Apples to apples comparisons?

HMB · Apr 27, 2002

Trying to figure out flash duration by looking at web sites is pretty useless. Where can I find flash duration at T 0.1 for Profoto and Elinchrom and Broncolor?
--

'I've got just about everything they offer, so if the photos stink it must be me.'

Bern Caughey · Apr 27, 2002

wiley said:
Trying to figure out flash duration by looking at web sites is
pretty useless. Where can I find flash duration at T 0.1 for
Profoto and Elinchrom and Broncolor?
--
'I've got just about everything they offer, so if the photos stink
it must be me.'

I don't know an answer to your question but the keys to flash duration between different strobes is the length of their flashtube. Generally said the longer the flashtube the longer the flash duration. The next factor to consider is discharge voltage.

For the shortest flash duration for a given output use bi-tube heads with two strobe packs each. Another good thing about using bi-tubes is that if one of the tubes or packs starts having problems you can turn one pack off while increasing power on the second pack & continue shooting in moments.

All of the systems you are mentioned are excellent. Profoto has become the dominent player in the studios & rental houses in America.

Al Goldis · Apr 27, 2002

Almost all the measurements I've seen are done at t0.5. Those are probably the apples you want to use.

wiley said:
Trying to figure out flash duration by looking at web sites is
pretty useless. Where can I find flash duration at T 0.1 for
Profoto and Elinchrom and Broncolor?
--
'I've got just about everything they offer, so if the photos stink
it must be me.'

Kraig · Apr 27, 2002

here are some apples

http://www.keradwc.com/articles/studio_flash_duration.html

Phred · Apr 27, 2002

While we are on the topic of comparing flash specifications, hope you don’t mind another apples to bananas comparison addition to your thread.

While it’s difficult to find apples to apples data for flash duration and recycle times, it’s darn hard to get any pre-purchase information on duty cycle. Anyone know of a duty cycle comparisons for popular packs/heads. For monolights?

Cheers,
Phred

HMB · Apr 28, 2002

Thanks, Kraig. Took a look at the site, but it kinda' proves my point. I hear Broncolor is the fastest out there (and settable), but they are FRIGHTFULLY expensive. Doesn't mean I won't go that route, but I just want to be sure I know what my trade-offs are.

HMB · Apr 28, 2002

I'm hearing that T 0.1 is a better metric, though I confess I'm not yet quite clear why...

Al Goldis said:
wiley said:

Trying to figure out flash duration by looking at web sites is
pretty useless. Where can I find flash duration at T 0.1 for
Profoto and Elinchrom and Broncolor?
--
'I've got just about everything they offer, so if the photos stink
it must be me.'

Click to expand...

--

'I've got just about everything they offer, so if the photos stink it must be me.'

HMB · Apr 28, 2002

Anybody know of a definitive article out there that covers all of this?

CLTHRS said:
wiley said:

Trying to figure out flash duration by looking at web sites is
pretty useless. Where can I find flash duration at T 0.1 for
Profoto and Elinchrom and Broncolor?
--
'I've got just about everything they offer, so if the photos stink
it must be me.'

Click to expand...

I don't know an answer to your question but the keys to flash
duration between different strobes is the length of their
flashtube. Generally said the longer the flashtube the longer the
flash duration. The next factor to consider is discharge voltage.

For the shortest flash duration for a given output use bi-tube
heads with two strobe packs each. Another good thing about using
bi-tubes is that if one of the tubes or packs starts having
problems you can turn one pack off while increasing power on the
second pack & continue shooting in moments.

All of the systems you are mentioned are excellent. Profoto has
become the dominent player in the studios & rental houses in
America.

--

'I've got just about everything they offer, so if the photos stink it must be me.'

Kraig · Apr 28, 2002

How fast do you need to go? Will digital have a reciprocity failure for short exposure times like film? I would not think so any one look into this?

A few years back I rented a "Broncolor Flashman" system with fast heads to freeze action my strobes could not handle(even with 4 heads symmetrically off one pack). I just went to the Broncolor site and Flashman was no longer listed maybe a used system would get you there.

Your local Sinar Bron rep would be the best person to ask. They tend to know everybody in the area using their stuff and who is ready to trade up or sellout. Along with who has beat up there stuff so much it would not be a good buy.

Just a thought

K

Greg Shapps · Apr 28, 2002

First of all - you must mention how fast of a duration you are looking for based on what it is you want to do with it. I specialize in shooting drips/splashes/pours and have much knowledge on high speed strobes.

CLTHRS is partially correct when he says that a shorter tube produces a faster duration, it helps but what really makes a faster duration are a number of things. This distance of the capacitors to the tube, the speed at which the capacitors can dump the power to the tube, the ability to get the power down extremly low. There are alot of electrical enginerring technicals involved here which I am not getting into. I personally use Elinchrom 250r and 500r mono light s for high speed work. The 250r is a true 1/6400 of a sec and the 500r is 1/4000 of a sec. These might be over kill if you are just looking for a fatser duration to make sure that your model doesnt have any movement on film which is why fashion photogs like profoto. Trust me though Profoto is by no means fast enough to freeze liquid properly. The Broncolor Grafit A2 and A4 packs are pretty fast up to 1/6000 at t.01 but you will pay a pretty penny for the packs and each head and accessory. But then you would also have equipment that you can use for everything and not just for high speed. I currently use speedotron for everything else but high speed. When I first started doing high speed work I would use a few dozen 283 flashes which have to be rigged to produce the high speed flash. You have to pull out the thyristor and take a paper clip and stick it into two of the wholes of which I can't remember, this will short the flash to produce the smallest amount of power and therefore the fastest duration about 1/10,000. Sure this sound very fast but its only putting out like 5w/s which is why you need dozens of these things. The Metz and Sunpack flashes are the same way, they have the ability to produce a 1/10,000 duration but can't be done with out tricking the light into doing so.

Give me some information on what it is you want to shoot and I can give you more information.

HMB · Apr 28, 2002

The stuff that Lois Greenfield does is in the ballpark of where I'd like to go: having taken photos of my children on stage, I'd now like to evolve to setting up studio shots of dancers frozen in motion (my wife is a ballet teacher).

I think you've helped in a big way, because you've just ruled out Profoto for me. My question about the Elinchrom (the duration of the two you mention is certainly short enough) is how much light do I need to really light up three or four dancers, and whether or not this results in a much longer flash duration. I'd like the flash to run through something like the Octabank, so that would probably soak up a lot of light, meaning full power -- when flash duration is its longest, yes?

Thanks!!

Gregman said:
First of all - you must mention how fast of a duration you are
looking for based on what it is you want to do with it. I
specialize in shooting drips/splashes/pours and have much knowledge
on high speed strobes.
CLTHRS is partially correct when he says that a shorter tube
produces a faster duration, it helps but what really makes a
faster duration are a number of things. This distance of the
capacitors to the tube, the speed at which the capacitors can dump
the power to the tube, the ability to get the power down extremly
low. There are alot of electrical enginerring technicals involved
here which I am not getting into. I personally use Elinchrom 250r
and 500r mono light s for high speed work. The 250r is a true
1/6400 of a sec and the 500r is 1/4000 of a sec. These might be
over kill if you are just looking for a fatser duration to make
sure that your model doesnt have any movement on film which is why
fashion photogs like profoto. Trust me though Profoto is by no
means fast enough to freeze liquid properly. The Broncolor Grafit
A2 and A4 packs are pretty fast up to 1/6000 at t.01 but you will
pay a pretty penny for the packs and each head and accessory. But
then you would also have equipment that you can use for everything
and not just for high speed. I currently use speedotron for
everything else but high speed. When I first started doing high
speed work I would use a few dozen 283 flashes which have to be
rigged to produce the high speed flash. You have to pull out the
thyristor and take a paper clip and stick it into two of the wholes
of which I can't remember, this will short the flash to produce the
smallest amount of power and therefore the fastest duration about
1/10,000. Sure this sound very fast but its only putting out like
5w/s which is why you need dozens of these things. The Metz and
Sunpack flashes are the same way, they have the ability to produce
a 1/10,000 duration but can't be done with out tricking the light
into doing so.

Give me some information on what it is you want to shoot and I can
give you more information.

--

'I've got just about everything they offer, so if the photos stink it must be me.'

HMB · Apr 28, 2002

Kraig said:
How fast do you need to go? Will digital have a reciprocity
failure for short exposure times like film? I would not think so
any one look into this?

A few years back I rented a "Broncolor Flashman" system with fast
heads to freeze action my strobes could not handle(even with 4
heads symmetrically off one pack). I just went to the Broncolor
site and Flashman was no longer listed maybe a used system would
get you there.

Your local Sinar Bron rep would be the best person to ask. They
tend to know everybody in the area using their stuff and who is
ready to trade up or sellout. Along with who has beat up there
stuff so much it would not be a good buy.

Just a thought

K

--

'I've got just about everything they offer, so if the photos stink it must be me.'

Bern Caughey · Apr 28, 2002

HMB said:
I think you've helped in a big way, because you've just ruled out
Profoto for me. My question about the Elinchrom (the duration of
the two you mention is certainly short enough) is how much light
do I need to really light up three or four dancers, and whether or
not this results in a much longer flash duration. I'd like the
flash to run through something like the Octabank, so that would
probably soak up a lot of light, meaning full power -- when flash
duration is its longest, yes?

You should not rule out Profotos since they are often used in this application. Slashing liquids require vastly shorter durations than dancers.

http://web.mit.edu/edgerton/main.html
&
http://www.rit.edu/~andpph/text-high-speed.html

If you need more than 4800ws the bitube allows you could bounce multiple units off a umbrella or such.

While some monoblocks have a short flash duration their heads are bulky & do not offer as high an ouput when compared to those powered by packs.

Bern Caughey · Apr 28, 2002

Bern Caughey said:
Bern Caughey said:

I'd like the
flash to run through something like the Octabank, so that would
probably soak up a lot of light, meaning full power -- when flash
duration is its longest, yes?

Click to expand...

Bern Caughey said:
If you need more than 4800ws the bitube allows you could bounce
multiple units off a umbrella or such.

One option for the light modifier is the Profoto Pro Big 7' or 5' Reflector. They are giant umbrellas with a pebbled silver interior. One-stop & quarter-stop diffusser are available for each. You may want to bounce a tungsten into the reflector or off the face of the diffuser to suplant your modeling light.

I prefer them over the Octabank.

Bern Caughey · Apr 28, 2002

You should post a detailed question in the Tech Talk section of the Photo District News' "Professional Photo Forums". You should get a broader response concerning the use of these various strobe systems.

http://www.pdn-pix.com/index.html

Greg Shapps · Apr 28, 2002

Ok - so you are looking to freeze people in motion. Dancers aren't moving or jumping all the quickly and you will not need extremly fast duration. The Elinchrom 1000r is a great head for you or the Profoto packs. I am not all that familar with Profoto since almost no one uses them here in Chicago (Speedo town) I would recommend renting both systems and and trying them out first. One thing I do know is that Profoto is also pretty expensive but you pay for what you get.

Greg Shapps · Apr 28, 2002

I got new for you - I am the guy who is gonna wind up responding in the PDN forum also.

Bern Caughey said:
You should post a detailed question in the Tech Talk section of the
Photo District News' "Professional Photo Forums". You should get a
broader response concerning the use of these various strobe systems.

http://www.pdn-pix.com/index.html

HMB · Apr 29, 2002

...and saw both of your threads. Thank you both. Looks like I've got to do an Excel spreadsheet and calculate $ ws, perhaps with a modifier for flexibility, system comprehensiveness, and flash duration...

Which sounds like a really good set of articles or reviews for someone who does this for a living (not me)!!

...or how about....

Bern Caughey · Apr 29, 2002

wiley said:
...and saw both of your threads. Thank you both. Looks like I've
got to do an Excel spreadsheet and calculate $ ws, perhaps with a
modifier for flexibility, system comprehensiveness, and flash
duration...

Which sounds like a really good set of articles or reviews for
someone who does this for a living (not me)!!

...or how about....

But you didn't post the same question in the tech forum. You'll likely receive more diverse responses from other working pros if you do.

HMB · Apr 29, 2002

Finding it virtually impossible to compare studio flash from Broncolor, Elinchrom and Profoto on an apples to apples basis. Most interested in studio strobe for capturing ballet dancers UTTERLY FROZEN in mid-air, so looking for very short flash duration combined with power to flash through something like an Octabank. I had just about reached conclusion that Broncolor Grafit was fastest, only to hear this morning from Profoto directly that at full power, the Grafit A4 is 1/370th, vs. 1/1600th in the Profoto 7A. Anyone out there to help me straighten all of this out? Two months ago, I would have gone with the Elinchroms -- now I'm just confused.

Thanks!!

Apples to apples comparisons?

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