A Photo Published in the Edinburgh Evening News

I had another photo published in the reader gallery of The Evening News today and I'm quite pleased! I didn't get paid but a little exposure can't hurt. This is the third photo they've used and I just sent another one in with the hope they will use that as well - we'll see though.

Below is the image that was published today, and the one beneath that was published on Friday last week.





If you want to see the photos on The Evening News website just click the link below:

http://edinburghnews.scotsman.com/eveningnewspicturegallery

The preview for the first photo is of a cartoon which appears 2 pages before it, but if you click on it you can see my photo. The preview area for the photo on the front page is working correctly - and they named it "Height of Ambition." The other photo is simply named "Passing Ships."

Anyway, let me know what you think and have a great day,

Rory
Nikon D80, 18-200VR
http://www.pbase.com/rorymc

I'm tempted to start offering accountancy services, surgery, house building, road mending, teaching, airline piloting, bus driving, councelling and chiropody for free to see how other people like it when their occupations are underminded by amateurs.

Actually, I'm not, I'd far rather do enjoyable things with my space time - but it does frustrate me that people are happy to put pros out of business by supplying images for free. Before long a 'pro spec' camera will be a cheap one with two settings, as the only people who will be able to afford a D3 will be people with real jobs.

Nice pics, by the way.

--
http://www.flickr.com/photos/leechypics/

Make your own mind up - there are no rules in this game.

I'm working at an advertising firm in Edinburgh setting up ads for print and web. It's a contract till the end of December, and I'm don't make a ton of cash, so I'm trying to get a little exposure over here in my new city - I just moved here in the middle of December.

A free-lance photographer, who I worked with while gaining some photo experience at The Scotsman, told me to never give up anything for free, but at least get some exposure from the reader gallery at The Evening News. As a person who is making a living doing what he loves, I took his advice. I really don't think my photos in the reader gallery of a newspaper are putting pros out of work, but with the proliferation of high megapixel digital cameras at prices the average person can afford, that is a definite problem. The pro during my work experience mentioned this issue and didn't like it either. If I can ever turn pro myself, I guess this will be an issue I deal with too.

Thanks for checking out the shots,

Rory
Nikon D80, 18-200VR, 70-300VR, SB-600, Tamron 17-50 2.8, 90mm 2.8
http://www.pbase.com/rorymc

jkjond said:

I'm tempted to start offering accountancy services, surgery, house
building, road mending, teaching, airline piloting, bus driving,
councelling and chiropody for free to see how other people like it
when their occupations are underminded by amateurs.

Actually, I'm not, I'd far rather do enjoyable things with my space
time - but it does frustrate me that people are happy to put pros out
of business by supplying images for free. Before long a 'pro spec'
camera will be a cheap one with two settings, as the only people who
will be able to afford a D3 will be people with real jobs.

Nice pics, by the way.

--
http://www.flickr.com/photos/leechypics/

Make your own mind up - there are no rules in this game.

Click to expand...

To the OP, congratulations! Nice pics.

jkjond comments have made me curious... Are you giving them away?

jkjond said:

I'm tempted to start offering accountancy services, surgery, house
building, road mending, teaching, airline piloting, bus driving,
councelling and chiropody for free to see how other people like it
when their occupations are underminded by amateurs.

Actually, I'm not, I'd far rather do enjoyable things with my space
time - but it does frustrate me that people are happy to put pros out
of business by supplying images for free. Before long a 'pro spec'
camera will be a cheap one with two settings, as the only people who
will be able to afford a D3 will be people with real jobs.

Click to expand...

To jkjond:

Hey, fist of, I feel for the OP... Maybe he did sell them and maybe he is a pro (?)

However, as a pro- graphic designer I understand your pain (and share it often times).

There have been times I have told "clients with idea": Do you sing in the shower? To which to their affirmative reply I followed up with: So, would you try to make a living singing?

Now, I can't help it but wonder... Should a paper acquire images for free and risk their reputation in the process (if the images don't stand-up to the level of the paper's reputation).

In other words, I don't think that the "kid buddy of my client's sun" who learned HTML and Flash is taking away my work. I think that the client is irresponsible when not understanding the importance of the image of his/her business.

--
Lito
D80 + Mac

Yup, its a serious issue - most of my work is from dtp projects, but the market diminishes as more people accept their own diy standard over paying for me to do it. In some cases their standard isn't bad, either, so it is an obvious area for them to make a saving.

So, here am I, been specialist in education for umpteen years, but technology is squeezing me out of a job I know well. Time for a change...
--
http://www.flickr.com/photos/leechypics/

Make your own mind up - there are no rules in this game.

that's the changing landscape of photography. you will have to adapt.

jkjond said:

I'm tempted to start offering accountancy services, surgery, house
building, road mending, teaching, airline piloting, bus driving,
councelling and chiropody for free to see how other people like it
when their occupations are underminded by amateurs.

Actually, I'm not, I'd far rather do enjoyable things with my space
time - but it does frustrate me that people are happy to put pros out
of business by supplying images for free. Before long a 'pro spec'
camera will be a cheap one with two settings, as the only people who
will be able to afford a D3 will be people with real jobs.

Click to expand...

--You don't need a license or a degree to be a professional photographer, but you have to have talent that is recognized as valuable if you want to make money. Rory is just testing the waters to see if his work is acceptable and on what level he is at...which is a perfect way for him to gain confidence at his craft. He'll get paid when the time is right.

Entertainment stars hone their craft for years at little or no pay before they hit it big "all of a sudden".

Hey Rory...congratulations on having your pictures published. Keep up the good work.

Coolpix 950, 4500, P5000, D50, Canon 250D, 500D, 50mm/1.8, 105VR, 18-200VR, 70-300VR, Sigma 10-20.
CATS Member> ^..^
WSSA Member#40 ( Head Squirrel)
PAS Charter Member #5
MAA Member
Proud FCAS Member#127
http://www.pbase.com/thegaber

jkjond said:

I'm tempted to start offering accountancy services, surgery, house
building, road mending, teaching, airline piloting, bus driving,
councelling and chiropody for free to see how other people like it
when their occupations are underminded by amateurs.

Actually, I'm not, I'd far rather do enjoyable things with my space
time - but it does frustrate me that people are happy to put pros out
of business by supplying images for free. Before long a 'pro spec'
camera will be a cheap one with two settings, as the only people who
will be able to afford a D3 will be people with real jobs.

Nice pics, by the way.

--
http://www.flickr.com/photos/leechypics/

Make your own mind up - there are no rules in this game.

Click to expand...

wow! out of line much?

there is plenty of work available for pros worth their salt. more now than ever if you think about all of the money spent on media these days.

instead of lamenting the obvious changes in your area of work maybe its time to re-think your approach in getting paid.

I don't get the hostility in your reply...it's a reader gallery for crissakes. i don't think a pro would even qualify to have their shots featured in it (of course I am a few thousand miles away and maybe reader gallery in scotland is not the same as us).

bonus points for tossing out the phrase chiropody, but please don't steal the op's thunder for an accomplishment he/she should be proud of.

sheesh!

as a former professional journalist, i know there is always a tension between, say, photogs and reporters who take their own photos for their stories. in that case, the practice does cost professional shooters jobs.

but in your case, i don't think it is any different than letters to the editors, or free op ed pieces, as opposed to staff-created content. the staff would not be filling the editorial page news hole. so in this, i disagree with jkjond. you are not "the competition" because if i know newspapers, the scotsman would not pay for a "reader photo" any more than it would for a letter to the editor.

g

--
~ To know what one does not know is the beginning of wisdom. ~

http://www.flickr.com/photos/94639969@N00/

First, I'll make it abundantly clear that I agree wholeheartedly with grj, and I disagree with jkjond. This publication has no affect on me, or on any other pros around - and yes, I should not have stollen Rory's thunder... but hopefully put in enough clues to hint at my intentions.

But this is a serious issue, yes there is plenty of photo opportunity, but as a trade in general it is on a downward spiral - clients see it as a money saving area, so although the top agencies will still provide a lucrative area for the top workers, the bottom of the pile is being eroded.

What do you do for a living, Erik? Is it something I could do for free? Let me know, I'll pop over your way and undercut you to the point where you need to consider a complete change in life, maybe move house to a different area - forced to emigrate to a country where your savings will stretch a little further, assuming you have savings.

It is a very real problem for some of us... what should I do, go into education (that's what the world needs, more pessimists in eduction - they don't even like use of sarcasm in teaching these days, so that rules me out of it), get a job in a camera shop... chiropody becomes a really viable alternative, I doubt there will ever be a rush on people wanting to undercut a good chiropodist or offer services for free. Imagine the websites with forums, people swapping tips... and the photos!

Deep down, I have the Star Trek feeling that money should not exist in society - I think I'm a commy at heart - but I know that this is all a sci-fi ideal which cannot work in a diverse world, or at least not in this one. Now there's the ultimate in emigration.

erik527 said:

jkjond said:

I'm tempted to start offering accountancy services, surgery, house
building, road mending, teaching, airline piloting, bus driving,
councelling and chiropody for free to see how other people like it
when their occupations are underminded by amateurs.

Actually, I'm not, I'd far rather do enjoyable things with my space
time - but it does frustrate me that people are happy to put pros out
of business by supplying images for free. Before long a 'pro spec'
camera will be a cheap one with two settings, as the only people who
will be able to afford a D3 will be people with real jobs.

Nice pics, by the way.

--
http://www.flickr.com/photos/leechypics/

Make your own mind up - there are no rules in this game.

Click to expand...

wow! out of line much?

there is plenty of work available for pros worth their salt. more
now than ever if you think about all of the money spent on media
these days.
instead of lamenting the obvious changes in your area of work maybe
its time to re-think your approach in getting paid.

I don't get the hostility in your reply...it's a reader gallery for
crissakes. i don't think a pro would even qualify to have their
shots featured in it (of course I am a few thousand miles away and
maybe reader gallery in scotland is not the same as us).

bonus points for tossing out the phrase chiropody, but please don't
steal the op's thunder for an accomplishment he/she should be proud
of.

sheesh!

Click to expand...

--
http://www.flickr.com/photos/leechypics/

Make your own mind up - there are no rules in this game.

jkjond said:

First, I'll make it abundantly clear that I agree wholeheartedly with
grj, and I disagree with jkjond. This publication has no affect on
me, or on any other pros around - and yes, I should not have stollen
Rory's thunder... but hopefully put in enough clues to hint at my
intentions.

But this is a serious issue, yes there is plenty of photo
opportunity, but as a trade in general it is on a downward spiral -
clients see it as a money saving area, so although the top agencies
will still provide a lucrative area for the top workers, the bottom
of the pile is being eroded.

What do you do for a living, Erik? Is it something I could do for
free? Let me know, I'll pop over your way and undercut you to the
point where you need to consider a complete change in life, maybe
move house to a different area - forced to emigrate to a country
where your savings will stretch a little further, assuming you have
savings.

It is a very real problem for some of us... what should I do, go into
education (that's what the world needs, more pessimists in eduction -
they don't even like use of sarcasm in teaching these days, so that
rules me out of it), get a job in a camera shop... chiropody becomes
a really viable alternative, I doubt there will ever be a rush on
people wanting to undercut a good chiropodist or offer services for
free. Imagine the websites with forums, people swapping tips... and
the photos!

Deep down, I have the Star Trek feeling that money should not exist
in society - I think I'm a commy at heart - but I know that this is
all a sci-fi ideal which cannot work in a diverse world, or at least
not in this one. Now there's the ultimate in emigration.

Click to expand...

.ke your own mind up - there are no rules in this game.

--It sounds to me that you are a professional photographer jkjond and are worried about amateurs infiltrating your profession. Every professional can have the same fear, but you have to have confidence in yourself above all to succeed. Don't worry about anyone else...do your job well and you are the one that will be a success.

There is plenty of room in this world. If you are good, you need not worry.

BTW- I've looked at your photo's and I think you are a superb photographer!
You should be more encouraging to others.

Coolpix 950, 4500, P5000, D50, Canon 250D, 500D, 50mm/1.8, 105VR, 18-200VR, 70-300VR, Sigma 10-20.
CATS Member> ^..^
WSSA Member#40 ( Head Squirrel)
PAS Charter Member #5
MAA Member
Proud FCAS Member#127
http://www.pbase.com/thegaber

Gaber said:

--It sounds to me that you are a professional photographer jkjond and
are worried about amateurs infiltrating your profession. Every
professional can have the same fear, but you have to have confidence
in yourself above all to succeed. Don't worry about anyone else...do
your job well and you are the one that will be a success.

Click to expand...

What you are saying is fine in the short-term. But it is an increasing problem year on year... the digital revolution is transforming this sport - who knows what it will be like in 10 years time.

Top pros will always command a premium, but the middle and lower ground will be infiltrated by amateurs, and there will be pros who will leave the scene. But does it matter? To the person who loses his livelyhood it certainly does - but is it just an indication that they didn't have a 'real' job?

Ultimately, yes it is - why should anyone pay for something which is available for free? We all make compromises on quality if the price is right. I would rather think that amateurs wanting to see their work in print would also seek the going rate from sales, but it is clear that the going rate is reducing.

Gaber said:

There is plenty of room in this world. If you are good, you need not
worry.

Click to expand...

But it changes the definition of good. Being a pro has little to do with photographic ability - it is all about sales and marketing. That is the difference between those who make a living and those who are playing at it. The key is that those who are good at adapting need not worry... Adaptability is a young man's game, I used to be good at that.

Gaber said:

BTW- I've looked at your photo's and I think you are a superb
photographer!

Click to expand...

Thanks, I'm flattered. I'm not good at handling praise!

Gaber said:

You should be more encouraging to others.

Click to expand...

I don't intend to be anything but - though I pigeonhole myself as a realist. Its just that everyones sense of reality is different. I have put an outrageous amount of time and effort into giving free advice on this site, but I don't believe in making it easy. People need to think for themselves more and learn to solve problems. I dish out lots of practical advice regarding composition, pp and presentation, and some decidedly dodgy advice regarding equipment and technique.

This has all been a bit of a ramble - I'm prone to doing this now and again. Just me thinking aloud without drawing any real conclusions. I'm quite mixed about the whole issue.

Gaber said:

Coolpix 950, 4500, P5000, D50, Canon 250D, 500D, 50mm/1.8, 105VR,
18-200VR, 70-300VR, Sigma 10-20.
CATS Member> ^..^
WSSA Member#40 ( Head Squirrel)

Click to expand...

Important role

Gaber said:

PAS Charter Member #5
MAA Member
Proud FCAS Member#127
http://www.pbase.com/thegaber

Click to expand...

--
http://www.flickr.com/photos/leechypics/

Make your own mind up - there are no rules in this game.

Gaber said:

--You don't need a license or a degree to be a professional
photographer, but you have to have talent that is recognized as
valuable if you want to make money.

Click to expand...

As a member of a traditional profession that does have stringent requirements regarding education, training, licensure, self-regulation, ethical conduct, etc., I really have a bee in my bonnet about using "professional" to describe photographers who take pictures for compensation. I try to avoid using the phrase "professional photographer", though I no doubt slip occasionally. I think "commercial" or "free-lance" are more suitable. Photography is a craft, a calling, a vocation, for some an almost spiritual pursuit. But its not a profession in the sense of law, medicine, or engineering. Commercial photographers don't have to take stringent examinations or risk having their credentials formally stripped if they are proved negligent or incompetent. They live with some liability concerns but needn't ever worry about formal malpractice insurance.

(Using this logic I know that the phrase "professional athlete" is equally flawed, but that is another discussion.)

As surprising as this may be some who read this, people close to me seem to think I take great pictures. I know from this forum that I really take pretty bad pictures. How do I reconcile this discrepancy? Easy--the people who like my pictures don't know what they are talking about. Unfortunately, the people who like my pictures are just like many of the people out there who seek commercial photography services. Lets face it, in such a cutthroat business, I could see how some customers could be tempted to accept something that is "good enough" yet cheap or even free over something that is technically superior but a lot more expensive.

The idea that I am any real livelihood threat to bona fide commercial photographers makes me laugh hysterically, but as I contemplate the tenor of this thread I really suppose stranger things are possible. If I weren't so damn stubborn or lazy I may be inclined to do something about it, but my existing line of work is more secure and better paid and gives me the means to be that most obnoxious kind of photographer, the dilettante.

This discussion has really helped me answer one question that has troubled me--of the commercial photographers I have met, a disproportionate number of them are cantankerous b@stards who have an effete contempt for the enthusiastic if joyously incompetent hobbyist like myself. It seems clearer now. Making a living in photography is a mean business, and mean work creates some mean people. Jeepers, I have met civil litigation lawyers that are more collegial and warm with each other than some photographers.

jkjond said:

What you are saying is fine in the short-term. But it is an
increasing problem year on year... the digital revolution is
transforming this sport - who knows what it will be like in 10 years
time.

Click to expand...

Technology advances. Choosing a profession that is based on a certain technology is always a risk due to the possibility of that technology evolving in unexpected ways or being rendered obsolete by newer technologies.

Perhaps the "digital revolution" is transforming the way one goes about photography, but the end result is effectively the same. A photo taken in 1910 and a photo taken in 2010 will both be photographs, regardless of the methods used to capture them. To consistently produce aesthetically pleasing photos, one needs knowledge that is independent of the technology being used.

Never thought this thread would turn into what it did, but what the heck, you roll with the punches and this has been plenty entertaining.

In one of your posts jkjond you said "the digital revolution is transforming this sport" and I think comparing business to sport works on several levels. Every year in most pro sports there is a draft which brings an influx of young players into each league and inevitably some of the older or non-skilled players are forced to retire or ply their trade in a lesser league for a smaller paycheque. The cost of some players who are up for free agency many times exceeds what smaller market teams are willing to spend. Some players, even after they retire, stay in the game in one capacity or another while others move into new lines of work.

And this is what everyone has to deal with no matter what you job is - skilled students graduate from school every year and are willing to work for less money to gain experience - sometimes you can price yourself out of a market if you're not willing to take a pay cut - and no matter the profession, people retire and some just need a career change for whatever reasons.

There are challenges no matter what position you hold, and there is always someone willing to do it for less, or even worse, they're after your job. Just the reality of working in our modern societies!

And you better watch out jkjond, I'm building up my dtp skills every day now while working at an advertising firm. Coupled with my degree in Desktop Publishing from Toronto, and my photography skills, I may be a threat sooner than later. Ya never know.

For those of who enjoyed the photos Thank You (Lito, Gabe, Erik)! To the others who responded to the discussion regarding the infringement of amateurs in a professional world, Thank You as well. It was interesting to get everyone's take and hear what ya'll are thinking.

Have a great day/night,

Rory
http://www.pbase.com/rorymc

and true, digital shooting has brought great photog closer to eveyone, not something for the ultra specialist/pro (and they are complaining about that!).

--
Regards, Renato.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/11435304@N04

This is not cutting into the pro's arena, I have had pics printed in such galleries, no big deal.

But it's true that the digital era has ushered a new way of dealing with these things. And good photography is much closer now to the newcomer than ever before.

Will this mean the end of the pro's markets? No, just much more competition and more young folks trying to get in. But a market is a market, only the very few will survive (even though I think the market has been enlarged too).

jkjond said:

Yup, its a serious issue - most of my work is from dtp projects, but
the market diminishes as more people accept their own diy standard
over paying for me to do it. In some cases their standard isn't bad,
either, so it is an obvious area for them to make a saving.

So, here am I, been specialist in education for umpteen years, but
technology is squeezing me out of a job I know well. Time for a
change...
--
http://www.flickr.com/photos/leechypics/

Make your own mind up - there are no rules in this game.

Click to expand...

--
Regards, Renato.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/11435304@N04

Hello Rory!

Nice to see you doing well over yonder. Congrates on the photo.
--
Dan
London, Canada
http://www.flickr.com/photos/d_bolger/
gear listed in profile

Thanks Renato! I'm pretty sure my photograph in a Reader Photo Gallery of a local paper is not going to put any pros out of business. Out of my collection of images though, I have sold a few and made some extra money on the side of my full time job. Most of the money I've made though, I have reinvested in better equiptment for my photographic endeavours.

And I'm going to introduce myself to your thread.

Take it easy,

Rory
http://www.pbase.com/rorymc

rhlpetrus said:

and true, digital shooting has brought great photog closer to
eveyone, not something for the ultra specialist/pro (and they are
complaining about that!).

--
Regards, Renato.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/11435304@N04

Click to expand...

Shame on you, rorymc, for putting jkjond and all those other people out of work. that's disgraceful.

jkjond, you better get with the program or get left behind. You ain't the first person in history to have his "technical" skill undermined by progress. You ain't the first to whine about it either.