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Switch do D3 - lose a ton of $$$ doing it?

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bikinchris said:
rwbaron said:
Mori said:
The 40D is quite decent but its a crop and I really want my 16mm back.
Click to expand...
Save yourself a ton of money and get a 40D with the EFS10~22 (a
phenomenal lens). You'll get a camera with much better AF over the
10D and 5D, better viewfinder, instant startup, 6+ FPS, 10 MP with
excellent DR and high ISO performance, great live view, 3" LCD,
Canon's pro menu system, etc., etc.
I made the jump from the 10D and was amazed with the difference and
the EFS 10~22 is an outstanding lens that gives you the 16mm FOV
you're missing. Pick up the the 40D now and the 5D replacement when
announced. It could be an incredible system for you and you'll have
less money in the 40D, 5DII and EFS10~22 than in the price of the D3
alone.
Click to expand...
And much less of a camera for most purposes too.

--
Chris, Broussard, LA
Click to expand...
You have to define "most purposes". For me, I have absolutely no interest in a D3 or 1D series camera. Too big and heavy for what I do and the features are wasted on my style and type of shooting as even the 40D or D300 are beyond my photographic abilities. The only thing a D3 or 1D offers for me is a much lighter bank account, a sore back and maybe some worthless ego boost.

The law of diminishing returns applies to photography as much as with other tools. Do you really think you could pick out the 13x19 D3 prints from several laid out on a table that included the same from a 5D? Sure, the D3 and 1D cameras may allow you to get some shots you can't get or would have more difficulty getting with the lesser cameras and they will take more abuse but is that really important to the OP? Let's be realistic in that he's shooting with a 5 year old 10D that apparently has not failed him so how much of a factor can this be? There are many pro's shooting with 2 year old 5D's with tens of thousands of clicks on the shutters that have seen plenty of abuse.

If the OP needs 9 FPS, clean ISO 6400, state of the art AF and the best possible weather sealing then so be it, he needs a D3 or 1D3 camera. If not, his money might be better spent on glass or travel to get those great images.

Just trying to be practical but I know that's not always popular on these forums.

Bob
--
http://www.pbase.com/rwbaron
My PBASE page is new and growing so please be patient.
 
Brian Caslis said:
I have both cameras (at the moment). The only advantage I really see
in the 1D3 focusing is that if you use the edge (non-central) AF
points it can be better since these are cross types while the D3 has
the cross types clustered in the center.

Oh, and the D3 can take a burst of photos and get 100% in focus. My
1D3 doesn't seem to do this.
Click to expand...
I'm surprised about your observation.
Our small Photo Club in Edmonton made some speed and AF accuracy test.

We have 3 D3s, 5 D300s, 4 40Ds and 5 1Dmark IIIs (none of them has sub mirror fixed).
All of them were tested during the week before Christmas.

All cameras were set to center AF, RAW, AI and max burst.
The best Nikon lens we had was 200-400mm f4 VR.
For Canon bodies we used 400mm f4 DO and 500mm f4.
All lenses were set to f4 during the test.
We tested cars coming to our direction with AF set to the cars plates.
Cameras were set on tripods located close to the intersection.

We made over 2000 images. The average result is:

40D and D300 were in the pair of AF accuracy - 60%
3D - about 70% sharp images
1Dmark III over 90% sharp images.

When 1Dmark III was set to 5 frames/sec. then AF accuracy went to 99%.
We did not test 3D with the lower burst speed.

--
Marek
http://members.shaw.ca/mgorecki/
 
Yes that is the sensible way to go - the 40D. But it has a smaller viewfinder which I don't accept anymore.

For me its about pleasure using the equipment when taking the photograph more than printing large (which I don't do often - 10MP is sufficient really). Its a hobby that I spend some hours on on certain days and for example I'm so used to L lenses that I don't like the feel of using something without USM and of lesser build quality. The same goes for the body.

Its like going out on a track day with a Mazda MX-3 or a Porsche 911 GT3 RS - both will make the track day fun, but one much more so. :) Call it whatever you want, but I just want a good tool which will satisfy my needs and wants.

--
Mori

http://mori-gallery.servepics.com

 
1Dmk II is a great camera.

it would seem you could also happily use a 5D - and you would have thousands to spare.

spare a thought for the fact that once you jump ship Canon will probably catch up and then you will have wasted that money. Bodies come and go all the time - glass does not.
 
If your used to a 10d--then the 40d is a HUGE step. I mean HUGE.

Also like one responded said, the 1dMKII si nice. You don't say you shoot, but...

When Canon announced the 1dMIII--they said it had the best IQ of all their camera. The 40d is close to the MKIII.

My advice--consider the 40d.
 
I'm certain many others would like to read more about this test. It should not be buried in a thread such as this. It seems to me it would be worthwhile to start a new thread with as much detail about the test as possible for others to digest and ask questions (that is if you are so inclined). It sounds as though it may provide information that many others are interested in.

I need to ask if all the participants in this test felt the results accurately depicted the capabilities of each cameras AF system?

BTW great images on your website and nice website too. You obviously know what you're doing.

Bob
marek_g said:
Brian Caslis said:
I have both cameras (at the moment). The only advantage I really see
in the 1D3 focusing is that if you use the edge (non-central) AF
points it can be better since these are cross types while the D3 has
the cross types clustered in the center.

Oh, and the D3 can take a burst of photos and get 100% in focus. My
1D3 doesn't seem to do this.
Click to expand...
I'm surprised about your observation.
Our small Photo Club in Edmonton made some speed and AF accuracy test.
We have 3 D3s, 5 D300s, 4 40Ds and 5 1Dmark IIIs (none of them has
sub mirror fixed).
All of them were tested during the week before Christmas.

All cameras were set to center AF, RAW, AI and max burst.
The best Nikon lens we had was 200-400mm f4 VR.
For Canon bodies we used 400mm f4 DO and 500mm f4.
All lenses were set to f4 during the test.
We tested cars coming to our direction with AF set to the cars plates.
Cameras were set on tripods located close to the intersection.

We made over 2000 images. The average result is:

40D and D300 were in the pair of AF accuracy - 60%
3D - about 70% sharp images
1Dmark III over 90% sharp images.

When 1Dmark III was set to 5 frames/sec. then AF accuracy went to 99%.
We did not test 3D with the lower burst speed.

--
Marek
http://members.shaw.ca/mgorecki/
Click to expand...
--
http://www.pbase.com/rwbaron
My PBASE page is new and growing so please be patient.
 
Mori said:
Yes that is the sensible way to go - the 40D. But it has a smaller
viewfinder which I don't accept anymore.
Click to expand...
I find the viewfinder on the 40D just fine as I no longer can manual focus these cameras anyway. Give me a big bright viewfinder with microprism or split image screen and that would be different.
Mori said:
For me its about pleasure using the equipment when taking the
photograph more than printing large (which I don't do often - 10MP is
sufficient really). Its a hobby that I spend some hours on on certain
days and for example I'm so used to L lenses that I don't like the
feel of using something without USM and of lesser build quality. The
same goes for the body.
Click to expand...
Do what makes you feel good. For me it's more about the images I can create than the equipment itself. I appreciate efficiency and for me the D3 and 1D bodies are so far into the law of dimishing returns for my needs I would never consider them.
Mori said:
Its like going out on a track day with a Mazda MX-3 or a Porsche 911
GT3 RS - both will make the track day fun, but one much more so. :)
Call it whatever you want, but I just want a good tool which will
satisfy my needs and wants.
Click to expand...
I hear you but what's embarrasing is when the person with the MX-3 turns in faster lap times than the guy with the 911. Similar to many posts of people saying they just have to have all the features of the D3 or 1D3 for their cat pics. More power to them as it's their money not mine and obviously people get strokes in different ways from their hobbies.

Good luck and enjoy your new D3. It sounds as though your mind was really made up before you started the thread.

Bob

--
http://www.pbase.com/rwbaron
My PBASE page is new and growing so please be patient.
 
marek_g said:
Brian Caslis said:
I have both cameras (at the moment). The only advantage I really see
in the 1D3 focusing is that if you use the edge (non-central) AF
points it can be better since these are cross types while the D3 has
the cross types clustered in the center.

Oh, and the D3 can take a burst of photos and get 100% in focus. My
1D3 doesn't seem to do this.
Click to expand...
I'm surprised about your observation.
Our small Photo Club in Edmonton made some speed and AF accuracy test.
We have 3 D3s, 5 D300s, 4 40Ds and 5 1Dmark IIIs (none of them has
sub mirror fixed).
All of them were tested during the week before Christmas.

All cameras were set to center AF, RAW, AI and max burst.
The best Nikon lens we had was 200-400mm f4 VR.
For Canon bodies we used 400mm f4 DO and 500mm f4.
All lenses were set to f4 during the test.
We tested cars coming to our direction with AF set to the cars plates.
Cameras were set on tripods located close to the intersection.

We made over 2000 images. The average result is:

40D and D300 were in the pair of AF accuracy - 60%
3D - about 70% sharp images
1Dmark III over 90% sharp images.

When 1Dmark III was set to 5 frames/sec. then AF accuracy went to 99%.
We did not test 3D with the lower burst speed.

--
Marek
http://members.shaw.ca/mgorecki/
Click to expand...
I can only say what I have experienced. I've had two 1D3's. On their best day they couldn't get 90% in focus unless you didn't look on the computer (only used the LCD screen). There are lots of images that are almost focused but you look at 100% you can see that nothing is really in focus. The D3 images don't have this issue.

One of the 1D3 came back from the Canon fix. In limited testing just of our dog in the back yard, it's now getting worse results. I'd say about 40% in focus.

Not to be combative, but I refuse to believe a 90% success rate on the 1D3. I have seen in many forums people ask for a sequence to be posted with a high success rate. Nobody has ever done this. I'd easily believe your 70% on the D3 (no camera is perfect), but 90% on the 1D3? Happy for you if you got it, but I've never seen results like that from that camera.
 
rwbaron said:
Mori said:
Yes that is the sensible way to go - the 40D. But it has a smaller
viewfinder which I don't accept anymore.
Click to expand...
I find the viewfinder on the 40D just fine as I no longer can manual
focus these cameras anyway. Give me a big bright viewfinder with
microprism or split image screen and that would be different.
Click to expand...
Have you tried a D3 viewfinder? I was shocked at how nicely it works for manual focus. I can easily see details pop in and out of focus that I can't see on the 1D3.

May not be the best compared to some older film cameras, but it's got the best viewfinder of any digital I've tried for manual focusing.
 
Brian Caslis said:
michaeladawson said:
Mori said:
  • was playing around with my friends D300 and I noticed that when in
manual mode and the scene was being underexposed by about 1/2 stop (I
believe the shutter should have been around 1/2 sec) the top LCD
didn't show the shutter speed but displayed the word "Lo" instead -
can this be changed and why does this show up? I would like to be the
judge myself if I can handhold the camera at that speed myself -
perhaps this is because of the AutoISO thing?
Click to expand...
I have checked both my D200 and my D3. The top display does not read
LO until you get a shutter longer than 30 seconds. I can't imagine
that the D300 is any different. What mode were you in? I tested
this in aperture priority. Then I reread your post and tested in
manual mode. Same thing. Reads shutter speed just fine up to 30
seconds.
--
Mike Dawson
Click to expand...
I'm confused by this. It seems like I get a Lo in Aperture mode
whenever it's longer than a fraction of a second. Are you saying you
can see a 1 second shutter speed shown when in Aperture mode?
Click to expand...
LO shows up on the LCD when your are below the metering range.
HI will show up on the LCD if you are above the metering range.

You will see this in A and S modes. Switch to manual mode to make it stop. :)

In manual mode you can meter outside of this range but metering may become unpredictable.
 
rwbaron said:
Mori said:
Yes that is the sensible way to go - the 40D. But it has a smaller
viewfinder which I don't accept anymore.
Click to expand...
I find the viewfinder on the 40D just fine as I no longer can manual
focus these cameras anyway. Give me a big bright viewfinder with
microprism or split image screen and that would be different.
Click to expand...
So true, but I try anyway. :)
rwbaron said:
rwbaron said:
For me its about pleasure using the equipment when taking the
photograph more than printing large (which I don't do often - 10MP is
sufficient really). Its a hobby that I spend some hours on on certain
days and for example I'm so used to L lenses that I don't like the
feel of using something without USM and of lesser build quality. The
same goes for the body.
Click to expand...
Do what makes you feel good. For me it's more about the images I can
create than the equipment itself. I appreciate efficiency and for me
the D3 and 1D bodies are so far into the law of dimishing returns for
my needs I would never consider them.
Click to expand...
Oh its about the images itself as well - but when I spend hours in the fresh air I don't want to get frustrated over AF or the VF while having a good time.
rwbaron said:
rwbaron said:
Its like going out on a track day with a Mazda MX-3 or a Porsche 911
GT3 RS - both will make the track day fun, but one much more so. :)
Call it whatever you want, but I just want a good tool which will
satisfy my needs and wants.
Click to expand...
I hear you but what's embarrasing is when the person with the MX-3
turns in faster lap times than the guy with the 911. Similar to many
posts of people saying they just have to have all the features of the
D3 or 1D3 for their cat pics. More power to them as it's their money
not mine and obviously people get strokes in different ways from
their hobbies.
Click to expand...
Ah yes. :)
rwbaron said:
Good luck and enjoy your new D3. It sounds as though your mind was
really made up before you started the thread.

Bob
Click to expand...
Actually just discussed the issue with my dad and we'll probably end up getting a 5D Mk2 and 1D Mk3 and just switch around whichever one of us needs whichever camera. Hopefully I'll pay for the cheaper one. ;)

Still no final decision yet though - if he indeed takes the lenses off my hands and gets himself a 5D or 1D then I'll probably go for Nikon myself.

--
Mori

http://mori-gallery.servepics.com

 
Gary Sprowls said:
Brian Caslis wrote:
LO shows up on the LCD when your are below the metering range.
HI will show up on the LCD if you are above the metering range.

You will see this in A and S modes. Switch to manual mode to make it
stop. :)

In manual mode you can meter outside of this range but metering may
become unpredictable.
Click to expand...
Please define unpredictable in this case.

--
Mori

http://mori-gallery.servepics.com

 
Mori said:
Gary Sprowls said:
Brian Caslis wrote:
LO shows up on the LCD when your are below the metering range.
HI will show up on the LCD if you are above the metering range.

You will see this in A and S modes. Switch to manual mode to make it
stop. :)

In manual mode you can meter outside of this range but metering may
become unpredictable.
Click to expand...
Please define unpredictable in this case.

--
Mori

http://mori-gallery.servepics.com

Click to expand...
It just means that if you stray too far out of the range (since it will try to meter outside the range in Manual Mode) don't rely on what the meter is showing you in the viewfinder as a basis for your exposure. As far as Nikon is concerned, all bets are off.

D300 and D3 metering range...
3D Color Matrix Metering: 0 to 20 EV
• Center-Weighted Metering: 0 to 20 EV
• Spot Metering: 2 to 20 EV
• At normal temperature (20°C/68°F), ISO 100 equivalent, f/1.4 lens
 
Gary Sprowls said:
D300 and D3 metering range...
3D Color Matrix Metering: 0 to 20 EV
• Center-Weighted Metering: 0 to 20 EV
• Spot Metering: 2 to 20 EV
• At normal temperature (20°C/68°F), ISO 100 equivalent, f/1.4 lens
Click to expand...
Those specs are way conservative. Nikon always under promises and over delivers. I have shot way below that range on an F3. The meter on the D3 is way better than that.

--
Chris, Broussard, LA
 
From 6MP to 10 or 12MP is a huge difference. A 10MP machine produces a 40" wide print at 100%, if you need it and the level of resolved detail is infinitely superior to 6 megapixels If it was not we would all still use 6 and buy Fujis and Sigmas, but we dont.

The Canon 5D is SLOW in terms of its shutter actuation time AFTER you press the shutter. As is the 10D and the Pentax 10D too. If responding AFAP ( as fast as possible rather than as soon as possible)to what you see and actually getting it exactly the way you want it matters go first to Imaging resource and check carefully their figures for that interval for prefocussed and for manual.

Some Canons are fast enough to use manual adaptors and other people's lenses. Some, like the 5D are not. The 40D and D300?, well, the D300 is a little faster. Nikons claim that the D3 is as fast as the D300 still makes it slower than a 1Ds, let alone a 1D II or III in that response, for SINGLE frame actuations, and this is key since AF is a lesser problem. If your eyesight's up to it, with these very slow lenses in fashion today, you can always focus manually, and with depth of field set correctly on a depth of field scale on your lens (WOW!!) not EVER bother focussing at all. Except with normal to long lenses.

Unless you need high IQ at high ISOs above 1600 why buy a D3? Why buy a 1Ds III or II or I?

The Canon range have lower noise in general, and an infinitely greater range of optics. All Nikkors including non-Ai models. ALL pentax and Olympus and Leica and Contax/Yashica work with aperture priority and manual metering with adaptors on Canons. You can now even buy adaptors that give focus confirmation as well.

Auto-focus, except for those whose eyesight is fading, like mine, is NOT at all necessary, and in very many cases, and here I include sports and birds etc, it is a pain in the proverbial. 30 years ago it barely existed, and photography has not been improved by it since .

So you just need to prioritize your needs and figure how much unnecessary suffering you can avoid. Your problem is your DESIRE to make a martyr of yourself.
Kwannon is the Japanese goddess of compassion for whom Cannon are named.
So......?
 
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