Will Digital distroy photography

Stephen Livick · Apr 18, 2002

Hello Everybody,

Digital imaging will not destroy photography, in fact it will help it grow and flourish with a new medium in which to grow.

It will however destroy or maim many businesses which were built around and were in support of the old chemical based photographic methods. That is a truism unfortunately.

However change is inevitable, and either you change with the times or you simply fade away and cease to exist.

All of the local commercial working pros I know have now switched over to digital image capture and digital print making. Or are fully in the transition period over to digital imaging.

Personaly I have embraced the new ways dumping close to 200K worth of film based equipment and huge darkroom set up a year and a half ago. received only about 20 cents on the dollar and then ploughed that all back into the digital set up.

Now believe it or not, with only a fraction of the equipment I once had, I can actually do so much more creatively than I was able to do using film based methods.

Digital imaging for me has literally opened a door to fresh new image creation, through freedom from film/chemical expense for greater image experimentation and quick computer image message work flow. Something I could only dare dream about doing using film based methods. And believe this, its just as challenging and skill intensive to do top of the line work in digital. Please don't make the mistake of believing that it isn't.

Will digital methods kill photography... "OF COURSE NOT".. for me personally the exact opposite has happened. It's literally breathed fresh new life into me after 40 years of continuously going down the film based photographic road.

Stephen

Stinky said:
At one time it required much to be a photographer. For most people
shooting was a process of learn as you grow. Often you would get
your film back will all kinds of interesting surprises. There was
no auto focus, auto exposure, no ttl, and most of all no instant
feedback other than polaroids. Much has changed. In the world of
digital feedback gives you the ability to correct or change final
to any way you really want it to be. The test preview is not some
imitation but an actual image that can be used as the final. I can
tell you how many times the Polaroid was one of the best shots.

The ability to edit right on the spot saves time in shoot extra to
make sure you got it or to cover your butt is not needed any more.
The camera manufactures have created slogans like, "so easy just
point and shoot".

No more guessing at exposures. No more trips to the lab. No more
polaroids. No more wondering if it is sharp. No more in a lab
smelling chemicals. No more darkrooms. A new paradigm.

As I see it digital in one way is wonderful and exciting and on the
other a dawn of the extinction of the way it was and all businesses
that were of the past. No more film. No more labs. No more
trays, timers and chemicals. All of them million dollar businesses.

Photographer now becomes retoucher, designer, printer and computer
genius. Creativity is now opened up to the imagination.

Clients already do not want to pay us really what we are worth now
can use their own cameras to shoot and if it not right they can
change it on the spot. Or the kid right out of school gives it
away to get the sample in their book. Photos for free! You see it
really didn't cost anything. You don't have this great overhead in
film, processing and Polaroid. Makes it easy to have any Joe with
a camera say he is a photographer. (This is not to say with the
invention of auto everything that this does not already exist.)
I know you are saying that it take a lot more to be a photographer
and I agree full heartedly. What my point is that with more and
more automation available the volume of photographer increase and
the injury to the profession increases in direct proportions.

As a group we already give away far too many of our rights. Fear
has kept us at the same prices for editorials as 20 years ago!
Though the price of everything around us has increased you can
always find a good photographer who will give it away for next to
nothing. Will digital kill the wounded market all together? Will
retouching be an expected part of the process? How about prepress?
Will designers become photographers? Or will photographers become
designers? Why will the art director not just shoot it himself?

Much of what I am talking about is already happening. The bread
and butter is disappearing, freeing up shooters to do other things.
Some will die and others will fine new way to capitalize on all the
new services they can provide their clients. Labs will fold and
the young children will ask what is film?

I know that I have only touched on the issue and find that a PRO
Digital forum is the perfect place to create our future. Please
take time to really think about what you want to say before you
reply because we all need the very best of your thinking as a
community.

RLJSlick · Apr 18, 2002

This is the exact point I wanted to make! There will aways be a debate about what make a pro, and amateur. Everyone have their ideas about that. I consider myself a semi-pro, though I make money shooting pictures it's not what I make most of my money doing. Any way, I'm more worried about what will happen to the film industry. With digital becoming more popular then film, it may get to a point that it will be hard to find film cheap. Film now is the cheapest I've ever seen, but if retail stores and photo shops like Ritz stop having film cameras as their main product, and with the limited store space, will they start limiting the amount of film on the shelves?

Ricky

chi said:
with digital hurting film sales in combination with the recession,
it seems as if 35mm film camera accessories are in an innovative
slump. is it just me or is this slump making camera makers cut
back on SLR research and development which in turn is making good
(pro quality) 35mm equipment somewhat of a collectors item. what
we're getting now is a lotta crappy plastic lenses coming on to the
market with less focus on high quality pro items. pro-like quality
items on eBay end up at prices that nearly rival new items at the
B&H so it's like it's becoming somewhat of a collectors item. it's
the market that decides where companies pour their money into. SLR
sales are less than 5% of overall digital sales and out of that
amount there is a small percentage buy pro-quality optics. this is
just my observance of the after market for accessories.

Lou Verruto · Apr 18, 2002

Only bad photographers and the people who buy/accept bad photography will "destroy" photography.

Stinky said:
At one time it required much to be a photographer. For most people
shooting was a process of learn as you grow. Often you would get
your film back will all kinds of interesting surprises. There was
no auto focus, auto exposure, no ttl, and most of all no instant
feedback other than polaroids. Much has changed. In the world of
digital feedback gives you the ability to correct or change final
to any way you really want it to be. The test preview is not some
imitation but an actual image that can be used as the final. I can
tell you how many times the Polaroid was one of the best shots.

The ability to edit right on the spot saves time in shoot extra to
make sure you got it or to cover your butt is not needed any more.
The camera manufactures have created slogans like, "so easy just
point and shoot".

No more guessing at exposures. No more trips to the lab. No more
polaroids. No more wondering if it is sharp. No more in a lab
smelling chemicals. No more darkrooms. A new paradigm.

As I see it digital in one way is wonderful and exciting and on the
other a dawn of the extinction of the way it was and all businesses
that were of the past. No more film. No more labs. No more
trays, timers and chemicals. All of them million dollar businesses.

Photographer now becomes retoucher, designer, printer and computer
genius. Creativity is now opened up to the imagination.

Clients already do not want to pay us really what we are worth now
can use their own cameras to shoot and if it not right they can
change it on the spot. Or the kid right out of school gives it
away to get the sample in their book. Photos for free! You see it
really didn't cost anything. You don't have this great overhead in
film, processing and Polaroid. Makes it easy to have any Joe with
a camera say he is a photographer. (This is not to say with the
invention of auto everything that this does not already exist.)
I know you are saying that it take a lot more to be a photographer
and I agree full heartedly. What my point is that with more and
more automation available the volume of photographer increase and
the injury to the profession increases in direct proportions.

As a group we already give away far too many of our rights. Fear
has kept us at the same prices for editorials as 20 years ago!
Though the price of everything around us has increased you can
always find a good photographer who will give it away for next to
nothing. Will digital kill the wounded market all together? Will
retouching be an expected part of the process? How about prepress?
Will designers become photographers? Or will photographers become
designers? Why will the art director not just shoot it himself?

Much of what I am talking about is already happening. The bread
and butter is disappearing, freeing up shooters to do other things.
Some will die and others will fine new way to capitalize on all the
new services they can provide their clients. Labs will fold and
the young children will ask what is film?

I know that I have only touched on the issue and find that a PRO
Digital forum is the perfect place to create our future. Please
take time to really think about what you want to say before you
reply because we all need the very best of your thinking as a
community.

Peter Sauer · Apr 18, 2002

LouV said:
Only bad photographers and the people who buy/accept bad
photography will "destroy" photography.

35 years in the business has taught me that photographers are hired because of their vision and personality. The new markets such as stock photography eliminates the personality but the vision and image remains. A photographer's ability to survive is based on passion, adaptability and most importantly, business and marketing skills. The tools of the photographic medium will change. Thankfully, passion and vision will separate the wheat from the chaff. "Luck and success happens when preparation meets opportunity".

Robert Briggs · Apr 18, 2002

I agree with you, Melanie. Its so interesting to read other's thoughts on where the new digital technology is taking them. For me, its in a very positive direction being an amateur leaning toward professional. I see digital giving the photographer additional tools to 'capture the moment.' I welcome digital ... and am getting very impatient waiting for the Nikon D100 ..ha!

Bob

Melanie Kipp said:
Well, I must say this has been an great read to read.

Charles Huguley · Apr 18, 2002

The advance of technology may raise the standard for the best work, but talented craftsmen will probably continue to produce consistently better work than neophites. It's not just about correct exposure and focus: that's only the starting point.

Consumer point and shoot cameras have been capable of fine exposures for many years. I'm sure we're all familiar with the less than dazzling results represented by typical family snapshots.

The immediate feedback offered by digital cameras is probably less likely to improve casual photography than might be expected. Most people don't seem very interested in evaluating their shots. The difference between a good image and a bad one is often perceived as entirely a matter of luck, as evidenced in the refrain "Well, that turned out good!".

Charles

Stinky said:
At one time it required much to be a photographer. For most people
shooting was a process of learn as you grow. Often you would get
your film back will all kinds of interesting surprises. There was
no auto focus, auto exposure, no ttl, and most of all no instant
feedback other than polaroids. Much has changed. In the world of
digital feedback gives you the ability to correct or change final
to any way you really want it to be. The test preview is not some
imitation but an actual image that can be used as the final. I can
tell you how many times the Polaroid was one of the best shots.

The ability to edit right on the spot saves time in shoot extra to
make sure you got it or to cover your butt is not needed any more.
The camera manufactures have created slogans like, "so easy just
point and shoot".

No more guessing at exposures. No more trips to the lab. No more
polaroids. No more wondering if it is sharp. No more in a lab
smelling chemicals. No more darkrooms. A new paradigm.

As I see it digital in one way is wonderful and exciting and on the
other a dawn of the extinction of the way it was and all businesses
that were of the past. No more film. No more labs. No more
trays, timers and chemicals. All of them million dollar businesses.

Photographer now becomes retoucher, designer, printer and computer
genius. Creativity is now opened up to the imagination.

Clients already do not want to pay us really what we are worth now
can use their own cameras to shoot and if it not right they can
change it on the spot. Or the kid right out of school gives it
away to get the sample in their book. Photos for free! You see it
really didn't cost anything. You don't have this great overhead in
film, processing and Polaroid. Makes it easy to have any Joe with
a camera say he is a photographer. (This is not to say with the
invention of auto everything that this does not already exist.)
I know you are saying that it take a lot more to be a photographer
and I agree full heartedly. What my point is that with more and
more automation available the volume of photographer increase and
the injury to the profession increases in direct proportions.

As a group we already give away far too many of our rights. Fear
has kept us at the same prices for editorials as 20 years ago!
Though the price of everything around us has increased you can
always find a good photographer who will give it away for next to
nothing. Will digital kill the wounded market all together? Will
retouching be an expected part of the process? How about prepress?
Will designers become photographers? Or will photographers become
designers? Why will the art director not just shoot it himself?

Much of what I am talking about is already happening. The bread
and butter is disappearing, freeing up shooters to do other things.
Some will die and others will fine new way to capitalize on all the
new services they can provide their clients. Labs will fold and
the young children will ask what is film?

I know that I have only touched on the issue and find that a PRO
Digital forum is the perfect place to create our future. Please
take time to really think about what you want to say before you
reply because we all need the very best of your thinking as a
community.

Stinky · Apr 18, 2002

Jim thanks for the reply. In the world of photography the client is always looking for the best price. We all want a BMW for a Pinto price.

In the past photographers held on to their negs and made profit sometime on the back end. My belief is that in the future of digital photography CD will be burned and handed over to the client and all their rights and profits will go with them. This stressing an already wounded market.

Photography is more than some fun hobby it is a business. In business we are to make a fair profit. Many client don't have the money to really do photography but do it anyway. They squeeze the most out of any one they can and that is usually the photographer.. The lab, photo supplier and prepress house get their rate. As a group Photographers are a wild bunch of individuals and for the most part the fear of losing a job makes them bid for less then they deserve because there is someone out there who WILL do it for much less. This is not to say they will get the same quality or experience but most time it is far too late and too far into the project to admit they made a mistake.

In addressing your event idea you make my point to the exact thinking that is going to get photographer in trouble in the future. I make $400 and walk away. What about future prints sales? What about copyrights? After the disk leaves your hands they decide to sell the images as stock and some advertiser picks them up? How about a friend of the promoters see one of the images and uses them on a brochure to advertise their service. Jim these are your images and you should get paid for them! You value as a photographer is much greater than $100 an hour. You own the right to those images for 70 years AFTER you are DEAD! You are taking food out of the mouth of your children. By that time they might be the greatest history or retro shot used by anyone wanting to reflect on the past.

My suggestion is you can give the client a CD with LOW rez files for proofs and also a contract which states limited usage rights. If they want high quality images they come back to you and you profit from it. If some third party wants to use the image they come to you and you profit from it. I would also send a copy of the disk to the US copyright and have them registered. This way you are covered if anyone want to use them with out your permission an illegally!

Jim this is business and we all win with this kind of thinking. If every photographer thought and acted this way we would make the kind of money we deserve and the photo comunity would be strong.

Jim DeLuco said:
Naw...it will just separate the portraitist from the candid
photographer. There's plenty of business for the candid
photographer in weddings but it has to be cheap, because of what
you describe (Uncle Bill can do just as good a job as joe
photographer). But Uncle Bill is gonna be a guest at the wedding
so we need someone to take snapshots....$500, 7 hours coverage, all
the proofs and the digital files or negatives included. Cheap and
fast...nothing fancy. Some of the photos may actually be worth
keeping.

I think the past is a good predictor of the future and the
advancements in the technology has only helped the business. It is
true, however, that there are more "professional" photographers out
there now competing for the short dollar....so maybe you're right.

I've been thinking of offering cheap event photography...no proofs,
just the photography and the files on a CD. If I bring a laptop
with a burner, I can actually hand the CD's to the client before I
leave the event and be done with it. $100 an hour, no film, no
direct expenses...4 hour minimum.

What do you think?

Stinky · Apr 18, 2002

John thanks for such great insite. What can be created in week of time can be captured in a click. Regestered Coptrights are the only way we are going to have a chance at this future. You also bring to the front that it is not only photography we are talking. Music, Movies, Books and any thing you can think of that can be put to a digital format.

John Lund said:
You have raised a hugely important question, one I think every
professional photographer should consider. I think we all have to
set a goal for ourselves in this changing digital industry and work
toward it.

If that means getting out of the commercial photofinishing business
and into high-end pre-press work that is one area.

My own fate is a bit better, I am a writer and a photographer, so
maybe I am not as affected by the digital future as long as I have
clients dependent on me to combine words and photos. But I am
certainly affected by how I take photos and present them to
clients. That is why I am hanging around here, to learn how others
are accomplishing this change in editorial and illustration
photography.

For others like wedding, event, portraitists, and stock
photographers...I really can't predict, but I agree that the
business is changing drastically and we all better be ready.

I would be very interested to hear how we are going to protect our
dwindling photo rights and ownership when our photos can be copied
and sent around the world to who knows where in the click of a
mouse.

If you have more info on this please advise.

Thanks Stinky for the thread, very timely,
JL

Stinky said:

At one time it required much to be a photographer. For most people
shooting was a process of learn as you grow. Often you would get
your film back will all kinds of interesting surprises. There was
no auto focus, auto exposure, no ttl, and most of all no instant
feedback other than polaroids. Much has changed. In the world of
digital feedback gives you the ability to correct or change final
to any way you really want it to be. The test preview is not some
imitation but an actual image that can be used as the final. I can
tell you how many times the Polaroid was one of the best shots.

The ability to edit right on the spot saves time in shoot extra to
make sure you got it or to cover your butt is not needed any more.
The camera manufactures have created slogans like, "so easy just
point and shoot".

No more guessing at exposures. No more trips to the lab. No more
polaroids. No more wondering if it is sharp. No more in a lab
smelling chemicals. No more darkrooms. A new paradigm.

As I see it digital in one way is wonderful and exciting and on the
other a dawn of the extinction of the way it was and all businesses
that were of the past. No more film. No more labs. No more
trays, timers and chemicals. All of them million dollar businesses.

Photographer now becomes retoucher, designer, printer and computer
genius. Creativity is now opened up to the imagination.

Clients already do not want to pay us really what we are worth now
can use their own cameras to shoot and if it not right they can
change it on the spot. Or the kid right out of school gives it
away to get the sample in their book. Photos for free! You see it
really didn't cost anything. You don't have this great overhead in
film, processing and Polaroid. Makes it easy to have any Joe with
a camera say he is a photographer. (This is not to say with the
invention of auto everything that this does not already exist.)
I know you are saying that it take a lot more to be a photographer
and I agree full heartedly. What my point is that with more and
more automation available the volume of photographer increase and
the injury to the profession increases in direct proportions.

As a group we already give away far too many of our rights. Fear
has kept us at the same prices for editorials as 20 years ago!
Though the price of everything around us has increased you can
always find a good photographer who will give it away for next to
nothing. Will digital kill the wounded market all together? Will
retouching be an expected part of the process? How about prepress?
Will designers become photographers? Or will photographers become
designers? Why will the art director not just shoot it himself?

Much of what I am talking about is already happening. The bread
and butter is disappearing, freeing up shooters to do other things.
Some will die and others will fine new way to capitalize on all the
new services they can provide their clients. Labs will fold and
the young children will ask what is film?

I know that I have only touched on the issue and find that a PRO
Digital forum is the perfect place to create our future. Please
take time to really think about what you want to say before you
reply because we all need the very best of your thinking as a
community.

Click to expand...

Stinky · Apr 18, 2002

A point well taken. Price still drives the market and the most experienced photographere are not the highest paid. After 30 yaers in the market you might cost too much even though you have much more to offer.

William Mayer said:
I think you are looking to much at the tools and not at the craft.
Just like any other type of business that gets new technology, job
discriptions will change. I always found it was for the better. I
hope photographers do not get the feeling that they will have to
start selling there work cheaper.
I am not going to do that. WHY? Because people hire you for the
images they see on the paper NOT because of the paper. They also
hire you because of your expertise. There will be no differance
with everyone having a digital camera then there is now with
everyone have a film camera. People have point and shoot cameras
that take good pictures but a good photographer will create great
photographs I feel with digital the photographer will have more
freedom to create with the camera, more then he or she ever had
before. As a result of this I feel your cost should go higher NOT
lower.
Digital just gives you more control of your work from start to finish.
I have been photographing professionaly for only 8 years but found
that photographers have some trouble raiseng there prices because
of the fear they will lose jobs. I have been rasing my prices every
year and found that I am just as busy as before, but have differant
clients that I work with(better). Please remember if you do not
raise your prises at least 3% each year you will be lossing money
because of the cost of living.
I see great things ahead for Photographers and the industry If they
take advantage of it.

William Mayer
Shel Ray Studios

Stinky said:

At one time it required much to be a photographer. For most people
shooting was a process of learn as you grow. Often you would get
your film back will all kinds of interesting surprises. There was
no auto focus, auto exposure, no ttl, and most of all no instant
feedback other than polaroids. Much has changed. In the world of
digital feedback gives you the ability to correct or change final
to any way you really want it to be. The test preview is not some
imitation but an actual image that can be used as the final. I can
tell you how many times the Polaroid was one of the best shots.

The ability to edit right on the spot saves time in shoot extra to
make sure you got it or to cover your butt is not needed any more.
The camera manufactures have created slogans like, "so easy just
point and shoot".

No more guessing at exposures. No more trips to the lab. No more
polaroids. No more wondering if it is sharp. No more in a lab
smelling chemicals. No more darkrooms. A new paradigm.

As I see it digital in one way is wonderful and exciting and on the
other a dawn of the extinction of the way it was and all businesses
that were of the past. No more film. No more labs. No more
trays, timers and chemicals. All of them million dollar businesses.

Photographer now becomes retoucher, designer, printer and computer
genius. Creativity is now opened up to the imagination.

Clients already do not want to pay us really what we are worth now
can use their own cameras to shoot and if it not right they can
change it on the spot. Or the kid right out of school gives it
away to get the sample in their book. Photos for free! You see it
really didn't cost anything. You don't have this great overhead in
film, processing and Polaroid. Makes it easy to have any Joe with
a camera say he is a photographer. (This is not to say with the
invention of auto everything that this does not already exist.)
I know you are saying that it take a lot more to be a photographer
and I agree full heartedly. What my point is that with more and
more automation available the volume of photographer increase and
the injury to the profession increases in direct proportions.

As a group we already give away far too many of our rights. Fear
has kept us at the same prices for editorials as 20 years ago!
Though the price of everything around us has increased you can
always find a good photographer who will give it away for next to
nothing. Will digital kill the wounded market all together? Will
retouching be an expected part of the process? How about prepress?
Will designers become photographers? Or will photographers become
designers? Why will the art director not just shoot it himself?

Much of what I am talking about is already happening. The bread
and butter is disappearing, freeing up shooters to do other things.
Some will die and others will fine new way to capitalize on all the
new services they can provide their clients. Labs will fold and
the young children will ask what is film?

I know that I have only touched on the issue and find that a PRO
Digital forum is the perfect place to create our future. Please
take time to really think about what you want to say before you
reply because we all need the very best of your thinking as a
community.

Click to expand...

Stinky · Apr 18, 2002

You are one very funny guy!

And your point is well noted. We have all gone thru this before and the cream will always be on top.

Dave Kunze said:
Back when my grandfather made his own emulsion and spread it on
glass to make his photos, I can just imagine his sour grapes when
film and film cameras were introduced. "Counfounded dangburn stuff
is gonna ruin photography!" "Why, any fool with a dollar can claim
he's a photographer by just takin' his tomfoolery to the dang
druggist!" "Just who in tarnation does this Kodak feller think he
is, anyhew?"

And the beat goes on.....

kunza

Stinky · Apr 18, 2002

Thanks for taking the time to post. It is exactly this kind of thinking that forwards the thinking process and helps the photo community. We are the creativity and we need to as a group walk away from that which dose not respect out talent.

Thanks for a great repl,
Stinky

lafinfil said:
lafinfil said:

The other day another photographer and myself shot a wedding , he
shoots colour and I shoot B&W. He always shoots digital but the
client wanted film so he brought out his F5 and went to work. I
can't tell you how many times he checked the back of his camera to
see the proof that isn't there. When you get into the habbit of
checking all the time to see if your doing things right I think
your confidence as a photographer goes down the drain.
MHO

Click to expand...

Stinky · Apr 18, 2002

In a few words you are able to get to the heart of the matter. Thanks so much for your input.

LouV said:
Stinky said:

At one time it required much to be a photographer. For most people
shooting was a process of learn as you grow. Often you would get
your film back will all kinds of interesting surprises. There was
no auto focus, auto exposure, no ttl, and most of all no instant
feedback other than polaroids. Much has changed. In the world of
digital feedback gives you the ability to correct or change final
to any way you really want it to be. The test preview is not some
imitation but an actual image that can be used as the final. I can
tell you how many times the Polaroid was one of the best shots.

The ability to edit right on the spot saves time in shoot extra to
make sure you got it or to cover your butt is not needed any more.
The camera manufactures have created slogans like, "so easy just
point and shoot".

No more guessing at exposures. No more trips to the lab. No more
polaroids. No more wondering if it is sharp. No more in a lab
smelling chemicals. No more darkrooms. A new paradigm.

As I see it digital in one way is wonderful and exciting and on the
other a dawn of the extinction of the way it was and all businesses
that were of the past. No more film. No more labs. No more
trays, timers and chemicals. All of them million dollar businesses.

Photographer now becomes retoucher, designer, printer and computer
genius. Creativity is now opened up to the imagination.

Clients already do not want to pay us really what we are worth now
can use their own cameras to shoot and if it not right they can
change it on the spot. Or the kid right out of school gives it
away to get the sample in their book. Photos for free! You see it
really didn't cost anything. You don't have this great overhead in
film, processing and Polaroid. Makes it easy to have any Joe with
a camera say he is a photographer. (This is not to say with the
invention of auto everything that this does not already exist.)
I know you are saying that it take a lot more to be a photographer
and I agree full heartedly. What my point is that with more and
more automation available the volume of photographer increase and
the injury to the profession increases in direct proportions.

As a group we already give away far too many of our rights. Fear
has kept us at the same prices for editorials as 20 years ago!
Though the price of everything around us has increased you can
always find a good photographer who will give it away for next to
nothing. Will digital kill the wounded market all together? Will
retouching be an expected part of the process? How about prepress?
Will designers become photographers? Or will photographers become
designers? Why will the art director not just shoot it himself?

Much of what I am talking about is already happening. The bread
and butter is disappearing, freeing up shooters to do other things.
Some will die and others will fine new way to capitalize on all the
new services they can provide their clients. Labs will fold and
the young children will ask what is film?

I know that I have only touched on the issue and find that a PRO
Digital forum is the perfect place to create our future. Please
take time to really think about what you want to say before you
reply because we all need the very best of your thinking as a
community.

Click to expand...

btnapa · Apr 18, 2002

I don't know about photography. But it may very well kill the market for light meters.

Haven't used mine in over a year.

Boris

Stinky said:
At one time it required much to be a photographer. For most people
shooting was a process of learn as you grow. Often you would get
your film back will all kinds of interesting surprises. There was
no auto focus, auto exposure, no ttl, and most of all no instant
feedback other than polaroids. Much has changed. In the world of
digital feedback gives you the ability to correct or change final
to any way you really want it to be. The test preview is not some
imitation but an actual image that can be used as the final. I can
tell you how many times the Polaroid was one of the best shots.

The ability to edit right on the spot saves time in shoot extra to
make sure you got it or to cover your butt is not needed any more.
The camera manufactures have created slogans like, "so easy just
point and shoot".

No more guessing at exposures. No more trips to the lab. No more
polaroids. No more wondering if it is sharp. No more in a lab
smelling chemicals. No more darkrooms. A new paradigm.

As I see it digital in one way is wonderful and exciting and on the
other a dawn of the extinction of the way it was and all businesses
that were of the past. No more film. No more labs. No more
trays, timers and chemicals. All of them million dollar businesses.

Photographer now becomes retoucher, designer, printer and computer
genius. Creativity is now opened up to the imagination.

Clients already do not want to pay us really what we are worth now
can use their own cameras to shoot and if it not right they can
change it on the spot. Or the kid right out of school gives it
away to get the sample in their book. Photos for free! You see it
really didn't cost anything. You don't have this great overhead in
film, processing and Polaroid. Makes it easy to have any Joe with
a camera say he is a photographer. (This is not to say with the
invention of auto everything that this does not already exist.)
I know you are saying that it take a lot more to be a photographer
and I agree full heartedly. What my point is that with more and
more automation available the volume of photographer increase and
the injury to the profession increases in direct proportions.

As a group we already give away far too many of our rights. Fear
has kept us at the same prices for editorials as 20 years ago!
Though the price of everything around us has increased you can
always find a good photographer who will give it away for next to
nothing. Will digital kill the wounded market all together? Will
retouching be an expected part of the process? How about prepress?
Will designers become photographers? Or will photographers become
designers? Why will the art director not just shoot it himself?

Much of what I am talking about is already happening. The bread
and butter is disappearing, freeing up shooters to do other things.
Some will die and others will fine new way to capitalize on all the
new services they can provide their clients. Labs will fold and
the young children will ask what is film?

I know that I have only touched on the issue and find that a PRO
Digital forum is the perfect place to create our future. Please
take time to really think about what you want to say before you
reply because we all need the very best of your thinking as a
community.

JohnLund · Apr 18, 2002

lafinfil,

Your post pretty much frames the life of a working pro. It has been a while since I lived the life but you brought back the memory as vividly as anyone I have read. I hope this gang reads and learns from your words and experience.

Thanks,
JL

lafinfil said:
lafinfil said:

The other day another photographer and myself shot a wedding , he
shoots colour and I shoot B&W. He always shoots digital but the
client wanted film so he brought out his F5 and went to work. I
can't tell you how many times he checked the back of his camera to
see the proof that isn't there. When you get into the habbit of
checking all the time to see if your doing things right I think
your confidence as a photographer goes down the drain.
MHO

Click to expand...

Dave Kunze · Apr 18, 2002

You're right about the cream rising. If you give 200 people an easel and paint, there might be one that produces a decent painting. I think you could still give 200 people cameras (of any kind) and very few would turn out what would be considered good photographs by professional standards. (Including me, too much of the time!)

Oh, yeah, no flame intended on my previous post by the way!

kunza

Stinky said:
You are one very funny guy!
And your point is well noted. We have all gone thru this before and
the cream will always be on top.

Ed Scherin · Apr 18, 2002

An excellent point. Owning an instrument that can create technically nice images does not necessarily make one a "photographer". A basic difference between the "pro" photographer (who earns a good living with imagery) and the non-pro is the pro has the ability to create an image that someone else will pay to see. Of course nice hardware helps, but it might be only 25% of the game.

If you look at the galleries forum on this fine website you can see 1000's of technically beautiful images made by wonderful computerized digital lens boxes. Many of these cameras are high dollar "pro" type devices. The vast majority of these images are very banal, ie, puppy dogs, cats, flowers, sunsets, etc. etc. Many will even ooohhh and aaaahhh these images. These images do show the technical aspects of the hardware (I am not denigrating the images per se), but most are unsaleable in the marketplace. In my view only 1-2% of these images that people are proud enough to post are marketable.

It is the pro who creates the unusual image worthy of commerce. It's an aesthetic-creative thing, not a technical thing. The camera is merely a tool to accomplish the vision in the photographer's mind. There is a big difference in the $500 dollar wedding set and the $10,000 wedding set, both shot with the same hardware. Just look at the pictures.

Digital cameras only impact "professional" photography at the very low end of the price sprectrum, because the uncreative "pro" must compete with the uncreative (or creative) amateur who has access to the same automatic hardware.

lafinfil said:
lafinfil said:

The other day another photographer and myself shot a wedding , he
shoots colour and I shoot B&W. He always shoots digital but the
client wanted film so he brought out his F5 and went to work. I
can't tell you how many times he checked the back of his camera to
see the proof that isn't there. When you get into the habbit of
checking all the time to see if your doing things right I think
your confidence as a photographer goes down the drain.
MHO

Click to expand...

flavio d'inca · Apr 18, 2002

We all agree the tools do not make anybody photographer. The problem is that more and more the people who do not recognize the differences and the languages of photography are increasing. Just grab some(too many) "professional photo Magazine" to see what kind of s--t they publish. Another main problem is that people (everybody) do not like to spend, unless they realize the difference between spending and investing in their(company, usually)image. Another big problem is that most (us) photographers are not serious, not unite, not businessmen as we should be. Thats why I'm going to stop (sadly)with this profession. The reason is on what I've just explained.

Stinky said:
At one time it required much to be a photographer. For most people
shooting was a process of learn as you grow. Often you would get
your film back will all kinds of interesting surprises. There was
no auto focus, auto exposure, no ttl, and most of all no instant
feedback other than polaroids. Much has changed. In the world of
digital feedback gives you the ability to correct or change final
to any way you really want it to be. The test preview is not some
imitation but an actual image that can be used as the final. I can
tell you how many times the Polaroid was one of the best shots.

The ability to edit right on the spot saves time in shoot extra to
make sure you got it or to cover your butt is not needed any more.
The camera manufactures have created slogans like, "so easy just
point and shoot".

No more guessing at exposures. No more trips to the lab. No more
polaroids. No more wondering if it is sharp. No more in a lab
smelling chemicals. No more darkrooms. A new paradigm.

As I see it digital in one way is wonderful and exciting and on the
other a dawn of the extinction of the way it was and all businesses
that were of the past. No more film. No more labs. No more
trays, timers and chemicals. All of them million dollar businesses.

Photographer now becomes retoucher, designer, printer and computer
genius. Creativity is now opened up to the imagination.

Clients already do not want to pay us really what we are worth now
can use their own cameras to shoot and if it not right they can
change it on the spot. Or the kid right out of school gives it
away to get the sample in their book. Photos for free! You see it
really didn't cost anything. You don't have this great overhead in
film, processing and Polaroid. Makes it easy to have any Joe with
a camera say he is a photographer. (This is not to say with the
invention of auto everything that this does not already exist.)
I know you are saying that it take a lot more to be a photographer
and I agree full heartedly. What my point is that with more and
more automation available the volume of photographer increase and
the injury to the profession increases in direct proportions.

As a group we already give away far too many of our rights. Fear
has kept us at the same prices for editorials as 20 years ago!
Though the price of everything around us has increased you can
always find a good photographer who will give it away for next to
nothing. Will digital kill the wounded market all together? Will
retouching be an expected part of the process? How about prepress?
Will designers become photographers? Or will photographers become
designers? Why will the art director not just shoot it himself?

Much of what I am talking about is already happening. The bread
and butter is disappearing, freeing up shooters to do other things.
Some will die and others will fine new way to capitalize on all the
new services they can provide their clients. Labs will fold and
the young children will ask what is film?

I know that I have only touched on the issue and find that a PRO
Digital forum is the perfect place to create our future. Please
take time to really think about what you want to say before you
reply because we all need the very best of your thinking as a
community.

lafinfil · Apr 18, 2002

Thank you to Stinky and John Lund for your kind words . When I read the first line of Stinkys post I thought I was going to be in for a flame and was prepared for it because I have been known to have a few strong opinions on the subject of pro work. Stinkys second line made me realize (hope) that my words were taken in a positive manner.Johns comments were appreciated as well I know it was a bit long and that was the edited version. (although not edited for spelling) It was written after a hell week ( standard every other week ) while I was editing images trying to figure out Cumulus ( must have been written for the PC and ported to mac :-0 ) and a few Bass Ales, or as I like to call it , The Fixer

The pros job is not easy and never has been and most who aspire to do it really have no idea. You have to make it look like it easy so your clients don't freak while hell rains down around you and their project. The smart clients know it's not easy and will appreciate your calm under fire. If you wanna be a pro act and think like one.

lafinfil -

(only been on this forum for 2 weeks and already stirring up thestuff - my first post would not go through last night because in regaurds to work for hire I said " Look the b*st*ards in the eye and tell them why"

pro tip of the day - Find out a little more about the clients client and all the project specifics before starting . I shot some work for a regular client a couple years ago. They were beautiful table top set ups - four in the series.

2 days worth of work . They were highly detailed table top set ups showing period artifacts to represent the 40's 50's 60's & 70's . showed up at the museum where we were working - set up the 4x5 lit the set and pulled the polaroids. I was just getting ready to go to film when the account executive showed up ( already had two art directors/stylist there ) Account Ex casually said " Oh you are shooting Kodak film , aren't you ? " No - I usually shoot Fuji Provia. Turns out clients client was Kodak 's " Decades" series puzzles. I drove an hour to camera shop bought untested film drove back unloaded fuji and loaded kodak into the holders and shot the job and worried . Lost a half a day but it was billable time. Can't wait till they ask me what chip I'm shootin.

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