are saved with the ICC profile Adobe PS 1998. I
print to an HP1220C Pro printer that has a enhanced color
managementprogram I assigned a print profile " HP DeskJet" as
suggest by HP. Or I can assign sRGB.
Wow this is getting confusing.

Yes, color management confuses 99.99% of us. I have not used "Elements", so this is only speculation.

Many simplier (than Photoshop) programs automatically assign any untagged files whatever colorspace you have chosen in the programs "prefferances". I would be unhappy if Elements didn't let you work in sRGB, as that is the virtual standard for the http://www . Check your prefferances (usually under the file or edit menu on a Mac) and see if you can select sRGB, it is "probably" a better choice for you and your F707. Hopefully an "Elements" user will join us and sort this out.

Assigning AdobeRGB as your monitor profile is rather unusual, and I doubt optimal. You should have a profile that came with your monitor. Most folk assign that unless you are going to custom profile (Adobe Gamma or puck based hardware profiling). I "think" Adobe Gamma comes with elements. It is a very simple likely app, well worth learning.
--
Tom Ferguson
http://www.ferguson-photo-design.com
F707 Studio Info Page:
http://www.pipeline.com/~tomf2468/temp1.html

 

[Marc Beck]

I have a Canon S9000 printer. Does it matter which printer PIM I download?

This a simple way to get more accurate and natural colors from your
Sony cameras that supports PIM. Simply use a PIM pluggin for
photoshop, it can read addition color informations store in your
images which is outside the sRGB range, making the true color
informations store in your photos.

The pluggin is useful even if you aren't using a PIM printer or you
are not printing the images out, it simply make you photos look
better even on your screen. The pluggin is not doing any software
adjustments, it is simply reading some special PIM informations
stored which is not recognise by Photoshop and windows normally.

In fact, image softwares of Nikon and Minolta read the PIM infos
too during their convertion, that's why their photos somtimes look
more natural.
You can see more details here

http://www.dpreview.com/forums/read.aspforum=1009&message=2542339

http://www.printimagematching.com

 

[Richard Cooper]

Tom: Thank you for your insight. I use Adobe Photoshop Elements and
I can assign Adobe PS1998 color profile but I do not believe in
this program I can assign any other profile such as sRGB.
My monitor color management is assigned Adobe PS 1998, the files
from PS Elements are saved with the ICC profile Adobe PS 1998. I
print to an HP1220C Pro printer that has a enhanced color
managementprogram I assigned a print profile " HP DeskJet" as
suggest by HP. Or I can assign sRGB.
Wow this is getting confusing.

Yes, color management confuses 99.99% of us. I have not used
"Elements", so this is only speculation.

Many simplier (than Photoshop) programs automatically assign any
untagged files whatever colorspace you have chosen in the programs
"prefferances". I would be unhappy if Elements didn't let you work
in sRGB, as that is the virtual standard for the http://www . Check your
prefferances (usually under the file or edit menu on a Mac) and see
if you can select sRGB, it is "probably" a better choice for you
and your F707. Hopefully an "Elements" user will join us and sort
this out.

Assigning AdobeRGB as your monitor profile is rather unusual, and I
doubt optimal. You should have a profile that came with your
monitor. Most folk assign that unless you are going to custom
profile (Adobe Gamma or puck based hardware profiling). I "think"
Adobe Gamma comes with elements. It is a very simple likely app,
well worth learning.
--
Tom Ferguson
http://www.ferguson-photo-design.com
F707 Studio Info Page:
http://www.pipeline.com/~tomf2468/temp1.html

Tom: My monitor is a 21" Sony Trinitron and Sony suggests to set the color setting to sRGB, which I now have done.

Works space (Adobe PS Elements) and (HP 1220C) print space are now set to sRGB and what a differencre the color is. It is very natural.The col;ors are bright and images are quite sharp.
Thank you for your continued help.
Richard Cooper

 

[Marc Beck]

Hey Tom,

I tried your approach, and you are 100% correct. The colors are a little duller but probably more accurate. My question is: I use Qimage to print my pictures and I was wondering if you have ever used this program. I am assuming that since I am embedding AdobeRGB to the image that I don't need to assign a profile in Qimage since it will read in the AdobeRGB profile. Does this sound right?

Also, by going into control panel > > display settings > > and color management aren't I assigning your profile as my monitor profile? Is this what I want to do? Don't I need to calibrate my monitor and create a profile or should I use your's?

I just upgraded my Nikon 990 to the F707 and am very happy with the results. I also just replaced my Epson photo 870 with the Canon S9000 and love it. I am just trying to get this whole color thing accurate.

Thanks for your suggestions.

I find PIM rather slow for a program that simply tags a file (I
often shot large quantities of files). I have a custom ICC profile
available in my F707 studio page (see sig) that for my F707 and
lights is more accurate than PIM (not a lot, but more accurate).
One thing I've discovered from folks who have tried it, many folks
truely like thier "Sony Colors"! Truth is duller than "Sony Colors"
and thus some are disapointed ;-(

This a simple way to get more accurate and natural colors from your
Sony cameras that supports PIM. Simply use a PIM pluggin for
photoshop, it can read addition color informations store in your
images which is outside the sRGB range, making the true color
informations store in your photos.

The pluggin is useful even if you aren't using a PIM printer or you
are not printing the images out, it simply make you photos look
better even on your screen. The pluggin is not doing any software
adjustments, it is simply reading some special PIM informations
stored which is not recognise by Photoshop and windows normally.
SNIP>

--
Tom Ferguson
http://www.ferguson-photo-design.com
F707 Studio Info Page:
http://www.pipeline.com/~tomf2468/temp1.html

 

[Wes Keys]

Tom,

I've been pleased with the profile I downloaded from http://www.popphoto.com . I haven't tried yours, because I've been so pleased with the popular photography profile. Maybe you would have time to compare the two. I wasn't able to figure out how to use it with Elements, so I load the image from Photoshop 5.5, let it convert to Adobe RGB1998, save the image to a tiff, and then load it in elements.

regards,
Wes

 

[daniel91332]

In fact, using the profile is only suitable for a specific lighting condition and white balance only, while PIM technology can suit for all kinds of lioghting conditions and white balance.

Tom,

I've been pleased with the profile I downloaded from
http://www.popphoto.com . I haven't tried yours, because I've been
so pleased with the popular photography profile. Maybe you would
have time to compare the two. I wasn't able to figure out how to
use it with Elements, so I load the image from Photoshop 5.5, let
it convert to Adobe RGB1998, save the image to a tiff, and then
load it in elements.

regards,
Wes

 

[daniel91332]

Well, any PIM plggin will do, since different PIM printer pluggin simply includes the printing color profile for that specific printer for printout matching, the converting process in photoshop is still the same, and you can still see better colors in photoshop.

I have a Canon S9000 printer. Does it matter which printer PIM I
download?

 

[Wes Keys]

Daniel,

That's true; the pop photo profile is for daylight, or flash only. I downloaded it after first trying, and being very disappointed with, the PIM technology.

Wes

Tom,

I've been pleased with the profile I downloaded from
http://www.popphoto.com . I haven't tried yours, because I've been
so pleased with the popular photography profile. Maybe you would
have time to compare the two. I wasn't able to figure out how to
use it with Elements, so I load the image from Photoshop 5.5, let
it convert to Adobe RGB1998, save the image to a tiff, and then
load it in elements.

regards,
Wes

--
Wes

 

[daniel91332]

The image is a bit duller, but it seems to me that the blues and greens are brighter and more vivid after importing the image with PIM. Also, after importing the image with PIM, the white balance appear to be more accurate.

Using PIM this way will get you truer colors. What the PIM plugin
does is to assign a specific colorspace to the image. Most F707
users use sRGB as a colorspace. While that is the best choice of
the 'standard" colorspaces, it is not a true match. It is this
mismatch that causes much of the "Sony color".

I find PIM rather slow for a program that simply tags a file (I
often shot large quantities of files). I have a custom ICC profile
available in my F707 studio page (see sig) that for my F707 and
lights is more accurate than PIM (not a lot, but more accurate).
One thing I've discovered from folks who have tried it, many folks
truely like thier "Sony Colors"! Truth is duller than "Sony Colors"
and thus some are disapointed ;-(

 

[daniel91332]

This is a drawbacks using the PIM pluggin.

After the PIM plggin convert the image into epson sRGB 2001 color space, you can only see the correct colors of the image by opening the file in photoshop with its embedded color space (Qimage and photoshop elements are also okay with there color management system).

The image will appear extremely dull, strange colors if u view it in Window's image viewer.

You can solve this problem by converting the image color space to Adobe RGB right after the PIM process.

 

[Tom Ferguson]

All under discussion (my profile, the Pop Photo profile and PIM) assign an ICC profile (tag the image). They all play by the same rules. Any profile is made under one light, and is "limited" by the cameras ability to accurately switch to a differant white balance. PIM has no advantage (or disadvantage) here.

Tom,

I've been pleased with the profile I downloaded from
http://www.popphoto.com . I haven't tried yours, because I've been
so pleased with the popular photography profile. Maybe you would
have time to compare the two. I wasn't able to figure out how to
use it with Elements, so I load the image from Photoshop 5.5, let
it convert to Adobe RGB1998, save the image to a tiff, and then
load it in elements.

regards,
Wes

--
Tom Ferguson
http://www.ferguson-photo-design.com
F707 Studio Info Page:
http://www.pipeline.com/~tomf2468/temp1.html

 

[Tom Ferguson]

I did try the Pop Photo profile. With my camera I found it overcorrected, and my reds became dull and a bit yellow. I have "wondered" if Sony hasn't "played with" thier color space over the various manufacturing runs. That would mean that your camera may "Match" the Pop Photo prodife and mine may not.....

Tom,

I've been pleased with the profile I downloaded from
http://www.popphoto.com . I haven't tried yours, because I've been
so pleased with the popular photography profile. Maybe you would
have time to compare the two. I wasn't able to figure out how to
use it with Elements, so I load the image from Photoshop 5.5, let
it convert to Adobe RGB1998, save the image to a tiff, and then
load it in elements.

regards,
Wes

--
Tom Ferguson
http://www.ferguson-photo-design.com
F707 Studio Info Page:
http://www.pipeline.com/~tomf2468/temp1.html