D1X: The Real Truth About CCD Dust

Leon Obers · Jun 3, 2002

Hendrik van der Veen said:
Hendrik van der Veen said:

I am happy I don't have these problems at all.

Click to expand...

Well that is because you probably don't own a D-SLR (D1X).

I do have experiance with digital photography about 10 years with all kinds of professional systems (D1X including). Yes dust you get to your CCD. But it is not a problem to clean it. Most of the time the air of my rubber air ball is enough to clean. And yes, I never get those prolems in such a hard way as showing your examples.

You have to be in mind that in old fashioned darkroom, you have to clean every negative very carefully before printing too. Digital workflow the cleaning part doesn't take as much time in comparison to old fasioned darkroom cleaning.

Hendrik van der Veen said:
I'm happy I don't have to shoot a lot with f11-f22.

Maybe that is one reason too that I don't have much problems. Most of the time I don't use very small apertures. Taking pictures I do want the head subject "separate" from the background, so I do use nearly wide open apertures.

Hendrik van der Veen said:
Leon, there will be dust on the CCD even when you never take the
camera out of the box.

I know, but never got those problems in such a hard way.

--
Leon Obers

Alan E. Schlesinger · Jun 3, 2002

I assume this is tongue-in-cheek. If not, what rubbish. The quality of the Canon lenses and bodies equals that of Nikon. I have had only Nikon equipment (film SLR's and digital point-and-shoots) for 15 years. When I bought a digital SLR, I chose the D60, mainly because of the dust issue. I have had it for 6 weeks (700 images) and have oinly 2 small spots when stopped down with blue skies. I can't compare directly with Nikon DSLR's, because I don't have one, but I don't have problems like the one posted in this thread. However, there are several posts of more severe dust problems with Canons in the Canon SLR forum. Even if the D60 has less problems, both manufactures must address this issue, as it seems to be a big one for everyone (but perhaps moreso with Nikon DSLR users).

Sam ( Warren ) Cooke said:
Member said:

What's the difference?

Click to expand...

This is too easy: Perhaps the choice of photographic equipment and
the final result goes to how discerning the user/subject/final
arbitor is? Nikon people are genuine sticklers for perfection,
which is how they made their original equimment choice.

Leon Obers · Jun 3, 2002

Movie Bear said:
Why is it that the Canon D60 users don't report this kind of image
contamination from their photo work?

This forum (Nikon) spends allot of energy talking about dust
workflow- and yet I hardly ever see it in the Canon DSLR forum?

What's the difference?

Just another sort of people choosing for Canon or Nikon. Canon people take the disadvantages for what they are, they just shoot and take their time spending to photography instead of argueing about "dust".

Within the studio I do work, we do use several digital systems. Canon too, and yes also Canon imagers are not free from dust, as all other digital sytems.

You have to be in mind that the images we are making, we take energy to post-processing, image-retouching etc. . The little time to spend to brush some dots is nothing within the complete workflow.

--
Leon Obers

Nickle S. · Jun 3, 2002

Clint Thayer #32755 said:
Note that this shot required stopped down apertures- and that this
lens (both ends) were completely clean and the D1X had a a thorough
CCD and mirror box cleaning just 3 hours prior to taking this shot.

I don't cram lenses in my pocket-- I never leave end caps off. And
they were cleaned AGAIN just moments before this photo was taken.

Movie Bear,

First off, the finished photograph looks great. The temperature where I live was about 90 today - that mountain looked inviting.

With all due respect, I was wondering, how are you cleaning your CCD? I use Thom's method; Eclipse and a homemade swab (w/pec-pad) and I usually have zero dust when I'm done. I also use a lens wrap on my zooms to keep dust to a minimum. So, basically, were all of those spots accumulated in the 3 hours you refer to after your cleaning?

Nick

Ed Nazarko · Jun 3, 2002

there are a lot of anti-static solutions from the old vinyl LP record world that may be of use here. Anti-stat guns (I've got a ZeroStat), brushes (StaticMaster, which those with a darkroom - does anybody still have a darkroom - may have experience with...) They work great on vinyl LPs, with the ZeroStat you can actually see the dust "leap" off the record. I use them sometimes with slides. If static charge is a problem this should help a lot.

as a usually shoot-film-scan person, other than my "backup" CoolPix 995, I can say that the slide-to-digital workflow has great tools for managing dust, better than any solutions in the darkroom world. I grovel at the feet of Digital Ice. I do a lot of off-beaten-path work - the stories here about dust have made me invest in better scanners and better "sealed" back-up cameras (dying for the 5700), and wait for some wizard to reduce the problem to a film equivalent work load.

Eric Jon Job said:
I've found the solution. A portable "clean room." See

http://www.cleanroomeng.com/products_softwalls.cfm

for details on what promises to solve the dust problems
once and for all.

More seriously, if I understand it, the CCD attracts dust because
it has a charge on it. Can they build something into the camera
that has a greater charge than the CCD to draw dust away?
Or would it be possible to create a CCD cleaner that amounted
to a charged wand that one could point near the CCD (but not
touch it) that could draw the dust off of it?

Eric

Ger Bee · Jun 3, 2002

... the NIKON SLR forum.

I can't blame you though as a lot of Canon people FORGET they are here.

Hmmmmm :0

Ger Bee · Jun 3, 2002

... No bleedin contest - give is a break ... I will shovel the ashes from my fire into the CCD of my D1x and STILL prefer it for its performance and quality and to even mention an E10 - jeeeeees.

You on something?

Andrew Snow · Jun 3, 2002

From what I have seen, the dust problem is going to get worse for people as the pixels get smaller in digital cameras. It seems to me people complain about it much more with the D1x versus the D1 classic / D1h. I wonder what the dust problem would be like for the contax N?

With lenses, I notice that unless I get an oily smudge on them such as a finger print, its possible to keep them dust free simply by using a powerful air blower in an indoors environment. I can't help but wonder if all the cleaning methods for the CCD involving liquid cleaners, actually make the dust problem worse by attracting more dust onto it than before? Or is it simply that no one has yet discovered the best cleaning fluid to use.

I think it simply means digital cameras with interchangeable lenses cannot be used in very dusty environments. I can't think of anything they can do which will make the problem really go away.

I have found that changing lenses inside your bag (which should be dust free inside) helps alot.

Just do it quickly, and not in a sandstorm / construction zone / etc ;-) then, I think the weekly/daily cleaning routine (back at home/office) should keep it in check for even the busiest photographers.

Andrew

SomePeteGuy · Jun 3, 2002

F.U. Bee said:
And while we're at it, dust is not the only unconscionable flaw of
the D1X. Another major issue that adds considerable time to
workflow is the lack of automatic auto-rotation of shots taken in
portrait orientation. No excuse for not having this on a 5K camera.

I guess it reall ydepends upon how you define "considerable time."

I find it quite easy to select all of the portrait oriented pictures in Nikin View and rotate them all at once.

Pete

Clint Thayer #32755 · Jun 3, 2002

Andrew Snow said:
From what I have seen, the dust problem is going to get worse for
people as the pixels get smaller in digital cameras. It seems to
me people complain about it much more with the D1x versus the D1
classic / D1h. I wonder what the dust problem would be like for
the contax N?

With lenses, I notice that unless I get an oily smudge on them such
as a finger print, its possible to keep them dust free simply by
using a powerful air blower in an indoors environment. I can't
help but wonder if all the cleaning methods for the CCD involving
liquid cleaners, actually make the dust problem worse by attracting
more dust onto it than before? Or is it simply that no one has yet
discovered the best cleaning fluid to use.

I think it simply means digital cameras with interchangeable lenses
cannot be used in very dusty environments. I can't think of
anything they can do which will make the problem really go away.

I have found that changing lenses inside your bag (which should be
dust free inside) helps alot.

Just do it quickly, and not in a sandstorm / construction zone /
etc ;-) then, I think the weekly/daily cleaning routine (back at
home/office) should keep it in check for even the busiest
photographers.

Andrew

Thank you Andrew.

Common sense goes a long way too. You have to make some changes or adapt-- and I'm sure this problem can be minimized like you mention. Changing inside bag is a good idea.....

--
Clint
http://www.pbase.com/moviebear

Chris Ventura93896 · Jun 3, 2002

From what I have read, it seems that the CMOS sensor creates less of a dust attraction due to its lower power consumption. Am I correct?

Clint Thayer #32755 said:
Why is it that the Canon D60 users don't report this kind of image
contamination from their photo work?

This forum (Nikon) spends allot of energy talking about dust
workflow- and yet I hardly ever see it in the Canon DSLR forum?

What's the difference?

Laurie123 · Jun 3, 2002

This is an odd statement. Obviously you haven't discovered a huge useful range of a good lens. If you had, you would say, "I'm angry that shooting at f11-22 is such a pain with the dust issue present."

Hendrik van der Veen said:
Hendrik van der Veen said:

Hendrik van der Veen said:

I'm happy I don't have to shoot a lot with f11-f22.

Click to expand...

Click to expand...

Hendrik van der Veen said:
Leon Obers said:

I am happy I don't have these problems at all.

Click to expand...

Well that is because you probably don't own a D-SLR (D1X).

I'm very careful with my equipment. I have never changed a lens in
3 weeks, and when I do, I only do it with extreem precausions. I
hate the dust on my CCD, but it is a battle I can't win. I now can
live with it.

I'm happy I don't have to shoot a lot with f11-f22.

Leon, there will be dust on the CCD even when you never take the
camera out of the box.

-Hendrik-

Hendrik van der Veen · Jun 4, 2002

F.U. Bee said:
Laurie123 said:

Laurie123 said:

Laurie123 said:

I'm happy I don't have to shoot a lot with f11-f22.

Click to expand...

Click to expand...

Click to expand...

Most of the time I shoot indoor portraits. I use f2.8-f11.

I haven't used my D1X yet with travel/landscape pictures. If I do, I probably need the f11-f22 range, then I expect I will really begin to hate the dust issue. Today, when I shoot landscapes, I use my 'old' analog SLR en scan my slides. I bought my camera a few weeks ago. I love it, but haven't used it with all kinds of photography, yet. (What is holding me back??? Dust?)

-Hendrik-

alfred_schiele · Jun 4, 2002

Hi!

I have seen some exaples when images suffered from dust... But...

I can not believe this example is true... did you pour some liquid stuff inside your camera? All the spots look so even and well circular shaped. Maybe a slight breeze from your mouth?

I am sorry, but when I am looking at your "retouching" it looks more like you added the spots later then removing them...

?= wizard of digital... I am beginning to think either you have some very extraordinary handling problems with your camera or you want to believe us here something different than the truth... Sorry, and it is still a question to you,,,

Regards, A. Schiele

Movie Bear said:
Here is an example of a photo that was masked in another layer
before I had to apply retouch. Every black dot represents dust
contamination that had to be removed before final completion.

Note that this shot required stopped down apertures- and that this
lens (both ends) were completely clean and the D1X had a a thorough
CCD and mirror box cleaning just 3 hours prior to taking this shot.

I don't cram lenses in my pocket-- I never leave end caps off. And
they were cleaned AGAIN just moments before this photo was taken.

The "After" picture can be viewed at
http://www.pbase.com/image/2327672

Trent Mulkern · Jun 4, 2002

I would have to agree with you. I have never seen a photo with dust like that ever on this forum. Could it be the result of canned air perhaps, assuming the photo has not been digitally altered??

Regards,
Trent

alfred_schiele said:
I have seen some exaples when images suffered from dust... But...
I can not believe this example is true... did you pour some liquid
stuff inside your camera? All the spots look so even and well
circular shaped. Maybe a slight breeze from your mouth?

I am sorry, but when I am looking at your "retouching" it looks
more like you added the spots later then removing them... ?=
wizard of digital... I am beginning to think either you have some
very extraordinary handling problems with your camera or you want
to believe us here something different than the truth... Sorry, and
it is still a question to you,,,

Regards, A. Schiele

Movie Bear said:

Here is an example of a photo that was masked in another layer
before I had to apply retouch. Every black dot represents dust
contamination that had to be removed before final completion.

Note that this shot required stopped down apertures- and that this
lens (both ends) were completely clean and the D1X had a a thorough
CCD and mirror box cleaning just 3 hours prior to taking this shot.

I don't cram lenses in my pocket-- I never leave end caps off. And
they were cleaned AGAIN just moments before this photo was taken.

The "After" picture can be viewed at
http://www.pbase.com/image/2327672

Click to expand...

Clint Thayer #32755 · Jun 4, 2002

Trent Mulkern said:
Trent Mulkern said:

Trent Mulkern said:

Here is an example of a photo that was masked in another layer
before I had to apply retouch. Every black dot represents dust
contamination that had to be removed before final completion.

Click to expand...

Click to expand...

Every black dot REPRESENTS dust contamination. These flaws were masked in ANOTHER LAYER so I could show you the dust. This is not anything unusual as far as dust goes with a shot like this.

The black blobs themselves are not the dust- only showing you how much dust and in what locations they were REMOVED.

OK?

Clint Thayer #32755 · Jun 4, 2002

Read this article on Thom Hogan's website concerning this issue. There you will find exactly the same kind of problem I had with this sky and snow shot.

Pay particular attention to the example photo with the red arrows pointing to the dust-- and read the caption below the photo.

http://www.bythom.com/cleaning.htm

Thom Hogan · Jun 4, 2002

Andrew Snow said:
From what I have seen, the dust problem is going to get worse for
people as the pixels get smaller in digital cameras. It seems to
me people complain about it much more with the D1x versus the D1
classic / D1h. I wonder what the dust problem would be like for
the contax N?

Wouldn't be worse--the size of the photosites is larger than the D1x and there is more space between them.

Andrew Snow said:
I think it simply means digital cameras with interchangeable lenses
cannot be used in very dusty environments.

I beg to disagree with you. That's the ONLY environment that I use my digital camera in.

--
Thom Hogan
author, Nikon Field Guide
author, Nikon Flash Guide
author, Complete Guide to the Nikon D1, D1h, & D1x
http://www.bythom.com

Thom Hogan · Jun 4, 2002

Movie Bear said:
Why is it that the Canon D60 users don't report this kind of image
contamination from their photo work?

Visible dust is DOF related and photosite size related. I suspect that Canon's filter sits closer to the CCD than Nikon's, which would help. Also, remember that the D1x photosites are physically smaller and two photosites sit together with no space between them, which would tend to make small dust more visible, and dust that sits on a photosite edge resolve better.

Remember, too, that Nikon has been consistently ahead of Canon in the digital SLR realm, especially resolution-wise (D1 predates the D30, D1x predates the D60/1D). Those of us who have high-tech backgrounds know the old adage about the "bleeding edge..."

--
Thom Hogan
author, Nikon Field Guide
author, Nikon Flash Guide
author, Complete Guide to the Nikon D1, D1h, & D1x
http://www.bythom.com

Alan Schlesinger · Jun 4, 2002

Yes, WE can multitask!

Ger Bee said:
... the NIKON SLR forum.

I can't blame you though as a lot of Canon people FORGET they are
here.

Hmmmmm :0

D1X: The Real Truth About CCD Dust

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