Extreme cold and camera hangs?

Does anybody know if camera hangs can be temperature related? My 350D has been failing repeatedly when trying to remote control it via PC and USB in -20C. It only takes so many shots before the camera will just be hanging with "busy" blinking on the LCD. This happens with both DSLR Remote Pro and GBTimelapse. The setup has been working fine in warmer temperatures, and the camera operates fine in the cold - except when controlled by USB. What can be going wrong?

Are you using the flash?

Nope... it is for auroral photography, so flash would be a waste

Yes, I have had the camera hang in extreme cold.

Once it was due to my 50mm f/1.8 autofocus motor or gears freezing up. When I changed lenses it was fine. And the 50 eventually thawed out and works fine now.

At least twice more, I never did figure out what it was. The camera just refused to work in the cold. This was at about 10 deg or so F and having the camera out for several hours.

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I need to do some testing to find out whether it is the camera, the laptop or perhaps the battery getting cold that is causing the issues. I assume you weren't remote controlling your camera (via USB) when it locked up, but I don't remember having it happen other than during remote control which is why I suspect the USB communication with the laptop to be the problem. Maybe I am wrong, but I hope not because I just spent $365 on two Pclix boxes to operate the camera without USB fuss.

On another note I also have a problem with a malfunctioning autofocus motor on my 50mm f/1.8 - for very good reasons. I dropped it on the floor.

CityLights said:

Yes, I have had the camera hang in extreme cold.

Once it was due to my 50mm f/1.8 autofocus motor or gears freezing
up. When I changed lenses it was fine. And the 50 eventually thawed
out and works fine now.

At least twice more, I never did figure out what it was. The camera
just refused to work in the cold. This was at about 10 deg or so F
and having the camera out for several hours.

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Click to expand...

Poul Jensen said:

issues. I assume you weren't remote controlling your camera (via USB)
when it locked up

Click to expand...

No, mine was just a long time out in the cold. No remote shooting.

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CityLights
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but it has been because the battery just got too cold (eclipse a couple of weeks ago where it was -15 degrees C) . I switched in a warmer battery and everything worked fine. The problem with the battery getting cold is that it just dies, mid-function, with no warning, and I had only had the camera outside for about one and a half hours, and was taking only my fifth or sixth picture. Luckily I had a warm battery inside my jacket.
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Beautiful light is a precious thing

I now suspect a battery issue. I am using homemade external packages with camcorder Li-ion that have 3-4 times the capacity of ordinary camera batteries. I can leave those out all day in subzero temperatures and they still have power to run the cameras just fine which is why I didn't suspect a battery problem to begin with. But when doing aurora time lapses I try to minimize the interval between frames ( 4 seconds), basically keeping the camera busy and drawing power from the battery almost continuously. And the battery chemistry that sustains the voltage must be slower in the cold after all, meaning that when draining it at a (relatively) high rate the voltage will start dropping even if the battery isn't depleted - it needs a little time to recover and more time in the cold. I verified that the battery voltage drops during a short interval time lapse (from 7.6V to 7.2V when doing 720 frames in 1450 seconds in 10F) and starts climbing back up as soon as the camera is stopped.

Question: How do these cameras normally respond when battery voltage runs low? During normal use I can only remember having my cameras power down, not hanging without powering down as they do here - that's the other thing that has been throwing me off. Maybe the hang is more likely to happen during remote control? Did your cameras lock-up without powering down?

Which compact flash card are you using? Some aren't rated for cold temperatures.

Ed Ellks said:

Which compact flash card are you using? Some aren't rated for cold
temperatures.

Click to expand...

Varying. When reproducing the hang today it was a Sandisk Ultra II (4 GB). However, the card isn't even used. The photos are downloaded directly to a laptop.

Poul Jensen said:

Varying. When reproducing the hang today it was a Sandisk Ultra II (4
GB). However, the card isn't even used. The photos are downloaded
directly to a laptop.

Click to expand...

Thanks, Poul. I had heard of others having similar problems when it was very cold, but it sounds like that possibility has been eliminated. I'm interested to hear if a conclusive root cause is determined.

Can you tell more about those packages?

TIA

Poul Jensen said:

I now suspect a battery issue. I am using homemade external packages
with camcorder Li-ion that have 3-4 times the capacity of ordinary
camera batteries. I can leave those out all day in subzero
temperatures and they still have power to run the cameras just fine
which is why I didn't suspect a battery problem to begin with.

Click to expand...

What do you expect?

A temperature of -20C is -20C degrees colder than the 350D's operating range specification of 0-40C.
The camera is not designed to work below freezing, period.
If it works at all and if only for a little while, consider yourself lucky.

Try wrapping it in some kind of a warming blanket or some other equivalent idea.
Joe

I think we all know this. However, some here are interested what are the real limits in using the camera, preferably of course without damaging it.

I've read some articles regarding cold and camera. There are a few things to note

• Batteries run out really quickly, so keep an extra one close to body (inside your jacket)
• LCD starts to lag in extreme cold, use hand warmers to keep camera warm.

here is a thread about shooting in the cold
http://photo.net/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg?msg_id=00OUBb

hope that helps

Robert 55 said:

Can you tell more about those packages?

TIA

Click to expand...

Sure. The "battery package" is nothing but a camcorder battery mounted on a Lenmar adapter plate. The adapter plate is held together by screws; just unscrew and solder a wire to the appropriate terminals. Cut a little hole for wire to exit, and tie a knot on the wire inside the plate so that the solderings are safe from outside pull on the wire. On the other end of the wire you need a dummy to insert into the battery compartment of your camera - the shell of an old battery suits the purpose. Now, if you solder the wires inside the adapter plate without unsoldering the ones that are already there you can pop the adapter plate with battery directly onto the Lenmar charger to charge the battery. The Lenmar chargers come with some adapter plates, and spares can be bought for $5 a piece e.g. at Amazon.

I've used two Canon BP-535 replacements ($30 at Sterlingtek) which are rated at 4500mAh. Sadly, with Sterlingtek's disappointing approach to overrate their batteries the actual capacity is probably no better than the 3500mAh of the original Canon battery. The BP-535 also happen to fit on the charger for the BP-511 battery used in several other Canon cameras. Due to the much higher capacity these batteries can sustain sufficient voltage much longer in the cold than ordinary size camera batteries. I also decided to use an old JVC BN-V428 battery I had lying around, and this was the battery I was using when the camera hangs occurred. Being much older (maybe 4 years!), slightly smaller and only 7.2V (vs. 7.4 for the Canons) this is bound to die faster. So the BP-535 may still be all I need, but nevertheless I did some searching and found the Canon BP-970G which is rated at 7200mAh. That will make my new battery package.

I had a 300D shipped to me last month and left outdoors in the cold by the postal service - what did seem to hang was the shutter. I let it warm up for about half an hour and it worked fine again.

A reuseable hand warmer (the kind you boil to reset, and flex a little disk to start) are great in these situations. Especially since you have an off-camera battery back, wrap it in something with good insulation (a cooler-lunch bag is great for this, light weight and packs small). Start one up and drop the battery in. Most of these are good for an hour or two, and that should let your battery do the drain rate you are trying for.

BTW: What do you use for a camera support? I have had some bad luck with some Manfrotto gear (low end, digi line) because the plastic on the lever lock collars becomes brittle in -20. Those italians just don't know real cold weather!

I do have a styrofoam cooler box padded with foam rubber for the purpose and put in hand warmers... Unfortunately the kind I have require oxygen, so they don't stay warm for long enclosed in the box. I'll have to look for something with different chemistry. However, the battery I used had been lying on the shelf for maybe 4-5 years, and I just bought new, higher capacity ones (rated to 7000mAh... by a Hong Kong seller on eBay, so who knows what they really are ). They should do a much better job.

I've had mixed luck with tripods too. I am experimenting mounting the camera on a telescope mount to be able to pan it smoothly, but the motor drives are struggling in the cold too. For ordinary tripods I'm currently using a couple of Velbons (Ultra Maxi/Luxi series) that have been working fine in the cold. One broke for other reasons though; nevertheless I got another one just like it (Luxi-F) because I can't find any other tripod this versatile.

The OP questions were.

"Does anybody know if camera hangs can be temperature related? My 350D has been failing repeatedly when trying to remote control it via PC and USB in -20C. It only takes so many shots before the camera will just be hanging with "busy" blinking on the LCD. This happens with both DSLR Remote Pro and GBTimelapse. The setup has been working fine in warmer temperatures, and the camera operates fine in the cold - except when controlled by USB. What can be going wrong?"

The original poster asked if camera hangs can be temperature related and I showed why hangs are expected to happen. When it is held in your hands I am sure body heat from your hands increases the usable time of operation and allow it to be used below the minimum operating spec temp.

Obviously any camera may get used in adverse conditions, but one should expect it to fail.

In extreme cold, steady rain or extreme humidity one can expect the camera to fail and may or may not work ever again without repair. Using anything beyond its recommended specifications is never recommended.
Joe