K20D vs. A350

BTW Photozone resolution tests are not comparable across the systems, as they use different cameras however if you take it at face value it shows you that 10MP K10D with that lens attached has almost the same resolution as a year or more newer 12MP A700 flagship with Sony lens... that should tell you something about the absolute resolution of the two systems...

In other words Pentax makes up 2MP resolution minus against the Sony combination with just the optical setup despite being a year older system... 14MP K20D would give you significantly better resolution with the same lens comparing to 10MP K10D...

--
common sense is anything but common
 
BTW Photozone resolution tests are not comparable across the
systems, as they use different cameras however if you take it at face
value it shows you that 10MP K10D with that lens attached has almost
the same resolution as a year or more newer 12MP A700 flagship with
Sony lens... that should tell you something about the absolute
resolution of the two systems...

In other words Pentax makes up 2MP resolution minus against the Sony
combination with just the optical setup despite being a year older
system... 14MP K20D would give you significantly better resolution
with the same lens comparing to 10MP K10D...
No, the Photozone tests just give you an idea how the lens performs, i.e. at what spatial frequency the MTF drops to 50%. You can't use the results to compare different camera-lens combinations. The cameras capture detail beyond the MTF50 lw/ph figure quoted in the tests. You can't say that camera A has more or less resolution than camera B - the photozone tests are only good to compare lenses (and even there I suspect that in-camera sharpening plays a role - cameras which sharpen more getting higher MTF50 values than cameras which sharpen less).
--

Alfred
 
BTW Photozone resolution tests are not comparable across the
systems, as they use different cameras however if you take it at face
value it shows you that 10MP K10D with that lens attached has almost
the same resolution as a year or more newer 12MP A700 flagship with
Sony lens... that should tell you something about the absolute
resolution of the two systems...

In other words Pentax makes up 2MP resolution minus against the Sony
combination with just the optical setup despite being a year older
system... 14MP K20D would give you significantly better resolution
with the same lens comparing to 10MP K10D...
No, the Photozone tests just give you an idea how the lens performs,
i.e. at what spatial frequency the MTF drops to 50%. You can't use
the results to compare different camera-lens combinations. The
cameras capture detail beyond the MTF50 lw/ph figure quoted in the
tests. You can't say that camera A has more or less resolution than
camera B - the photozone tests are only good to compare lenses (and
even there I suspect that in-camera sharpening plays a role - cameras
which sharpen more getting higher MTF50 values than cameras which
sharpen less).
--

Alfred
not sure that I understood your point...

are you saying
A - you cannot compare cross system at all.

or

B - you can compare purely lens resolution even across the systems

I agree with A, even though in my understanding the camera/lens combination gives you the resolution figures that Klaus reports...

in any case I would disagree with B, and that point is obvious, as you can see for Canon lenses which are tested with 8MP Rebel XT no lens goes beyond 2100 or so... while on K10D with Pentax the top of the range is about 2300 or so... Nikon with D200 is slightly less, but that is due to stronger AA filter which reduces the maximum resolution available on that camera... so 12 MP in A700 should definitely bring higher numbers to tests done for Sony lenses, but in principle lens tests can only reliably compared within the camera system, so I agree with that... but I'd also expect higher max scores taken with 12MP Sony camera, which did not yet happen...

--
common sense is anything but common
 
Alfred Molon wrote:
Have you seen the review of the Zuiko 12-60? It got a Highly
recommended, so 5x quality zooms are technically possible.
Hi again Alfred,

yes the Zuiko 12-60 is indeed a fine lens, and Olympus has been doing well in making great digital lenses. Worth considering since dust, Live-View, and IQ are parameter for you. At lower Iso they have fine resolution.

Regarding Olympus, people have been stating that no matter what they did; they found it almost impossible to get dust on the sensor, due to the excellent and effective anti-dust system of Oly. (In the Oly forum they can give you more on this)
I can't imagine using a prime lens, i.e. carrying around a bag of
primes to choose from. Besides what is the point of having a prime
with stellar resolution and optical properties, when you lose the
shot while you are changing lenses?
I usually have an idea of what sort of photography I wanna do at a present location. I plan for my future travel light / mountaineering kit to comprise of the following pancake primes : 15 mm, 21 mm, 70 mm. The lenses weigh from 130-200 gram each, and are just a few centimetres long, so take up little room. For photography in dodgy places in bigger cities, a small prime on a DLSR, also normally attract less attention.
Few serious
landscape shooters would choose your 5x zoom for that type of job. To
my knowledge, your consumer zoom lens on the R1, does not even
feature Aspherical lens elements or ED glass, like e.g. the
Pentax/Tamron DA 18-250/3.5-6.3 AL ED [IF].
Well, the lens of the R1 is on the level of a good DSLR lens based on
what Phil writes in his review.
Now I’ve read the review of the Sony R1. I didn’t even know that such a camera existed, with a big sensor and fine zoom lens. It does well compared to the EF-S 17-85mm f/4-5.6 USM IS, but this is also a sub-stellar lens. The R1 also holds its own well compared to a Canon 50 mm and a Olympus 50 mm, still these comparisons are not at extreme settings, as the R1 is not particularly fast at 50 mm setting. (And there are no comparisons with Canon L glass zooms, nor against primes at the more extreme lengths, like 15 mm, 24 mm, or 85 mm).

To get the same kind of lens quality and approximate zoom range, a DSLR is bundled up with the Sigma 17 - 35 mm EX DG F2.8 - F4, and Sigma Sigma 24 - 70 mm EX DG F2.8.

The R1 was a sweet package those years ago, but I can understand why a DSLR would tempt now. I think I would feel a bit restricted with it, what if one wanted to go wider than 24 mm equivalent ? Or I came by a great macro scene ? Or needed further than 120 mm ? All options that could be applicable to architecture scenery, or landscape capture. This is where a DSLR has more creative options. I’m not even sure manual focus is possible with the R1.

But interesting that a VCL-DEH08R Wide Conversion Lens (0.8x), 390 g, can be purchased for it.
Do you have any test result to back up this assertion?
This is just the experience I've had, going from a megazoom to a high quality prime; I realized all the other virtues that are in lens characteristics, 3d effect, etc.

I showed some photography to various people, not telling that I was shooting with a new lens, and I was surprised how much better they found the rendering from the prime lens. The zoom had acceptable sharpness, but seems there are many more subjective elements to lenses that do not show up in set-up tests.
But indeed, based on reviews, the lens on the R1 impresses me.
I've been travelling like crazy over the past years...
Sounds great. Been some time since I came upon someone with such an extensive travelling track record. When I was in Canada, I met a couple where the guy had to consider getting a new passport, since all the pages in his old was filled with Visa stamps :-)

I recently came by the book "Unforgettable places to see", by Steve Davey. Should you need more inspiration of places lacking, you could go by this one.
This is an assertion which you can't prove in any way.
As the lens of the R1 is sweet at the 24-120 mm equivalent, I think it could run into trouble at the increased resolution of the A350; and its full size APS-C sensor, (23.6 x 15.8 mm, vs. 21.5 x 14.4 mm sensor in the R1).
It all boils down to what you are going to do with your pictures.
Indeed, you made a wise choice. Getting the best camera for the price, really learning all about it, and then travelling around recording the different places. I usually do the error of going for too high-level gear that I can’t afford the journey :-/

You seem to do your homework, so no matter what you choose, I’m sure that you’ll land something to keep you happy.
The D2H with its 4MP of resolution would have performed very,
very poorly here.
This is where Pro's found the quality of pixels, in many cases better than their 10 MP D200. So the output from the D2H was preferable. High MP isn't everything. And A3 size is generally a normal size for a SLR to cope with.

I could easily imagine Sony putting a strong AA filter on their CCD chip on the A350, and a weaker one on the CMOS sensor of the A700. It would have a simple explanation; the A700 is built to higher standards; and is in the semi-pro segment. Advanced users put their equipment through more scrutiny.

And sony are known for not giving the users real RAW imagery; the output in their DSLR’s generally have Noise Reduction applied, so not a true digital negative.

The Pentax DA* 16-50/2.8 is designed in cooperation with Tokina. Sample variation has been an issue, but else here is a review of the Tokina in Nikon mount :

http://www.photozone.de/Reviews/46-nikon--nikkor-aps-c/274-tokina-af-16-50mm-f28-at-x-pro-dx-nikon-lens-test-report--review

Good points in the thread also by Graydon

--
kind regards
Sune
 
not sure that I understood your point...

are you saying
A - you cannot compare cross system at all.

or

B - you can compare purely lens resolution even across the systems

I agree with A, even though in my understanding the camera/lens
combination gives you the resolution figures that Klaus reports...

in any case I would disagree with B, and that point is obvious, as
you can see for Canon lenses which are tested with 8MP Rebel XT no
lens goes beyond 2100 or so... while on K10D with Pentax the top of
the range is about 2300 or so... Nikon with D200 is slightly less,
but that is due to stronger AA filter which reduces the maximum
resolution available on that camera... so 12 MP in A700 should
definitely bring higher numbers to tests done for Sony lenses, but in
principle lens tests can only reliably compared within the camera
system, so I agree with that... but I'd also expect higher max scores
taken with 12MP Sony camera, which did not yet happen...
The point simply is that all these lenses have less resolution than the one needed by today's set of 8-14MP DSLRs, so the camera is not the limiting factor anymore.

In other words, the photozone tests measure the limitations of the lens and not the limitations of the camera, although it is true that different in-camera processing (some cameras probably sharpen more than others) the test results may be affected. These tests should be done at lowest ISO with RAW images.
--

Alfred
 
The R1 was a sweet package those years ago, but I can understand why
a DSLR would tempt now. I think I would feel a bit restricted with
it, what if one wanted to go wider than 24 mm equivalent ?
Easy: shoot a panorama sequence and merge with PTGUI. I can get as wide as I want. And the best of it all is that the resulting image will have a very high resolution and all geometric aberrations will automatically have been corrected.
Or I came by a great macro scene ?
The R1 can do macro.
Or needed further than 120 mm ?
Yes, this is the great weakness of the R1. The 1.7x teleconverter is ridicolusly bulky.
All options
that could be applicable to architecture scenery, or landscape
capture. This is where a DSLR has more creative options. I’m not even
sure manual focus is possible with the R1.
But interesting that a VCL-DEH08R Wide Conversion Lens (0.8x), 390 g,
can be purchased for it.
I never bought that, because it is cumbersome to use and I can get easily wider than 24mm with the panorama technique mentioned above.
The Pentax DA* 16-50/2.8 is designed in cooperation with Tokina.
Sample variation has been an issue, but else here is a review of the
Tokina in Nikon mount :

http://www.photozone.de/Reviews/46-nikon--nikkor-aps-c/274-tokina-af-16-50mm-f28-at-x-pro-dx-nikon-lens-test-report--review
If you look at this test you will see that this lens performs not so well (high barrel distortion, not so stellar resolution figures, chromatic aberrations).

In any case, should it be the K20, I would need the Pentax 16-45 and the 50-135 lenses (the Pentax 50-200 is not good). Total expense 1020 Euro for the body + about 350 Euro for the 16-45 and around 700 Euro for the 50-135 = more than 2000 Euro :-(

By contrast, the A350 body costs around 600 Euro, the CZ16-80 another 600 Euro + a 70-200 or 70-300 lens which costs $180-$800 depending on what you buy.
--

Alfred
 
The R1 was a sweet package those years ago, but I can understand why
a DSLR would tempt now. I think I would feel a bit restricted with
it, what if one wanted to go wider than 24 mm equivalent ?
Easy: shoot a panorama sequence and merge with PTGUI. I can get as
wide as I want. And the best of it all is that the resulting image
will have a very high resolution and all geometric aberrations will
automatically have been corrected.
Btw, what happened to this photo ? are they stitched together ?
http://www.molon.de/galleries/China/Gansu/Dunhuang/Gobisunset/img.php?pic=7

As much as I admire all the places that you’ve been. I think you could move your architecture photography to the next level. When I went to the Taj Mahal to do photography, I went early in the morning to get the best light.
Some of your shots look tilted, like you didn’t take ‘em spot on :
http://www.molon.de/galleries/India/UP/Agra/TajMahal/img.php?pic=14
http://www.molon.de/galleries/India/UP/Agra/TajMahal/img.php?pic=13
http://www.molon.de/galleries/India/UP/Agra/TajMahal/img.php?pic=2

Try to compare to Boz’s site, (and he’s just a happy amateur photographer like the rest of us) : http://photo.bdimitrov.de/galleries/places/India/index.html

When I see your shots, its like a journalistic proof of places seen, I would prefer fewer pictures and more emphasis on the single shot.

I hope this comes out right, it is just a general critique and takes nothing away from your extraordinary travel scenery and formidable places visited. Like I said, I’ll keep your site in mind, for inspiration of places to see.

When you were in Tibet, did you suffer any altitude sickness, and how did you get there, via plane, bus or train ?

--
kind regards
Sune



“The Pentax K20D, Canon EOS 1D Mark III, and Nikon D3 lead the pack in DSLRs for serious HDR photographers.” Jack Howard, administrator at Popphoto.com's forums and online technical editor
 
I'm just surprised that you would be shooting landscape/architectual work with an APS sensor camera. Main problem is perspective is really hard to get with the crop issue in wide lenses.

As for PC lenses a 35mm PC lens is totally useless for an APS sensor camera. Trust me on this, my brother was voted one of the top 30 architectual shooters in the world a couple of years ago. He works mainly in large format (4x5) but has a Hassy system as well. He shot 35mm many years ago (he is 57) using a Pentax KX and a Pentax 28mm PC lens. He also teaches the Zone System at the Chicago Institute of Art. Just recently he acquired a Canon 5D and 6 lenses as a portable system. Perspective control in 35mm format size means you need a minimum of a 28mm PC lens (35mm is borderline). Unfortunately with the crop that would mean you would need a 17mm PC lens for an APS sensor camera to get similar results (still would not match the PC of a 4x5 camera).

All this being said when you choose a camera just remember it is going to be a temporary camera till you get something that will do the job a lot better.
Kent Gittings
 
For what you want to do you would be much better off with a FF sensor camera, like a 5D. PC lenses for one thing would be usable then. Of the pro architectural shooters I know who dabble in DLSRs most only use zoom lenses up to 2x-3x and nothing any wider (10-20, 12-24, and such). Image control in the optics is much easier to design then. I don't use anything more than 3x in my wildlife/motorsports shooting. I have a couple of travel lenses that are more like 10x (Tokina 24-200 and Tamron 18-200), but I don't expect to be doing anything that I would sell from those. Otherwise I use F1.8-2.8 prime lenses, adding a TC if I need more reach. I use both a Pentax K10D and a Canon 20D, with the Canon mostly for my hobby of astrophotography because it has a Baader filter over the sensor. I used to shoot a Minolta Maxxum 9 before going digital so I know what is good and not good in FF type lenses for Sony/Minolta.
Kent Gittings
 
Btw, what happened to this photo ? are they stitched together ?
http://www.molon.de/galleries/China/Gansu/Dunhuang/Gobisunset/img.php?pic=7
Yes. What you are seeing is the effect of the polariser filter. The field of view is very large.
As much as I admire all the places that you’ve been. I think you
could move your architecture photography to the next level. When I
went to the Taj Mahal to do photography, I went early in the morning
to get the best light.
Early morning when we were there the visibility was horrible (very misty).
When I see your shots, its like a journalistic proof of places seen,
I would prefer fewer pictures and more emphasis on the single shot.
True, the photos also serve a documentary purpose - to give an idea of the places seen. The artistic side plays a role of course as well.
When you were in Tibet, did you suffer any altitude sickness, and how
did you get there, via plane, bus or train ?
By plane from Chengdu. I did indeed suffer from altitude sickness in Lhasa, but that happens when your time is limited and you don't have enough of it to acclimatise. Also, you need to know how to acclimatise (some techniques work better than other).
--

Alfred
 
To my knowledge Nikon doesn't have a 14MP camera with live preview. I
already have a 10MP camera and should I upgrade it would be a 14MP
one (I would skip the 12MP cameras now, given that affordable 14MP
models are available now).
Did you read about the new popphoto's A350 review? It's so called
14MP sensor captures less details than its own 12MP brother A700,
much less than K20D and only on par with 10MP 40D. All the high ISO
shots above ISO800 requires heavy noise reduction, thus reducing the
resolution even further.

And it looks like you have great resistance towards prime lens, and
that's pity really, especially for landscape photography. True, some
zooms are good; but a good quality prime is even better.
Hi

Well to me it looks like Pentax K20D gets beaten by Sony A350 and even the 12,3 MP A700 in resolution!!

Look here for compartison of A700 and K20D:

http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/pentaxk20d/page33.asp

Camera Measurement Absolute
resolution Extinction
resolution
Pentax K20D Horizontal LPH 2250 * 2400
Vertical LPH 2250 * 2400
Sony DSLR-A700 Horizontal LPH * 2200 2900
Vertical LPH 2100 2800
Olympus E-3 Horizontal LPH 2100 * 2400
Vertical LPH * 1800 2200
Canon EOS 450D Horizontal LPH 2300 * 2500
Vertical LPH 2200 * 2500

Look here for comparison of A350 and K20D:

http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/sonydslra350/page30.asp

Camera Measurement Absolute
resolution Extinction
resolution
Sony DSLR-A350 Horizontal LPH 2300 2700
Vertical LPH 2200 2500
Canon EOS 450D Horizontal LPH 2300 * 2500
Vertical LPH 2200 * 2500
Pentax K20D Horizontal LPH 2250 * 2400
Vertical LPH 2250 * 2400
Sony DSLR-A200 Horizontal LPH 2200 * 2700
Vertical LPH 1950 * 2500

I have used A350 and have A700. They are both fine cameras. Though i would anytime skip liveview and go for the A700.

Kind regards

David Bo

--

 
Just to put the kit 18-70 lens quality in perspective, heres samples
against a tamron zoom on the a700
http://www.dcresource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=37240
Thanks for the link, a fun discussing. And seems the users know what they’re talking about.

I would generally not recommend the A350. A 14.2 CCD sensor has horrible high Iso characteristics. The A300 would be a better choice.

--
kind regards
Sune



Trusted Reviews : ”K20 most powerful semi-pro DSLR in the world'”
 
You are posting on a Pentax forum... I will bite and give you what I
think are some more negatives to the Sony system:
Makes sense.
-Proprietary flash shoe
-Proprietary USB cable
-Proprietary power cable
-Have you looked a the price of the good glass?
-Have you looked at the reviews of the lower end glass?
Minolta was the only one with a more modern flash shoe--this is not a negative. I shoot both Sony and Pentax and with a Minolta adapter I can use my Sony flash on my K100D.

As for the price of good glass, in Canada Pentax seems to have brought their prices in line with Nikon (yikes!). The 12-24/4 has doubled in price.
I work for Sony and have shot with the A350 and A700. Even with my
employee discounts, I chose to buy Pentax.
Don't wish to offend, but this sounds disloyal, not so much the action as the announcing it to the world.

Back to the OP question--

If you think you may get serious about photography, and start buying multiple lenses, flash etc. learn about the lenses and think about your purchases as a system--do you like Pentax or Sony's offerings better?

Nowadays though Tamrons 17-50 and 70-200, available for both systems possibly make the choice harder.

No system is perfect. No system does everything.

The K20D is in my opinion a better camera than the A350. I shoot with A100's and wouldn't trade them for an A350, (but I don't like liveview.)

If I were starting out today I would have a hard time deciding on a primary system, but it would be Pentax or Sony.

I stick with Sony because I can't part with my Minolta lenses, the flash system seems to have an edge, and the 30/1.4 is cancelled.

I bought the 12-24/4, fisheye, and 70/2.4 because Sony doesn't have a decent ultra-wide, or a small affordable portrait lens.
 

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