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David,

What sync speed do you typically use for HS basketball games? Do you mix ambient with the flash? What do you place your flashes?

I know with powerful strobes, NBA shooters can shoot 4 to 6 stops below the ambient at ISO100. But with less powerful battery powered flashes, I am not sure one can rely on the flash alone.

That brings us another problem. Most Canon DSLRs are CMOS based and do not have the electronic shutters so the x-sync speed is low, like 1/250. The 1/250 shutter speed cannot stop the motion. Using high speed sync (FP flash) is not an option for studio strobes or Pocket Wizard triggered flash units.

Even though the high speed sync is possible, the battery powered flash (ex. 580EX II) will not matter much when mounted far enough on the stands.

There are two possible scenarios.
1. With the high shutter speed and high speed sync.
2. With the low x-sync and use the flash to stop motion.

With #1, the flash cannot be mounted too far away.
With #2, the ambient cannot be mixed in or ghosting will occur.

Can you share what setup and setting do you use?

Thank you.
--
Nelson Chen
http://pbase.com/nelsonc
http://NelsonChenPhotography.com/
100% RAW shooter with Capture One Pro



2007 Colorado Renaissance Festival photo gallery:
http://www.pbase.com/nelsonc/2007_colorado_renaissance_festival&page=all
 
Daniel how many strobes are you using and where? The problem I have with the MKII N is that the high ISO's get so muddy.

Thanks,
Three
 
Daniel,

Those are great images. Do you use studio strobes or battery powered flashes? Where do you place those strobes? How do you trigger them?

On the shots with the shutter speed 1/400, were they shot with the ambient or flash? If they were shot with flash, did you use the high speed sync?

On the shots with the shutter speed 1/250, was the motion stopped by the flash or the shutter speed alone? If the motion was stopped by the flash, how do manage the "ghosting" problem created by the ambient?
--
Nelson Chen
http://pbase.com/nelsonc
http://NelsonChenPhotography.com/
100% RAW shooter with Capture One Pro



2007 Colorado Renaissance Festival photo gallery:
http://www.pbase.com/nelsonc/2007_colorado_renaissance_festival&page=all
 
bullet1 said:
David,

What sync speed do you typically use for HS basketball games? Do you
mix ambient with the flash? What do you place your flashes?
Click to expand...
When strobing, I'm generally using 1/250. The strobes are stoping the action, not the shutter speed. If I'm lighting 1/2 the court, which I typically do, then I put them above the audience and aim them towards the top of the key at an imaginary point about 10 ft. off the court.
bullet1 said:
I know with powerful strobes, NBA shooters can shoot 4 to 6 stops
below the ambient at ISO100. But with less powerful battery powered
flashes, I am not sure one can rely on the flash alone.
Click to expand...
The key is to be at least 2 1/2 stops difference between ambient and strobe. Since the lighting in some of these gyms is so awful, a pair of flashes is more than adequate.
bullet1 said:
That brings us another problem. Most Canon DSLRs are CMOS based and
do not have the electronic shutters so the x-sync speed is low, like
1/250. The 1/250 shutter speed cannot stop the motion. Using high
speed sync (FP flash) is not an option for studio strobes or Pocket
Wizard triggered flash units.
Click to expand...
See above.
bullet1 said:
Even though the high speed sync is possible, the battery powered
flash (ex. 580EX II) will not matter much when mounted far enough on
the stands.
Click to expand...
bullet1 said:
Not true, see above.
Click to expand...
 
Thank you for the reply. Do you use studio strobes or battery powered shoe mounted flashes such as the ones made by Canon, Nikon, Sunpak or Vivitar?

If you use dedicated flashes from Canon or Nikon, do you ever use high speed sync with off camera flashes for sporting events?

What ISO speed do you use? Do you have any samples to share?

Thanks,
Nelson

--
Nelson Chen
http://pbase.com/nelsonc
http://NelsonChenPhotography.com/
100% RAW shooter with Capture One Pro



2007 Colorado Renaissance Festival photo gallery:
http://www.pbase.com/nelsonc/2007_colorado_renaissance_festival&page=all
 
threeofakind said:
Daniel how many strobes are you using and where? The problem I have
with the MKII N is that the high ISO's get so muddy.

Thanks,
Three
Click to expand...
I'm using 1 Alien Bee 800 @ full power and 1 Vivitar 285HV at 1/2 power. The AB-800 is mounted in a balcony about 5-6 feet to the left of the net and bounced off the ceiling above the key. The Vivitar is clamped to the light stand the AB-800 is on and bounced off the back wall behind the net and provides fill. They are set off with a pocket wizard. Before I got the AB-800 I used 2 Vivitar 285's, One shooting direct from the balcony and one bounced both set to 1/2 power and I was using the SV-4 adapter that is for house current for each flash.
--
Markov: The sub is Swiss.

Jackson: So they occasionally catch fire, but they keep perfect time. pause Sorry. I think I've been hanging around Jack O'Neill too much.
http://www.pbase.com/daniel_jackson/root
Pbase supporter
 
bullet1 said:
Daniel,

Those are great images. Do you use studio strobes or battery powered
flashes?
Click to expand...
Alien Bee 800 connected to 110.
bullet1 said:
Where do you place those strobes? How do you trigger them?
Click to expand...
See my post to three above for details. Here are some photos of the setup. Really very simple and fast to setup.






bullet1 said:
On the shots with the shutter speed 1/400, were they shot with the
ambient or flash? If they were shot with flash, did you use the
high speed sync?
Click to expand...
No I used a Vivitar 285HV so I didn't have to worry about HS sync. I was able to use 1/400 with the MK2 and not get the second shutter in the shot.
bullet1 said:
On the shots with the shutter speed 1/250, was the motion stopped by
the flash or the shutter speed alone? If the motion was stopped by
the flash, how do manage the "ghosting" problem created by the
ambient?
Click to expand...
With the AB-800 the flash duration is 1/3000 of a second. The flash stops the action as long as you can shoot 4 stops above amviant, which I can do. The Vivitar on 1/2 power also has a very fast duration.
bullet1 said:
--
Nelson Chen
http://pbase.com/nelsonc
http://NelsonChenPhotography.com/
100% RAW shooter with Capture One Pro



2007 Colorado Renaissance Festival photo gallery:
http://www.pbase.com/nelsonc/2007_colorado_renaissance_festival&page=all
Click to expand...
--
Markov: The sub is Swiss.

Jackson: So they occasionally catch fire, but they keep perfect time. pause Sorry. I think I've been hanging around Jack O'Neill too much.
http://www.pbase.com/daniel_jackson/root
Pbase supporter
 
Daniel Jackson said:
Daniel Jackson said:
On the shots with the shutter speed 1/400, were they shot with the
ambient or flash? If they were shot with flash, did you use the
high speed sync?
Click to expand...
No I used a Vivitar 285HV so I didn't have to worry about HS sync. I
was able to use 1/400 with the MK2 and not get the second shutter in
the shot.
Click to expand...
Did you use the Vivitar supplied sync cord, PC-1, to connect between the Vivitar 285HV and the Pocket Wizard?

Do you have the regular Pocket Wizard Plus II or the Pocket Wizard Multimax 32 for the second curtain flash support?
Daniel Jackson said:
Daniel Jackson said:
On the shots with the shutter speed 1/250, was the motion stopped by
the flash or the shutter speed alone? If the motion was stopped by
the flash, how do manage the "ghosting" problem created by the
ambient?
Click to expand...
With the AB-800 the flash duration is 1/3000 of a second. The flash
stops the action as long as you can shoot 4 stops above amviant,
which I can do. The Vivitar on 1/2 power also has a very fast
duration.
Click to expand...
Do you feel the Vivitar has a shorter or longer flash duration than the AB-800 at the same power level (ex. 1/2)?

--
Nelson Chen
http://pbase.com/nelsonc
http://NelsonChenPhotography.com/
100% RAW shooter with Capture One Pro



2007 Colorado Renaissance Festival photo gallery:
http://www.pbase.com/nelsonc/2007_colorado_renaissance_festival&page=all
 
There is no right or wrong way to shoot. It's what works for you. The common thing most sport shooters will say about shooting strobes it it makes them better at capturing the peak action. I use to love 8 FPS but I found sometimes that wasn't fast enough to get THE shot. Now I shoot quality vs quantity. I use to shoot 400+ Raw shots and spend a few hours processing them and picking the best 100-150 to post for the school. Now I shoot 150-200 Raw shots and have a hard time cutting down to 100-150. The quality is so much better. YMMV
--
Markov: The sub is Swiss.

Jackson: So they occasionally catch fire, but they keep perfect time. pause Sorry. I think I've been hanging around Jack O'Neill too much.
http://www.pbase.com/daniel_jackson/root
Pbase supporter
 
bullet1 said:
Daniel Jackson said:
bullet1 said:
On the shots with the shutter speed 1/400, were they shot with the
ambient or flash? If they were shot with flash, did you use the
high speed sync?
Click to expand...
No I used a Vivitar 285HV so I didn't have to worry about HS sync. I
was able to use 1/400 with the MK2 and not get the second shutter in
the shot.
Click to expand...
Did you use the Vivitar supplied sync cord, PC-1, to connect between
the Vivitar 285HV and the Pocket Wizard?
Click to expand...
You can, I have a little longer one.
bullet1 said:
Do you have the regular Pocket Wizard Plus II or the Pocket Wizard
Multimax 32 for the second curtain flash support?
Click to expand...
Just the regular PW Plus ll
bullet1 said:
bullet1 said:
bullet1 said:
On the shots with the shutter speed 1/250, was the motion stopped by
the flash or the shutter speed alone? If the motion was stopped by
the flash, how do manage the "ghosting" problem created by the
ambient?
Click to expand...
With the AB-800 the flash duration is 1/3000 of a second. The flash
stops the action as long as you can shoot 4 stops above ambiant,
which I can do. The Vivitar on 1/2 power also has a very fast
duration.
Click to expand...
Do you feel the Vivitar has a shorter or longer flash duration than
the AB-800 at the same power level (ex. 1/2)?
Click to expand...
With the AB's the duration gets longer (slower) as you reduce power, with the Vivitar it gets shorter (faster). The way I have it set up I think they are both very close.
bullet1 said:
--
Nelson Chen
http://pbase.com/nelsonc
http://NelsonChenPhotography.com/
100% RAW shooter with Capture One Pro



2007 Colorado Renaissance Festival photo gallery:
http://www.pbase.com/nelsonc/2007_colorado_renaissance_festival&page=all
Click to expand...
--
Markov: The sub is Swiss.

Jackson: So they occasionally catch fire, but they keep perfect time. pause Sorry. I think I've been hanging around Jack O'Neill too much.
http://www.pbase.com/daniel_jackson/root
Pbase supporter
 
Daniel Jackson said:
I use to shoot 400+ Raw shots and
spend a few hours processing them and picking the best 100-150 to
post for the school. Now I shoot 150-200 Raw shots and have a hard
time cutting down to 100-150. The quality is so much better. YMMV
Click to expand...
The problem is that you'll never know what great shots you missed because you never took them. In basketball what you think will be the best shot may actually happen a fraction of a second after you take the shot. You can't know what will happen next.

Blocks for example are especially difficult since the shooter is doing his or her best to avoid the block by delaying the shot while the blocker is also trying to delay the block until the shot. A lot of things can happen in a second of basketball.

I got lots of great shots at 3 fps with my D30 and thought I was getting the absolute best shots. Once I got a 1D and started shooting at 8 fps I discovered there was much more going on than I realized. I was also able to be picky about trivial aspects of the composition like the relation of the ball to the player's head and basket, the expression on the defender's face (are their eyes wide open or half closed?). and many other things that are just impossible to evaluate when you take the shot.
 
bullet1 said:
Thank you for the reply. Do you use studio strobes or battery
powered shoe mounted flashes such as the ones made by Canon, Nikon,
Sunpak or Vivitar?
Click to expand...
Sure, I have a pair of AB 800's which I use for the studio as well as larger venues as well as a couple of Viv 285hv and superclamps which serve as my main gym setup. The Viv's are lightweight, portable, easy to set up, and you can even run them off of the AA's if you need to. At lower power you can even get a couple fps with this arrangement. Mind you, I'm only illuminating 1/2 the court.

Alternatively, you could use any of the high end Nikon, Canon, Sunpak or Vivs. I've had the Vivs for years and they were inexpensive and reliable.
bullet1 said:
If you use dedicated flashes from Canon or Nikon, do you ever use
high speed sync with off camera flashes for sporting events?
Click to expand...
Nope.
bullet1 said:
What ISO speed do you use? Do you have any samples to share?
Click to expand...
That really depends on the venue, ambient light as well as your set up.. In dark gyms you may still be at ISO 800-1600 f 2.8 - 5.6. In some places you might be shooting at ISO's of 400-800.

Here's a link to a couple of images I shot recently at a prep-school. Note the first is shot in ambient light to give you an idea of how poor the light was and the second was shot in the same gym with the Viv's mounted at 1/2 court.



 
David -- couldn't have said any better. It's been said many times that..

ISO only increases the quantity of light. It does absolutly nothing to enhance the quality of light. For that you need to create it if it's not available. I too experiment with various lighting setups. When it's safe to do so I use two Alien Bee 1600 monolights. In the older or smaller gyms I use two 580EX mounted on super clamps up in the stands.

David ...please share your experience with the Q Flash. I've often thought these would be better than my 580's. Sample pics or links to galleries would also be nice.

Thanks,
--
Kevin Krows
 
In 7 years I have never been told that flash/strobes bothered the athletes. If the lights a where they are supposed to be it's pretty transparent to everyone. I have seen studio photographers who know absolutley nothing about sports or sports photography ejected from games for popping flash directly into the eyes of athletes atop their flash frames.
--
Kevin Krows
 
Kevin Krows said:
In 7 years I have never been told that flash/strobes bothered the
athletes.
Click to expand...
But then you say....
Kevin Krows said:
I have seen studio photographers who know
absolutley nothing about sports or sports photography ejected from
games for popping flash directly into the eyes of athletes atop their
flash frames.
Click to expand...
Are you saying that your flash/strobes aren't a problem but flashes from other photographers have been a problem?
 
Scott Larson said:
Daniel Jackson said:
I use to shoot 400+ Raw shots and
spend a few hours processing them and picking the best 100-150 to
post for the school. Now I shoot 150-200 Raw shots and have a hard
time cutting down to 100-150. The quality is so much better. YMMV
Click to expand...
The problem is that you'll never know what great shots you missed
because you never took them. In basketball what you think will be the
best shot may actually happen a fraction of a second after you take
the shot. You can't know what will happen next.
Click to expand...
Been there done that. Shot 8FPS for 5 years. I'll never go back, at least not in HS gyms. In better lit gyms, not a problem.
Scott Larson said:
Blocks for example are especially difficult since the shooter is
doing his or her best to avoid the block by delaying the shot while
the blocker is also trying to delay the block until the shot. A lot
of things can happen in a second of basketball.
Click to expand...
I know, I shot a 10D for a year till I got a MK2.
Scott Larson said:
I got lots of great shots at 3 fps with my D30 and thought I was
getting the absolute best shots. Once I got a 1D and started shooting
at 8 fps I discovered there was much more going on than I realized. I
was also able to be picky about trivial aspects of the composition
like the relation of the ball to the player's head and basket, the
expression on the defender's face (are their eyes wide open or half
closed?). and many other things that are just impossible to evaluate
when you take the shot.
Click to expand...
--
Markov: The sub is Swiss.

Jackson: So they occasionally catch fire, but they keep perfect time. pause Sorry. I think I've been hanging around Jack O'Neill too much.
http://www.pbase.com/daniel_jackson/root
Pbase supporter
 
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